Pakistan Army Small Arms

[gangsta_rap]

Are you sure you aren't mixing up the CW 39 and the BW 20?

CW39 uses HK roller delayed firing mechanism

 

[Toxic]

CW39 uses HK roller delayed firing mechanism

Yeah but it's 7.62x39, I don't think it's the G3 replacement.

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

CW39 uses proven designs and HK tooling that POF is entirely familiar with. And I wouldn't call it a battle rifle like the G3. It's clearly an assault rifle.

INSAS was an attempt from scratch with some know how about the L1 SLR and AK rifles fused into it. CW39 seems like a measured attempt that constraints itself to concepts that POF is familiar with instead.

India would have been better off going with the FNC rather than the INSAS.

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

Yeah but it's 7.62x39, I don't think it's the G3 replacement.

Intended as an AK replacement.

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

Older article which I;m sure some here may have already seen regarding the BW20:

New BW20 Roller-Delayed Battle Rifle from Pakistan Ordnance Factories

The roller-delayed blowback action seems to have faded into obscurity. Until now. Meet BW20, the new battle rifle designed by Pakistan Ordnance Factories.

www.thefirearmblog.com

 

[Tremain]

Hard to believe Indians would actually produce such junk

Not really.

It's a another insas waiting to happen

Pakistan... even at it's worst.... will never do an "INSAS". Maybe a "meh, what was the need" but never a bloody INSAS.

Yeah but it's 7.62x39, I don't think it's the G3 replacement.

AK ki replacement hai bhai.... not the G3. Assault rifle, not Battle rifle.

Intended as an AK replacement.

Yep. Our own AK.

AK were like open-source weapons (unlike proprietary tech western guns). Being commies, they did not believe in patents. But now they are not commies any more. So they get tummy-aches if someone rips off an AK.

So we get something better. Maybe even marginally better, but it's all our own.

Behold! The CW39 Assault Rifle

CW39 Assault Rifle as It's visible from the video has a similar HK's stamp sheet metal design, and most probably uses a roller delayed

defensetalks.com

 

[Toxic]

Not really.


Pakistan... even at it's worst.... will never do an "INSAS". Maybe a "meh, what was the need" but never a bloody INSAS.


AK ki replacement hai bhai.... not the G3. Assault rifle, not Battle rifle.


Yep. Our own AK.

AK were like open-source weapons (unlike proprietary tech western guns). Being commies, they did not believe in patents. But now they are not commies any more. So they get tummy-aches if someone rips off an AK.

So we get something better. Maybe even marginally better, but it's all our own.

Behold! The CW39 Assault Rifle

CW39 Assault Rifle as It's visible from the video has a similar HK's stamp sheet metal design, and most probably uses a roller delayed

defensetalks.com

"I don't think it's a G3 replacement"

 

[Tremain]

"I don't think it's a G3 replacement"

An assault rifle is meant for use against ambush artist Afghans. A battle rifle is meant for use against Indians who can't even ambush their own butt.

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

Meanwhile, from a year ago:

Indian Army Orders Second Batch of 73,000 SIG716 Rifles — Global Defense Insight

The Indian Army ordered a fresh batch of the 73,000 SIG716 rifles, after an initial contract of the 72,400 rifles. This latest contract is

defensetalks.com

Your Indian cousins are hedging that with a large purchase of AK-203s made locally under license from the Russia.

 

[Tremain]

made locally under license from the Russia.

"Made locally under license" in India means, "we make crap and then we poo in it .. our secret sauce... and pretend it's like the real thing".

From aircraft to guns, "under license" in the Indian vocabulary doesn't have the same metals, the same quality, they same anything, as the real thing.

Let them go broke trying to make whatever they want, however they want.

And they are not my cousins. Not even genetically. My cousins came from Greece, Mongolia and Iraq, Thanks.

 

[RafaleSlayer]

5.56 is a better intermediate cartridge than 7.62x39, there's a reason why it and the 5.45 became the standard rounds for the soviets and NATO, 7.62x39 is outdated, it's much heavier than 5.56 without much difference in performance being worse in some regards actually, the M4 and 5.56 is already the standard rifle and round for the SSG and special troops,

IMO if they want to keep the 7.62x51 they also need to make optics standard issue, there's not much point in a having a heavy battle rifle with a lot stopping power over long distances without actually having the ability to target contacts over long distances with just Iron sights.

a caliber performance is not a simple one on one comparison. Each caliber has their pros and cons and depends on the role in which they are employed. No caliber is a silver bullet that will fit all situations. Having just one platform and one caliber limits the optimal utilization, that is why most militaries use multiple platforms and multiple calibers and use the one most suited for the situation. 545 and 556 are suited for mid range (300 metes max) engagements, they lack the stopping power due to lighter projectile however allow more rounds to be carried and allow quick follow up shots in an urban environment. They are not so effective in ranges beyond 300 meters and non-urban setting like say in mountainous areas of Baluchistan or KPK when dealing with insurgents. In such scenarios heavier projectiles like 762x51/54 perform better as they carry more energy at longer distances and have more stopping power.

Its a never ending debate because these calibers are not one or the other, its the one that suits the scenario.

The ideal round, at least IMO, would center around a 6.5mm bullet. The 6.5mm is superior to both the 5.56 and the 7.62 in terms of accuracy, ballistics, and impact energy. There is a reason why USSOCOM has fielded the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge in a number of situations including at one point in Afghanistan.

I have a 6.5C built on an AR-308 (you know it as AR-10) platform. The rifle was built for competition purposes and is capable of holding sub-MOA accuracy at 600 yards with no issue. I'd have no problem shooting it in LR competitions out to and including 1000 yards.

The cartridge has less recoil than the 7.62x51 and has been the cartridge of choice for a number of winners at the US National High Power Matches at Camp Perry, OH. Including by one of the two guys who designed it.

It came about more than a decade ago and i have not seen an traction towards it by any military branch.

 

[Toxic]

a caliber performance is not a simple one on one comparison. Each caliber has their pros and cons and depends on the role in which they are employed. No caliber is a silver bullet that will fit all situations. Having just one platform and one caliber limits the optimal utilization, that is why most militaries use multiple platforms and multiple calibers and use the one most suited for the situation. 545 and 556 are suited for mid range (300 metes max) engagements, they lack the stopping power due to lighter projectile however allow more rounds to be carried and allow quick follow up shots in an urban environment. They are not so effective in ranges beyond 300 meters and non-urban setting like say in mountainous areas of Baluchistan or KPK when dealing with insurgents. In such scenarios heavier projectiles like 762x51/54 perform better as they carry more energy at longer distances and have more stopping power.

Its a never ending debate because these calibers are not one or the other, its the one that suits the scenario.

It came about more than a decade ago and i have not seen an traction towards it by any military branch.

Again you are mixing up 7.62x39 with 7.62x51, I am talking about 5.56 vs 7.62x39 intermediate cartridges.

 

[RafaleSlayer]

Cost shouldn't be as big of a issue since you don't need to purchase as many machine guns, M249 and Minimi are already the standard LMGs for the SSG so I don't know why it would be a issue politically, but adopting it would involve making 5.56 the standard round.

Changing the caliber means dumping the stock of existing stock of ammo in billions of rounds, setting up new factories for the new round then build up the stocks for the next three to five years besides a ton of other issues to deal with.
7.62 is the best battle round in Pak-India scenario. Smaller rounds may be and are being used in counter insurgency ops.

 

[RafaleSlayer]

Not really.


Pakistan... even at it's worst.... will never do an "INSAS". Maybe a "meh, what was the need" but never a bloody INSAS.


AK ki replacement hai bhai.... not the G3. Assault rifle, not Battle rifle.


Yep. Our own AK.

AK were like open-source weapons (unlike proprietary tech western guns). Being commies, they did not believe in patents. But now they are not commies any more. So they get tummy-aches if someone rips off an AK.

So we get something better. Maybe even marginally better, but it's all our own.

Behold! The CW39 Assault Rifle

CW39 Assault Rifle as It's visible from the video has a similar HK's stamp sheet metal design, and most probably uses a roller delayed

defensetalks.com

BW20/CW39 ugly designs. Makes no sense to put a fixed cheek rest with collapsible stock

 

[Tremain]

BW20/CW39 ugly designs. Makes no sense to put a fixed cheek rest with collapsible stock

Men who look like toads often end up with beautiful wives. "Ugly" is a subjective word.

Does it kill people? Yes sir, it does. What more do I want?

The weapon will evolve, no doubt. It's not something that will spray oil into your face every time it is fired (as the INSAS does). Cheek rests can be removed, butt stocks can be changed.