Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[aurelianpilled]

The 4 or more Rafale supposed to be downed are single or dual seat ones ?

single-seaters -> BS 0xx
twin-seaters -> RB 0xx

all downed were single-seaters

 

[side-winder]

Let's assume the middle ground with statements from CDS and Swamy as likely losses(earliest possible testimony from people rightly in the know) then 5 jets is the call.
My guess is that there is definitely more than one Rafale, the other two claims by PAF are based on tracks disappearing but considering LoC and terrain just bugging out at low level is likely to make your track disappear.

However, part of the PL-15s two way DL is that it sends a ping back when it detonates due to prox fuze(with self destruct being a different packet) which is why the PAF had awarded it as a kill.

Prox fuze detonation is a high indicator of a kill but it can also indicate the aircraft perhaps survived to get back home. Perhaps not in a condition to show flyable yet but it is possible it could emerge again.

There is also the likelihood that much like the AIM-120C kill award on MKi a detonation did happen and like the MKi the Rafale made it back to a base but whether it landed safely or not is another matter. The MKi claim was moved based on supposed HUMINT by PAF to a made it controllably to base but crashed on landing attempt(While Conjecture if true those IAF pilots should be ideally recognized even if privately for their attempt to bring a jet back).
Bear in mind the 120C just sends a signal of prox fuze into the blind while the PL-15 to my limited understanding transmits it to the launching aircraft via the two-way DL.

There is another angle to it - the IAF may have had causalities(not losses) in the way of overstressed airframes(although that is an impossibility with FBW aircraft like the Rafale that would not allow it) or more likely airframes are being repurposed for serial number changes.
That assumes that the IAF chief is being strong handed to show Modi in a positive light no matter what.
At this point, the PAF can continue claiming ten and unless the IAF shows the Rafale's (if doesn't have 36 then it is a problem for the Chief) for count then it contradicts its own people earlier and sets up further embarrassment on serial spoof accusations.
Alan Warnes has written a biased article, but his intro did make a fair point.

Both the PAF and IAF pilots are highly trained and professional - but if the leadership places its faith totally in technology instead of training and tactics - results like this are inevitable.

One addition to the process of kill confirmation - is the appearance of SAR helos on Ops screen - which in some cases you will pick on your screen - some cases, not - considering low flight profile and the terrain limitations.

Particularly true for the Bhatinda case - I don't know if Warnes was shown that kill - perhaps not, otherwise he must have mentioned it - this by the way is in addition to another indicator in Bhatinda case (very interesting indicator which wasn’t there for other cases) - i don't know if someday PAF officially mentions about it through any channel (print media / TV programs / retired officers etc).

Similarly, some intermittent tracks of SAR helos were picked in the upper parts in north as well - however, we have to consider the hilly terrain and relatively close proximity of multiple kills in the North so perhaps a bit difficult to say (atleast for me) - which Heli for which rescue.

 

[kimjongun]

One addition to the process of kill confirmation - is the appearance of SAR helos on Ops screen - which in some cases you will pick on your screen - some cases, not - considering low flight profile and the terrain limitations.

Particularly true for the Bhatinda case - I don't know if Warnes was shown that kill - perhaps not, otherwise he must have mentioned it - this by the way is in addition to another indicator in Bhatinda case (very interesting indicator which wasn’t there for other cases) - i don't know if someday PAF officially mentions about it through any channel (print media / TV programs / retired officers etc).

Simillarly, some intermittent tracks of SAR helos were spotted in the upper parts in north as well - however, we have to consider the hilly terrain and relatively close proximity of multiple kills in the North so perhaps a bit difficult to say (atleast for me) - which Heli for which rescue.

the national park wreckage specualtion is sounding very true...there are cases within india of planes lost by IAF found after seven years due to difficult terrain like the AN 32

 

[Ak01]

Post in thread 'Azerbaijan Air Force Becomes Fourth Operator of JF-17 Fighter Aircraft, President Aliyev Confirms'

Sep 25, 2024

There's one more feature. I've asked multiple times on this forum and no one seems to know what it is.

JF-17 block 3 prototype has its leading edges painted in radome grey. Is there anything installed there or its just a coincidence?

Oh I know because I was curious and asked them:
So with the addition of the AESA radar, which has a lot more power than the original radar, the IFF system was suffering from interference. So they moved the IFF antennae from the nose into the leading-edge flaps. Since the antennae are inside the leading-edge flaps, they must be composite to allow EMF...

• JamD

• 

I noticed same thing a while back but apparently it's just IFF as per JamD

me and JamD had discussed this, its extremely unlikely to be IFF

 

[Ak01]

By the way the issue is not only with space but also with engine power of JF17C. Very limited ECM suite can be installed? but Thanks for this observation

i think this is a thing that is really overblown.

Remember, modern aesa based equiptment is really power efficient, they probably had an even greater power budget to play with now that everything is aesa based

 

[BonPlan]

He is 100 percent an indian guy resisding in france..he is also present on strategic frontier(an indian forum) while having very large bias....everybody knows that any western or french guy wont defend india on a pakistani froum as much as he does

You are wrong.
Why hidding me as a french on an indian forum if I'm indian ?
You can also find me on a french forum (I was banned for politic issues some years ago, but you can find thousand of my french answers, and even my location in France ...) :

 

[BonPlan]

g

grounded?? so does that mean the video of the bhatinda guys is fake im talking aboutt The video made at night...clearly talking about the death of a civillian and pilot....and the mica pilon dumbo...you just cant be making shit about the rafale in bhatinda...the other 2 rafales wreckages hasn't been on the internet due to the terrain of kashmir and possibility of them downed over the national park as said by ACM AURENGZEB IN CONFERENCE....BUT ATLEAST THE RAFALE IN BHATINDA IS TRUE AND YOU CANT COVER IT UP BY BIRD STRIKE...If it had been a bird strike the IAF definitely would have said so....also all the pl15s had the warhead exploded not intact does this make you think something???

MICA is also installed on M2000....

Yes one Rafale was lost. all the rest is forumers fantasms.

 

[Yasser76]

MICA is also installed on M2000....

Yes one Rafale was lost. all the rest is forumers fantasms.

BS001, BS021, BS022, and BS027

 

[Musings]

You are wrong.
Why hidding me as a french on an indian forum if I'm indian ?
You can also find me on a french forum (I was banned for politic issues some years ago, but you can find thousand of my french answers, and even my location in France ...) :

Dont attempt to promote other forums my little french member drinking Cabernet Sauvignon and eating snails and garlic bread.

 

[Jungibaaz]

View attachment 147531

so until now, you have written at least 6 paras for my at least 6 lines!

I have highlighted few biases (could be survival, sampling and confirmation bias)
that's not productive or output driven or shall I say, trait of someone who precisely and surgically knows what he is talking about!


Point proven?!!!! sure, list 10 more functionalities and look smart and bash some one who is not educated on these matters!

I may lack deep expertise, and my explanations relied on metaphors and analogies, while you appear highly knowledgeable (im not an engineer!). Please read the following carefully:


How was blip speed determined in a specific jamming environment? Which came first: the characterization of the jamming-speed output, or the generation of the blip?


Your writing sometimes reads like the work of someone who has skimmed scientific journals but hasn’t fully engaged with the phenomenon. You give the impression of not being willing to explain the blip in alternative terms. Different interpretations change how concepts are applied; using technical terms without rephrasing them limits practical understanding. A short list of names and specifications does not substitute for a full understanding of system behavior.


Additionally, you seem to assume that a blip’s characteristics are identical across different jamming environments. That assumption requires justification.


I am not claiming Spectra failure. Rather, I am highlighting a piece of information that was previously unrecognized. Yet you keep asserting that “the spectra has not failed” and keep labeling my analogies as vague (I could do the same, line by line for each of yours argument!).

I feel dismissed (and ridiculed). I don’t think a productive conversation is possible under these conditions with you ever because the way you write!

you know a lot probably, I cannot doubt it, you may!

but it does'nt look like that, the way you have written biases in paras!

thats borderline fan boy stuff and not scientific approach!

sorry!

Next time (which wont be any!), try to develop arguments (there are'nt any as shown by highlighting biases!) beyond my analogies. It’s your understanding — so why belittle mine when I’m not even an engineer?


That’s ridiculous and boyish!

Respectfully sir, I have read your posts now thrice over, start to finish, and I cannot understand what you’re saying here regarding blips and jamming and where or what you took issue with in previous posts.

I thought @Oscar ’s post was quite self explanatory. SPECTRA is basically a combination of sensors designed to identify threats and use countermeasures in response. By practising EMCON and not using its own FCR to paint the Rafale meant that the RWR on the Rafale did not alert the pilot properly, SPECTRA works in normal instances, but in this tactic of the PAF it probably failed to recognise datalink guidance being done by an AWACS or identify this as a threat.

As for this blip stuff you keep mentioning, I think you need to be a bit more technical and specific about what exactly you’re talking or asking about.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

View attachment 147566

Respectfully sir, I have read your posts now thrice over, start to finish, and I cannot understand what you’re saying here regarding blips and jamming and where or what you took issue with in previous posts.

I thought @Oscar ’s post was quite self explanatory. SPECTRA is basically a combination of sensors designed to identify threats and use countermeasures in response. By practising EMCON and not using its own FCR to paint the Rafale meant that the RWR on the Rafale did not alert the pilot properly, SPECTRA works in normal instances, but in this tactic of the PAF it probably failed to recognise datalink guidance being done by an AWACS or identify this as a threat.

As for this blip stuff you keep mentioning, I think you need to be a bit more technical and specific about what exactly you’re talking or asking about.

dude!


what comes first 1. time of the blip 2. existence of the blip?!!

that too in a very specific jamming env!


how hard is that?!!!


now see, the numbers of words you have written and compare with my words!

cant you see the contrast!

I could be wrong, as I am not an engineer, but one cannot rubbish just a simple question by uttering non sensical standard terminologies

simple questions beg simple answer, rule of science... all i see here are scientific imposters!

sorry to be rude (kehna kya chaty ho ! sunna kya chaty ho?!)

 

[kimjongun]

You are wrong.
Why hidding me as a french on an indian forum if I'm indian ?
You can also find me on a french forum (I was banned for politic issues some years ago, but you can find thousand of my french answers, and even my location in France ...) :

i aint hiding you on an indian forum as france but as a conman...

 

[Jungibaaz]

dude!


what comes first 1. time of the blip 2. existence of the blip?!!

that too in a very specific jamming env!


how hard is that?!!!


now see, the numbers of words you have written and compare with my words!

cant you see the contrast!

I could be wrong, as I am not an engineer, but one cannot rubbish just a simple question by uttering non sensical standard terminologies

simple questions beg simple answer, rule of science... all i see here are scientific imposters!

sorry to be rude (kehna kya chaty ho ! sunna kya chaty ho?!)

Define what you mean by “specific jamming environment” please. What exactly and what type of jamming are you alluding to?

A “blip” is simply the output displayed to an operator by the processing system of the radar. If a signal exists above a certain threshold at a point in time, a “blip” is a visual representation that is output. Your question on its own makes no sense, at least not without further elaboration.

 

[kimjongun]

MICA is also installed on M2000....

Yes one Rafale was lost. all the rest is forumers fantasms.

then why did you wrote up BS that one rafale was grounded due to maybe a bird strike etc?also the m2000 was shotdown in pampore and crashed on an empty building it has a 20 min long video about it

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

Define what you mean by “specific jamming environment” please. What exactly and what type of jamming are you alluding to?

A “blip” is simply the output displayed to an operator by the processing system of the radar. If a signal exists above a certain threshold at a point in time, a “blip” is a visual representation that is output. Your question on its own makes no sense, at least not without further elaboration.

okay

now I get it!

thanks alot!