PAF SAM based Air Defense System - News, Discussion & Updates

[JamD]

How does PAF plan to use these air defense systems? As far as I know deconfliction/IFF is difficult/impossible and in an area in a give time you either have your aircraft or you have your air defense active. I say this from looking at Ukraine. Also India shooting down it's own helicopter. For Iran it makes sense to emphasize air defense since they have no realistically capable air force. Russia focuses on them because they have large areas to cover. China focuses on them because they want to make any aircraft flying over mainland impossible - area denial. Famously USA does not have great land based air defenses but has exceptional sea based air defense because those ships are often operating without aircraft cover and when they do I guess USAs battlespace management is top notch.

Which begs my initial question: what does PAF intent to do with all of these air defense batteries? Are there really large regions of Pakistan that can't be covered by aircraft and won't be covered with aircraft? Or is PAF supremely confident in their battlespace management with regards to IFF?

 

[Ak01]

How does PAF plan to use these air defense systems? As far as I know deconfliction/IFF is difficult/impossible and in an area in a give time you either have your aircraft or you have your air defense active. I say this from looking at Ukraine. Also India shooting down it's own helicopter. For Iran it makes sense to emphasize air defense since they have no realistically capable air force. Russia focuses on them because they have large areas to cover. China focuses on them because they want to make any aircraft flying over mainland impossible - area denial. Famously USA does not have great land based air defenses but has exceptional sea based air defense because those ships are often operating without aircraft cover and when they do I guess USAs battlespace management is top notch.

Which begs my initial question: what does PAF intent to do with all of these air defense batteries? Are there really large regions of Pakistan that can't be covered by aircraft and won't be covered with aircraft? Or is PAF supremely confident in their battlespace management with regards to IFF?

I believe Russian rollout of IFF to the equiptment wasnt very comprehensive and their IFF was based off of soviet Parol which was really basic, lacked countermeasures, wasnt very secure and the codes were static and wouldnt be updated. They also lack any proper form of TDL's and C&C whereas atleast for us, all of our assets are interlinked via the ground relays/nodes meaning everyone does have a real time picture of eachother if the mission allows for it. I believe the indian helo had its iff disabled at the time

 

[JamD]

I believe Russian rollout of IFF to the equiptment wasnt very comprehensive and their IFF was based off of soviet Parol which was really basic, lacked countermeasures, wasnt very secure and the codes were static and wouldnt be updated. They also lack any proper form of TDL's and C&C whereas atleast for us, all of our assets are interlinked via the ground relays/nodes meaning everyone does have a real time picture of eachother if the mission allows for it. I believe the indian helo had its iff disabled at the time

I don't know how modern IFFs work. Let's say I launch a missile at an enemy aircraft, but just close by, there is a friendly. Now did the battery have the IFF interrogator, in which case the missile might go for the friendly. Or is the missile doing the interrogation as well?

 

[Yasser76]

I don't know how modern IFFs work. Let's say I launch a missile at an enemy aircraft, but just close by, there is a friendly. Now did the battery have the IFF interrogator, in which case the missile might go for the friendly. Or is the missile doing the interrogation as well?

The devil really is in the detail here. How can we sync different systems from different countries smoothly and ensure infirmation and identification is quick and safe.

I think this could be the reason why in the area PAF is slowly moving away from western SAMs (SPADA/Crotale) and going all Chinese now. Will make things easier I imagine, especially when integrating with J-10CS, J-35s and Chinese radars now

 

[Ak01]

I don't know how modern IFFs work. Let's say I launch a missile at an enemy aircraft, but just close by, there is a friendly. Now did the battery have the IFF interrogator, in which case the missile might go for the friendly. Or is the missile doing the interrogation as well?

just the battery/launcher, but because the missile is constantly being fed guidance data, unless you suddenly stop i think the chances of a hit are lower

 

[Ak01]

The devil really is in the detail here. How can we sync different systems from different countries smoothly and ensure infirmation and identification is quick and safe.

I think this could be the reason why in the area PAF is slowly moving away from western SAMs (SPADA/Crotale) and going all Chinese now. Will make things easier I imagine, especially when integrating with J-10CS, J-35s and Chinese radars now

the PAF is locally upgrading spada not getting rid of it nor crotale

 

[Yasser76]

the PAF is locally upgrading spada not getting rid of it nor crotale

Seems strange, especially consdering how short ranged they are, pretty much obsolete.

HQ-9 and HQ-16 now in Pak service.

HQ-19 has a nearly 2000 mile range. That would mean we could pretty much shoot down Indian planes over Delhi. Chinese version of THAAD.

Chinese systems now in a league of their own.

 

[SD 10]

Seems strange, especially consdering how short ranged they are, pretty much obsolete.

HQ-9 and HQ-16 now in Pak service.

HQ-19 has a nearly 2000 mile range. That would mean we could pretty much shoot down Indian planes over Delhi. Chinese version of THAAD.

Chinese systems now in a league of their own.

do we have hq 19?

 

[Michael]

do we have hq 19?

HQ-19 is currently not for sale.
Mind you, it is currently the only air defense system in the world that can defend against hypersonic missiles (and has been tested in practice). The official Chinese evaluation of it uses the phrase “拱卫京畿”. This means that the HQ-19 is the centerpiece of the Chinese capital's defense.
However, the fact that it was brought out for public display at the Zhuhai Airshow suggests that China already has a more powerful air defense system than it to take over its mission. It also means that it is not far from being ready for export.

 

[Yasser76]

do we have hq 19?

Not yet, but would certainly not discount it from PAF service if China is willing to sell us J-35.

HQ-19 in PAF service would effectively neutralise IAF's entire Western and South Western Air Commands and any Carrier within 1,000 miles of Pak coast.

Indians use the phrase "Game changer" a lot, this, along with Stealth would shift the air balance of power decisively in PAF's favour.

If you stationed it in Western Baluchistan you could shoot down Israeli aircraft and missiles in the Negav desert. Thing is a masterpeice

 

[SD 10]

Not yet, but would certainly not discount it from PAF service if China is willing to sell us J-35.

HQ-19 in PAF service would effectively neutralise IAF's entire Western and South Western Air Commands and any Carrier within 1,000 miles of Pak coast.

Indians use the phrase "Game changer" a lot, this, along with Stealth would shift the air balance of power decisively in PAF's favour.

If you stationed it in Western Baluchistan you could shoot down Israeli aircraft and missiles in the Negav desert. Thing is a masterpeice

thats crazy! Blown my mind........

 

[Yasser76]

thats crazy! Blown my mind........

Yeah, obviously we will need accompanying radar and satellite assets for targeting but China has that. Question is like ICBMs, just because we can does not mean we should. Can be unbalancing for both Israel and India

 

[Ali_Baba]

NRTC
AESA


View attachment 82228
View attachment 82227

How do we know this is indeed an AESA based radar ? Where does it say that ??

( dont get me wrong - i would love it to be an AESA radar, that is real progress, but i am looking for verifiable confirmation ).

If this is indeed an AESA, then PAF has taken a big leap towards being able to build its own AEW&C as it has all the intellectual property for everything else ( datalinks, command and control consoles, secure comms, etc). Sea Sultan project will help Pakistan learn what it needs to do for a home-grown AESA based AEEW&C/AWACs.

Additionally, NRTC does need to look at its industrial design capabilities. This does not look like a robust military product, but a mockup of some description ... ( take a lesson or two from Turkish designed products that do look the business interms of robustness and therefore reliability as a military tool ).

 

[Oscar]

I don't know how modern IFFs work. Let's say I launch a missile at an enemy aircraft, but just close by, there is a friendly. Now did the battery have the IFF interrogator, in which case the missile might go for the friendly. Or is the missile doing the interrogation as well?

The system developed is able to classify tracks fairly well but whether it can prevent the airliner shootdown type incident in Iran is a question mark.

Which is why you see Pakistan more open immediately to airspace shutdown(also easier) than other folks because it relatively a smaller area with much less domestic traffic.

This civil traffic was mentioned as a reason why possibly the wayward brahmos was not launched against citing the Iranian incident as cautionary procedure although I suspect it had to do with capability at the time since its pretty clear you can track a supersonic missiles speed and path along with your airliners.

 

[Awwad]

How does PAF plan to use these air defense systems? As far as I know deconfliction/IFF is difficult/impossible and in an area in a give time you either have your aircraft or you have your air defense active. I say this from looking at Ukraine. Also India shooting down it's own helicopter. For Iran it makes sense to emphasize air defense since they have no realistically capable air force. Russia focuses on them because they have large areas to cover. China focuses on them because they want to make any aircraft flying over mainland impossible - area denial. Famously USA does not have great land based air defenses but has exceptional sea based air defense because those ships are often operating without aircraft cover and when they do I guess USAs battlespace management is top notch.

Which begs my initial question: what does PAF intent to do with all of these air defense batteries? Are there really large regions of Pakistan that can't be covered by aircraft and won't be covered with aircraft? Or is PAF supremely confident in their battlespace management with regards to IFF?

Perhaps its even more complex with the command structure that is in place. There are SAM systems of two different military commands. The army air defense operates LY-80 & H-Q9Ps among other stuff. The airforce has its own line of SAM systems. So if there is a breach of airspace, there must be single command that take cares of it. At such situations you don't have any time that one service communicates with other to hold your horses, we are taking care of it. There's no time for communication, there should be a defined protocol which I hope already should be the case. But I think that as airforce is primary defender of the airspace, so long range SAMs should all be under airforce. The H-Q9Ps under army air defense don't make much sense. Ly-80 and medium to small range SAMs can be in army air-defense to protect specific command centers & installations. HIMAD should be airforce category, they'll know when to scramble fighters or when to use SAM solution. Back in 90s, ADA in every operational base required 6 minutes to be airborne. Perhaps its the same today, enemy knows this window of timing and will do the operation accordingly, so I assume the first responder could be the SAM solution when its a surprise attack and not an all out war. Rules of engagement in an all out war maybe even more tricky.