Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[PakShaheen_79]

I can't tell you how many hits and this is exactly the issue. You have umpires in war games and if you are able to take out all runways of a base, it is accepted that you can't operate from there. However, if there are a dozen hits but mostly on non-critical infrastructure, the base is still operational. So there can't be a single number unless we know where exactly was that hit and what were the resultant losses.

I think we should leave this debate here but I really like the idea about research. I am actually writing 4 research papers for my mid-term assignments about Chinese A2AD against USA and Airpower in South Asia. Also, my proposed thesis topic is "Impact of multi-domain operations on modern airpower" with case studies of conflicts in 2025-26.

I think that kinetic destruction is not at the same level of importance in future conflicts as it was in last century due to the impact of emerging technologies. The examples of WW2 to Vietnam are not exactly applicable today because of the new domains like space, cyber, AI, drones etc. You can do your research about it that whether the same standards of airpower to destroy enemy infrastructure hold valid today or not.

Though basic tenets of airpower remain same, the technologies have an impact on character of warfare and it has changed in my opinion. I won’t piggyback on your hardwork and it will be your intellectual property. I am here if you need any help.

To conclude, I think the kinetic might has its importance a d we have seen the destruction since May around the globe through airpower employment. However, this needs a deeper research whether the target destruction requirement is same as it was in previous wars or we can rely on other assets. E.g, instead of bombing a C2 node, can we use cyber or EW to render it useless? Whatever is our current opinion, we need empirical data to support or negate the hypothesis or research question. We need a problem statement to start with.

Otherwise, I am getting tired of debating same issue again and again. We can happily go on with our lives without engaging each other again

You don't want to discuss further, Ok. I respect that.
Moving to research topics.
Chinese A2AD against USA and Airpower in South Asia. - Are these two different topics of single one?
"Impact of multi-domain operations on modern airpower" - Working on something similar but that's relates Multi-domain, Joint ops, and strategic stability.

Check your DM please.

 

[Oscar]

Well ideally it should not have been PAF's job to be doing things like NASTP or co-producing JF-17s in the first place. A civilian population with a strong STEM base is a basic requirement if we really want to match up to India in the future.

Just importing small batches of expensive (to us) Chinese and Turkish hardware will not cut it.

Ok - who is enabling the civilian population with STEM?
At scale?
What actual accommodations have enabled this since 2006 without running into rubber stamping sharks that want to hoard every opportunity?
And I talk to military aspects otherwise Pakistanis are hustling in both innovative and at times illegal ways despite internet that would make 1990s laugh.

 

[Oscar]

You are mistaken about domestic industry. Or at least, operating with a view of local industry that may have been true in the 1990's, not now.
You are spot on about lack of capacity in military industry though. The solution to that is to engage domestic industry. Strat JV, maybe with NESCOM etc being a desig house and production with private industry.
Doubt the Generals have enough thought.

Please see my post above - it is military industry and military or local tech manufacturing I refer to and unless something has changed since 2024 in some miraculous production of private sector players - we can agree to disagree

 

[Oscar]

Israel is using F16s to launch these platforms, so there is no reason why the Rafales cannot be configured to operate them either(French payment fee pending of course).

Israel has been given the ability to put their own mission computer in F-16s which allows them this freedom to add weapons as needed.

But yes Rafale could launch the system if India asks Dassault although there is less logic to that versus the readily modified in house MKI

 

[SaadH]

Our air fields and logistics are extremely vulnerable to missile barrages, what is the solution apart from basic dispersal ops?

We need something genuinely viable for uninterrupted ops, not a band aid.

Airfields deeper into Balochistan? Mountain complexes?

I can imagine a scenario where India tries to launch 100+ missiles per airbase at the beginning of a war.

Underground shelters ...

 

[Blain2]

Our air fields and logistics are extremely vulnerable to missile barrages, what is the solution apart from basic dispersal ops?

We need something genuinely viable for uninterrupted ops, not a band aid.

Airfields deeper into Balochistan? Mountain complexes?

I can imagine a scenario where India tries to launch 100+ missiles per airbase at the beginning of a war.

I am sure they will try. Moving bases to Balochistan gives some reprieve but spreading the assets across main and forward bases will give more protection.

Second, in the run up to such a conflict, Pakistan too will have very many early warning capabilities and the usual practice is that if any threat is suspected to the air bases, the assets take flight. Second, launching hundreds of air to ground, or surface to surface missiles is not an easy task. You need countless platforms and ground based launchers. Not sure if India is exactly there and while India is preparing for such strikes, it is not easy to be not seen.

Our ADGE will have to be bolstered to address most of the ordnance. As you can see in both the first and second Iran wars, the vast majority of munitions are being countered by air defenses or air based assets. Pakistan will have to improvise and enhance too.

Decapitation strikes against leadership are another concern but this is a two way street. If Indians decide to go up this ladder, their leadership will be fair game and it will clearly be a full-blown war (instead of a limited strike).

 

[rafale]

i wonder whether India could possibly have the OEMs overlook certain weapons integration because they're making big enough purchases.

If i was in the IAF's shoes, i would have looked at the development of those interface pylons the Turks, Chinese and others use. Would streamline integration processes and make it so that they're not dependant on OEM extractions. Sure, the physical aspect of it would still remain, the testing and certification etc, but that could be done by the IAF. The other side would be taken care of by those types of solutions.

I believe the Philippinos were the first to deploy such a solution, i dont remember on what platform, but it was touched on a little bit that they were using "ipad's to drop bombs".

I guess this is where the difference in outlook comes in though. While the questions are valid, like when, how, what platform. The most important takeaway should be that there is an intent to deploy the system, thus our reaction should be how can we degrade its effectiveness, as opposed to cope and take the piss out of the sorry state of the Indians

We countered the MKIs with AMRAAMs in 2019 and responded immediately after Indian attack for tit for tat and made an embarrassment out of their fantasic tea man....

We countered the Rafales and blew them out of the sky in 2025.........yes, we couldnt take them out pre-emptively unless they launched their package first because we are not Israel with Uncle SAM backing, yet their piss poor air force was humbled........yet again. Those 6 years gap they bought new Rafales and this and that, yet had poor performance to show for it.

Point being, PAF does seem to have that competency in it along with those in Army and Navy...... I am sure they will counter the newer emerging threats effectively. With every adventure bhindians go on buying spree and then get embarrassed. Remember, during all these past episodes they always had more money.

Remember, we have a lot of juicy targets just 300-400 km east of our border in Rajasthan and Gujarat........we can make them hurt too.....in fact a lot.

Its not about money, its about having faith.

I do not believe Indians will learn fast enough or competent enough in a short time.....old dogs habits die hard....and indians are literally rabid street dogs.

So have some faith.


There is complete silence on the F-16V front as well........Pakistan is dealing with a lot of shit on its plate....GCC-Iran war.....then Afghanistan......then India. PAF had the 686 million USD F-16 package approved......i am sure they are or have planned better moves after knowing what the bhindians are cooking.

So again, have faith, because Pakistan's past performances give me the reason to believe in that faith.

(Most indians still believe that S-400 shot F-16s while they were on the ground.)

 

[rafale]

India has the engineering talent to be able to create integration pathways via pylons for certain but the don't. Is the issue bureaucracy, end user terms for the Rafale, of the failure of imagination.

The ALBM are a significant threat for sure given their accuracy.

India doesn't have shit. The 0.01% Indian talent realises this and leaves India to go live in USA/Western Europe.

There is not a single weapon or system that was 100% made/designed in India that India used against Pakistan in 2019 or 2025 even. Because they simply don't have the industrial might, contrary to some BS peddling claims.

 

[rafale]

atleast for the second point, with the amount of money India is pouring into france, its a cash cow for their industry, one i suspect theyd be willing to do a bit of gymnastics to keep on their good side.

The winner in France - India is France, not India. French are laughing all the way to the swiss banks.......

 

[rafale]

I am sure they will try. Moving bases to Balochistan give some reprieve but spreading the assets across main and forward bases will give more protection.

Second, in the run up to such a conflict, Pakistan too will have very many early warning capabilities and the usual practice is that if any threat is suspected to the air bases, the assets take flight. Second, launching hundreds of air to ground, or surface to surface missiles is not an easy task. You need countless platforms and ground based launchers. Not sure if India is exactly there and while India is preparing for such strikes, it is not easy to be not seen.

Our ADGE will have to be bolstered to address most of the ordnance. As you can see in both the first and second Iran wars, the vast majority of munitions are being countered by air defenses or air based assets. Pakistan will have to improvise and enhance too.

Decapitation strikes against leadership are another concern but this is a two way street. If Indians decide to go up this ladder, their leadership will be fair game and it will clearly be a full-blown war (instead of a limited strike).

We need ABM........and J-35s fast enough.

I also second you on the idea that Balochistan gives you that strategic depth.....Infact it gives a lot of depth from where your assets can take off, refuel and go for the combat near the border on the east.,......meanwhile providing that safe distance from incoming CM threats and hence enough tracking/warning times.

Yes it will be costly, but a base can easily be established......other than Quetta and Gwader.

 

[Sparten]

Please see my post above - it is military industry and military or local tech manufacturing I refer to and unless something has changed since 2024 in some miraculous production of private sector players - we can agree to disagree

I am not entirely certain as to your expertise in the area. Mine is only as a legal counsel advising in regulatory matters so it is ancilliary, but I have in the past three to four years seen our domestic industry happily absorb capacity to assemble and manufacture EV Cars,solar systens, high-end electronics, three things I remember sitting in meetings with some very smart people and being assured were impossible for us. Lithium Ion battery role out has started

What is needed is straightforward. Incentives. Like was done for them, the private industry has the capacity, the know-how, the trained personnel to be able to do it at scales far exceeding what our state-owned MIL industries can do. We have already seen it in a small way for UAV/UCAV, Woot Tech, and Integrated Dynamics produce stuff which was designed by GIDS and NESCOM but at far greater volumes.

A private industry usually already has the assembly lines (which willl need to be modified or converted, admittedly not a simple task), the managers, engineers and technicians who have the know how how to manage and operate large assembly lines.
Haier, Lucky or PEL have the floor space, the personnel, the know how how to produce stuff in some volume. Something GIDS or NESCOM can't replicate. These have the know how how to design and make in small batches some hiugh end stuff but for truly mass proudction you need large indiustriakl concerns.,

 

[Ibbi32]

i am sorry but id rather have my leaders be on some doomer core than dekhen ge cope

Dekhe ge lekin kuch kare ge nahi

 

[Oscar]

I am not entirely certain as to your expertise in the area. Mine is only as a legal counsel advising in regulatory matters so it is ancilliary, but I have in the past three to four years seen our domestic industry happily absorb capacity to assemble and manufacture EV Cars,solar systens, high-end electronics, three things I remember sitting in meetings with some very smart people and being assured were impossible for us. Lithium Ion battery role out has started

What is needed is straightforward. Incentives. Like was done for them, the private industry has the capacity, the know-how, the trained personnel to be able to do it at scales far exceeding what our state-owned MIL industries can do. We have already seen it in a small way for UAV/UCAV, Woot Tech, and Integrated Dynamics produce stuff which was designed by GIDS and NESCOM but at far greater volumes.

A private industry usually already has the assembly lines (which willl need to be modified or converted, admittedly not a simple task), the managers, engineers and technicians who have the know how how to manage and operate large assembly lines.
Haier, Lucky or PEL have the floor space, the personnel, the know how how to produce stuff in some volume. Something GIDS or NESCOM can't replicate. These have the know how how to design and make in small batches some hiugh end stuff but for truly mass proudction you need large indiustriakl concerns.,

Each of the examples of provide on the private sector side - which to enable from a military production perspective.

What is the incentive for
1. Haier or PEL or even these higher end electronic “manufacturers” to participate in military contracts? Take your next door which has far more depth in this industry and struggled for so long to get its Private sector properly involved beyond rubber stamps

2. Introduce players into a security centric space where more often than not clearances and so on come into play - give you a case in point of two early UAV manufacturers which ended up with their employees background screened.

3. Contract preferences: for a private player to compete with GIDS it needs the ability to go beyond preset bids and contracts - today private players even supplying something as basic bandages end up in commissions and nepotism.

My experience is 2 years within the R&D space, 3 years selling equipment to the military and then beyond that having family that does millions in business with these folks ranging from SPD to FWO.

 

[Ibbi32]

Really wish we had some of our own heavyweight su-30 equivalents with something like air launched F2/smash

 

[studsmart]

Really wish we had some of our own heavyweight su-30 equivalents with something like air launched F2/smash

I have been thinking the same for some time. Now I am of the opinion that a version of JH7B could have been adopted by PAF 15 years ago. Our next bet is KAAN bl3 5.5 gen fighter with TF35000 engine that can fill in that void. Not sure if J35 can fill in that gap