NationalistPKDude132
Trusted Member
New World Order NWO isnt a fake conspiracy anymore
Pakistan-India Conflict 2025: News Updates and Discussion
- Thread starter Ali_Baba
- Start date
Master Chief
Trusted Member
Sorry Baibers, this analogy is poorly conceived.
Firstly, the Moors were not native to the. Iberian peninsula, while we Pakistanis are entirely as equally "native" as Indians are. (N.B. whether any of the Pakistani or north Indian communities are truly "native" is a different discussion - see other discussions on Harappans, Aryans and their origins regarding that particular rabbit hole).
Secondly, while it is true that peninsular white "Spaniards" (visigoths, iberians, gauls, basques and a whole bunch of other europeans) were in control of Iberia immediately prior to the Moorish occupation, it cannot be stated that gangetic vedic hindus were in control of the lands that constitute Pakistan. There is no factual basis for the suggestion that either hindutva as a faith group or the political entity controlled by Delhi can claim to "reconquer their historic lands" - because Pakistan, the Indus Valley, the frontier lands to the west of the IV, and the northern regions were never controlled from any national or imperial capital as part of a unified hindu nation.
Master Chief
Trusted Member
Why are you concerned about the article then if nothing new is here?
samsite84
Registered Member
Many forum members lack comprehension skills which is exhausting.
In this specific instance - what part of my post is showing "concern" about the article. In fact, I argued that even if we agree with the Pakistan narrative (6-0), it has little impact on ground reality. Furthermore, both sides have enough proof to claim "victory".
The larger point is: nothing changed in life of an average Indian/Pakistani. Would it not be prudent to discuss the long-term impact of the conflict vs. living in the past.
Lets say it becomes universally accepted that Pakistan won. Good - rejoice, celebrate. But get back to work - of nation building/improving people's lives.
lightning f57
Trusted Member
IMO main reason was Indian planners living on their own hubris thinking their planes are better and that they would not be targeted deeply within their own airspace.Bakhts need to look away now....
How did Pakistan shoot down India’s fighter jets?
New clues suggest Indian errors and Chinese arms may both be to blame
Share
Photograph: Getty Images
Jul 16th 2025|Akalia Kalan|6 min read
They were used to hearing fighter jets from a nearby airbase. But this noise was louder and less familiar: a roar punctuated by repeated explosions. Residents of Akalia Kalan, a village in northern India, leapt from their beds as it grew closer in the early hours of May 7th. Outside, they saw a ball of flames pass overhead and crash into a nearby field. The wreckage was clearly identifiable as a fighter. Two bystanders died, according to villagers. The two Indian pilots had ejected earlier and were found, injured, in fields nearby.
India has yet to confirm it officially but this was one of a number of its fighter jets that were lost in a four-day conflict with Pakistan in May. The Indian government disputes Pakistan’s claim to have shot down six warplanes, including three of its new French Rafale jets. But foreign military officials believe that five Indian aircraft were destroyed, including at least one Rafale. And Indian military officers, while refusing to confirm numbers, do now admit to losing some aircraft. What is more, they are starting to indicate that the losses may have stemmed from Indian errors rather than technological deficiencies.
The admissions are significant because China is Pakistan’s top arms supplier. This was the first conflict in which advanced Chinese fighters and missiles were used against Western and Russian equivalents. America and its allies are especially interested, as China could use much of the same weaponry in a potential war over Taiwan. Early reports suggested that the decisive factor was the superiority of Pakistan’s Chinese-made J-10 fighters and its PL-15 air-to-air missiles. India does appear to have underestimated those. And China may have also tipped the balance by providing Pakistan with early warning and real-time targeting data.
But given India’s success later on in the fight, the bigger problem might have been how India used its own fighters on that first night. One of the latest and most controversial twists in the saga came in June when Indian news outlets aired a recording of Captain Shiv Kumar, India’s defence attaché in Jakarta, addressing a seminar earlier in the month. He said that India lost some aircraft only because its political leadership had ordered its air force not to hit Pakistan’s air defences. Instead, they targeted only militant sites on the first day. “After the loss, we changed our tactics and we went for their military installations,” Captain Kumar said.
That followed an acknowledgment from General Anil Chauhan, India’s chief of defence staff, in a television interview at the end of May that India lost some planes on the first night of the conflict because of “tactical mistakes”. He went on to say that India had rectified its errors after two days, allowing all its fighters to fly again and to strike targets in Pakistan from long range. India did have more success later in the conflict when its missiles overcame Pakistan’s air defences and hit several of its military bases.
One theory among foreign officials is that on the first day, India did not mount its Rafales with Meteor long-range air-to-air missiles (presumably thinking that they were beyond the reach of Pakistan’s fighters or that Pakistan’s initial response would be less escalatory). Another is that India’s fighters did not have the right electronic jamming equipment, up-to-date software or relevant data to protect them from Pakistan’s new weaponry. A third, and broader, explanation is that India lacked the necessary “mission data” to understand how Pakistan could identify Indian plans, pass data to its own jets and guide missiles to their targets.
Fight club
But if the fighters were made vulnerable because of orders from political leaders to only hit militant targets, as Captain Kumar suggests, then responsibility would lie more with the government of Narendra Modi. While consistent with India’s approach to other recent clashes with Pakistan, in which India has sought to avoid escalation, such orders would not have taken into account recent improvements in Pakistan’s capabilities. That suggestion is now fuelling opposition allegations of a cover-up. “Why is the PM refusing to preside over an all-party meeting and take the opposition into confidence? Why has the demand for a special session of parliament been rejected?” asks Jairam Ramesh, a spokesman for the opposition Congress party.
There are implications, too, for India’s biggest defence deal in years. It is expected to launch a long overdue tender for 114 fighters this year. And Dassault, the French manufacturer of Rafales, is a leading contender alongside Sweden’s Saab and America’s Boeing and Lockheed Martin. But some Indian military figures have suggested that the Rafales under-performed in the recent conflict. Others complain that Dassault is reluctant to share the source code for the Rafale’s software, preventing India from adapting the aircraft to suit its own needs. Since the conflict, Chinese diplomats are also said to have been badmouthing Rafales to other prospective buyers and urging them to buy Chinese fighters, instead.
Dassault executives are anxious to reassure countries that have bought Rafales, including Egypt, Indonesia, Qatar and the UAE, as well as potential future customers. But the company is constrained in what it can say publicly, for fear of angering India. It is also unclear to what extent Dassault has been permitted to take part in India’s investigation into the episode. Eric Trappier, Dassault’s aviation chairman, has dismissed as “simply untrue” Pakistan’s claims to have downed three Rafales. “When the complete details are known, the reality may surprise many,” he told a French magazine in an interview published on June 11th. He also said that the Rafale was “far better than anything China currently offers”.
The French government is also under pressure to explain what would be the first confirmed loss of a Rafale in combat. Marc Chavent, a member of France’s parliament, submitted a written question to the government in late May voicing concern that the SPECTRA electronic-warfare system on India’s Rafales failed to detect or jam Pakistan’s Chinese-made PL-15 air-to-air missiles. He asked if newer Rafales would have an upgraded version of SPECTRA and whether France was considering developing a fighter designed specifically for electronic warfare. SPECTRA’s performance is also of interest to countries that use or have ordered Rafales.
Back in Akalia Kalan and nearby villages, relatives of the dead and injured have more immediate concerns. Raj Kumar Singh, who died of head injuries from one of the blasts, left behind a wife, two children and a 70-year-old mother with little means to support themselves. They have not yet been offered compensation or been visited by local officials or politicians. Instead, says one villager, the authorities “want to bury news of this crash”. ■
How did Pakistan shoot down India’s fighter jets?
New clues suggest Indian errors and Chinese arms may both be to blamewww.economist.com
The IAF did however put in place a new maneuver during times of conflict called exit stage right 200km away.
Watandar
Trusted Member
Good question. I would say summary from this thread so far :
1. Indian pride is deeply wounded but they remain steadfast admirers of Israel and are seeking to replicate its strategies against Pakistan, including attacking it in short skirmishes as punishment. India will also double down on its sponsorship of terrorists and criminals inside Pakistan.
2. These Indian attacks will be BrahMos missile launches from deep inside India and possibly naval action as well.
3. Pakistani high commands needs established SOP's to be able to respond quickly to Indian attacks. No more dithering as we saw in the previous 4 day war.
4. Pakistan needs to think about how it can also go up the escalation ladder and have stamina for conflict beyond just two weeks
5. Pakistan's economy and divided and backward politics remain its biggest weaknesses.
6. Pakistan Air Force carries disproportionate burden in this new normal and is India's top target, alongwith the AIr Defense.
Oscar
Moderator
There is an impact to ground reality in terms of future expenditures and economic impact along with direction of next conflict.
But in general the overall result from a “monetary” value perspective is negative for India but from a “strategic posture” perspective is fairly neutral or in certain cases a net “loss” for Pakistan in terms of no more negotiation left on IwT.
alphaOmega
Registered Member
Where are the satellite photos by MizarVision or other Chinese commercial companies to show damage to any Indian military infrastructure.
Where is this large scale destruction in Beas where the Brahmos storage was destroyed, or this carcass of the S-400 radar which was allegedly taken out?
Jango007
Registered Member
Bakhts need to look away now....
How did Pakistan shoot down India’s fighter jets?
New clues suggest Indian errors and Chinese arms may both be to blame
Share
Photograph: Getty Images
Jul 16th 2025|Akalia Kalan|6 min read
They were used to hearing fighter jets from a nearby airbase. But this noise was louder and less familiar: a roar punctuated by repeated explosions. Residents of Akalia Kalan, a village in northern India, leapt from their beds as it grew closer in the early hours of May 7th. Outside, they saw a ball of flames pass overhead and crash into a nearby field. The wreckage was clearly identifiable as a fighter. Two bystanders died, according to villagers. The two Indian pilots had ejected earlier and were found, injured, in fields nearby.
India has yet to confirm it officially but this was one of a number of its fighter jets that were lost in a four-day conflict with Pakistan in May. The Indian government disputes Pakistan’s claim to have shot down six warplanes, including three of its new French Rafale jets. But foreign military officials believe that five Indian aircraft were destroyed, including at least one Rafale. And Indian military officers, while refusing to confirm numbers, do now admit to losing some aircraft. What is more, they are starting to indicate that the losses may have stemmed from Indian errors rather than technological deficiencies.
The admissions are significant because China is Pakistan’s top arms supplier. This was the first conflict in which advanced Chinese fighters and missiles were used against Western and Russian equivalents. America and its allies are especially interested, as China could use much of the same weaponry in a potential war over Taiwan. Early reports suggested that the decisive factor was the superiority of Pakistan’s Chinese-made J-10 fighters and its PL-15 air-to-air missiles. India does appear to have underestimated those. And China may have also tipped the balance by providing Pakistan with early warning and real-time targeting data.
But given India’s success later on in the fight, the bigger problem might have been how India used its own fighters on that first night. One of the latest and most controversial twists in the saga came in June when Indian news outlets aired a recording of Captain Shiv Kumar, India’s defence attaché in Jakarta, addressing a seminar earlier in the month. He said that India lost some aircraft only because its political leadership had ordered its air force not to hit Pakistan’s air defences. Instead, they targeted only militant sites on the first day. “After the loss, we changed our tactics and we went for their military installations,” Captain Kumar said.
That followed an acknowledgment from General Anil Chauhan, India’s chief of defence staff, in a television interview at the end of May that India lost some planes on the first night of the conflict because of “tactical mistakes”. He went on to say that India had rectified its errors after two days, allowing all its fighters to fly again and to strike targets in Pakistan from long range. India did have more success later in the conflict when its missiles overcame Pakistan’s air defences and hit several of its military bases.
One theory among foreign officials is that on the first day, India did not mount its Rafales with Meteor long-range air-to-air missiles (presumably thinking that they were beyond the reach of Pakistan’s fighters or that Pakistan’s initial response would be less escalatory). Another is that India’s fighters did not have the right electronic jamming equipment, up-to-date software or relevant data to protect them from Pakistan’s new weaponry. A third, and broader, explanation is that India lacked the necessary “mission data” to understand how Pakistan could identify Indian plans, pass data to its own jets and guide missiles to their targets.
Fight club
But if the fighters were made vulnerable because of orders from political leaders to only hit militant targets, as Captain Kumar suggests, then responsibility would lie more with the government of Narendra Modi. While consistent with India’s approach to other recent clashes with Pakistan, in which India has sought to avoid escalation, such orders would not have taken into account recent improvements in Pakistan’s capabilities. That suggestion is now fuelling opposition allegations of a cover-up. “Why is the PM refusing to preside over an all-party meeting and take the opposition into confidence? Why has the demand for a special session of parliament been rejected?” asks Jairam Ramesh, a spokesman for the opposition Congress party.
There are implications, too, for India’s biggest defence deal in years. It is expected to launch a long overdue tender for 114 fighters this year. And Dassault, the French manufacturer of Rafales, is a leading contender alongside Sweden’s Saab and America’s Boeing and Lockheed Martin. But some Indian military figures have suggested that the Rafales under-performed in the recent conflict. Others complain that Dassault is reluctant to share the source code for the Rafale’s software, preventing India from adapting the aircraft to suit its own needs. Since the conflict, Chinese diplomats are also said to have been badmouthing Rafales to other prospective buyers and urging them to buy Chinese fighters, instead.
Dassault executives are anxious to reassure countries that have bought Rafales, including Egypt, Indonesia, Qatar and the UAE, as well as potential future customers. But the company is constrained in what it can say publicly, for fear of angering India. It is also unclear to what extent Dassault has been permitted to take part in India’s investigation into the episode. Eric Trappier, Dassault’s aviation chairman, has dismissed as “simply untrue” Pakistan’s claims to have downed three Rafales. “When the complete details are known, the reality may surprise many,” he told a French magazine in an interview published on June 11th. He also said that the Rafale was “far better than anything China currently offers”.
The French government is also under pressure to explain what would be the first confirmed loss of a Rafale in combat. Marc Chavent, a member of France’s parliament, submitted a written question to the government in late May voicing concern that the SPECTRA electronic-warfare system on India’s Rafales failed to detect or jam Pakistan’s Chinese-made PL-15 air-to-air missiles. He asked if newer Rafales would have an upgraded version of SPECTRA and whether France was considering developing a fighter designed specifically for electronic warfare. SPECTRA’s performance is also of interest to countries that use or have ordered Rafales.
Back in Akalia Kalan and nearby villages, relatives of the dead and injured have more immediate concerns. Raj Kumar Singh, who died of head injuries from one of the blasts, left behind a wife, two children and a 70-year-old mother with little means to support themselves. They have not yet been offered compensation or been visited by local officials or politicians. Instead, says one villager, the authorities “want to bury news of this crash”. ■
How did Pakistan shoot down India’s fighter jets?
New clues suggest Indian errors and Chinese arms may both be to blame
Excellent article …. We have the video proof of four wreckages …. Makes you wonder what the fifth aircraft name was ?
Jango007
Registered Member
How can shooting down of your ENTIRE cream of the crop fighter aircrafts can come even close to you guys shooting some long range missiles and hitting some tin sheds , cause craters on the runway and destroying possibly one or two radar masts …..
I mean is this how you guys put yourself to sleep every night saying chal yaar Rafael to gira per hum nay khada to dala runway par….
samsite84
Registered Member
@Jango007 missing the forest for the trees ehh
It doesn't matter what equivalence one draws or if you agree with it or not. From an Indian perspective, it can be as simple as - you loose tools of war during war but we hit them hard on targets of significance. According to most Indians, India has been on the receiving end of terror emanating from outside the country. And in 99%+ cases, India hasn't responded in kind to the killing of innocent citizens. For Indians, a kinetic action such as the skirmish, is worthy even if India looses a few $B worth of equipment
Having said that, I have a larger point to make. It doesn't really matter how one side wants to paint it (in-fact the outcome is such that both sides can claim victory and rest is minutiae). What matters is that there is no change on the ground except as @Oscar pointed, India suffering a some economic loss and Pakistan loosing the position to influence IWT. I personally don't think IWT will impact Pakistan as much - its more for visuals.
Still visuals/intent matter and I would argue India showed that much more vs. Pakistan which was largely defensive (and rightly so given lesser resources but optics are not that great).
Jango007
Registered Member
I have to respectfully agree mostly with what you are saying but I still do not understand how visuals of aircrafts burning all over Kashmir and Punjab in front of thousands of Indians are equal to some grainy pictures of radar masts missing ( or not) on some remote Pakistani bases.
Indians are the nation of visuals and show. They have their movies to convey every occasion and sounds to celebrate events . I am just curious as to what the visuals of burning wreckage and sounds of exploding planes have done to their morale and how as a nation it has affected their perception of a military power embarrassed in front of the world .
hydrabadi_arab
Trusted Member
Pakistan thrive in state of war. Look around, Chinese now call you Iron brother. Before operation suhagraat it was one sided affair.
US president will visit Pakistan after 20 years.
World respect power and Pakistan killing 4 Rafales with Chini maal changed the world.
samsite84
Registered Member
Look at it this way:
There have been 3 "surgical strikes" in response to terrorist actions in the last 10 or so years. India has progressively crossed more and more "red lines" and also suffered more. Still the resolve of political, military and people at large is to take this type of action.
I see three primary reasons:
1. Fatigue - years and years of no action has caused such a situation
2. Economic and geopolitical rise - while later is debatable the former is not. And it gives you freedom to write bigger checks. You can also take "disproportionate losses"
3. Nationalism/National pride revival - I am not sure whats the reason behind it, but Indians now are more confident of their past/are reclaiming heritage. One lesson is that we can't be sitting and taking punishment from actors outside the country as happened during the British Raj, invasions (and I don't think its Muslim per se - could have been any other faction/group)
As an "limited outsider" I see huge potential for Pakistan to improve if relationship with India improves and India to benefit a lot as well but I am very skeptical of anything positive happening because of the forces in both societies. FWIW, I saw Vajapayee and later Modi visit Pakistan with an offering to improve ties. Vajapayee got Kargil, Modi got Pathankot. It's hard for Indians to reconcile when that happens.
And yes, I don't think India is a saint who won't be meddling in Pakistan affairs or that Indians weren't single-handedly caused 1971 separation but I would still argue that onus is on Pakistan to improve the ties - because like it or not size matters and unfortunately in Pakistan's case the edge in terms of geopolitical clout, technology or economy etc. is just not there...
Watandar
Trusted Member
The usual one sided Indian perspective from bloody *****. Indians have made a few dollars and had their ego stroked by westerners and now think they can do to Pakistan what Israel inflicts on Palestine...well Indians have made an error there and will continue to receive the beatings they have gotten so far until they realize they are nothing. Doesnt matter Indian size or bank accounts, India even in the past was rich and yet was conquered and ruled over many times. Future will be the same.
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