Pakistan’s JF-17 Thunder Bags Another Fighter Deal, Media Says; India’s LCA Tejas Banks On Massive IAF Contract

[Awwad]

MKI is an Indian custom built Flanker, infact Russian MSs were derived from IAF's MKI version and ordered for Russian Airforce.

Russia already has Oniks to use and Zircon hypersonic missiles, so importing BrahMos from India makes no sense for them. While Philippines purchased BrahMos recently.

That's what am saying. SU-30MKI is liscence manufacturing. Its a product of Russia. SU-30 existed and was flying already when india became its customer. India never was part of its intialization, concepts or paid anything for SU-30s design & development. India is solely a user. JF-17 is Pakistan's own program. It was built for Pakistan. Pakistan started it, it paid for its R & D. Whenever JF-17s will be sold by either Pakistan or China both will get profits. That's not the same with SU-30s. Your friend was comparing liscence production with owned projects. Both are completely different.

As far as Russia not using Brahmos is concerned. That was a reply to another of your friend who made a ridiculous point Which I already explained in another that why China don't use JF-17. JF-17 was tailor made for PAF requirements with PAF inputs. China's requirements were different, they didn't wanted a light weight aircraft to be mainstay of their airforce.. So basically different requirements is the key. Otherwise, anyone can make a sweeping statement that since Russia don't use Brahmos then it means that Brahmos has to be really bad. OR perhaps russia has alternatives or different requirements.

 

[Jaeger]

Comparing petty 0.0000001% of shares with JV and equal ownership program is as hilarious as anything. Did you approached Apple with your concept that you wanted a phone for your own use and perhaps later other users can buy it too ? Did you send money to apply for R & D. Kind of degraded mentality you are showing is epic. All to deny that JF-17 is own platform of Pakistan. LOL!! Epic!

0.0000001 % is just a number. The basic principal remains the same.

If I were to own 50 pecent all apple stocks out there. It would still not make me capable designing Iphones.

And I could never design next generation of Apple iphones, on my own.

Which is kind of why, Pakistan is looking to buy its next generation of fighter off the shelf from China, instead designing one of its own,

Because they never learnt anything from theJF 17 project that they can apply in designing an aircraft.

 

[CallSignMaverick]

LOL, Who told you that Joint venture does not mean ownership??? Both owns the project at 50% each.

50% equity each, keyword here is equity.

 

[CallSignMaverick]

That's what am saying. SU-30MKI is liscence manufacturing. Its a product of Russia. SU-30 existed and was flying already when india became its customer. India never was part of its intialization, concepts or paid anything for SU-30s design & development. India is solely a user.

India actually was involved, that's how MKI variant was born. And SM variant was created by Russia based on MKI. Although we don't have any ownership of design, and we build it under license.

JF-17 is Pakistan's own program. It was built for Pakistan.

It isn't.

Pakistan started it, it paid for its R & D. Whenever JF-17s will be sold by either Pakistan or China both will get profits. That's not the same with SU-30s. Your friend was comparing liscence production with owned projects. Both are completely different.

His Point isn't about profits. Its about indigenisation.

As far as Russia not using Brahmos is concerned. That was a reply to another of your friend who made a ridiculous point Which I already explained in another that why China don't use JF-17. JF-17 was tailor made for PAF requirements with PAF inputs. China's requirements were different, they didn't wanted a light weight aircraft to be mainstay of their airforce.. So basically different requirements is the key. Otherwise, anyone can make a sweeping statement that since Russia don't use Brahmos then it means that Brahmos has to be really bad. OR perhaps russia has alternatives or different requirements.

That is correct, but then China does require to retire its old Migs at some point, and with whom will it replace with then? Will they go for Xiaolong (JF17) or decide to spend some more resources to get a new aircraft done. Unless they decide to go for additional Medium weight fighters, they should ideally replace them with Xiaolongs. But will they?

 

[Jaeger]

IF JF-17 isn't Pakistani than how come Tejas is indian? Okay maybe 20% indian?? The mega component, the most criticial & largest part of the aircraft i.e its engine comes from the US. So according to your logic, 60% of Tejas is already American then there is whole list of components imported from all over the world. The whole ejection seat comes from outside, the EW modules, the weapon systems have french components. Come on, you really serious? Apply same logic everywhere.

Both JF-17 & Tejas are owned by Pakistan & India but both uses imported parts. Period.

Tejas is an Indian aircraft with certain parts it of being sourced from other nations.
Grippen is a Swedish aircraft with certain parts of it being sourced from other nations.
Similarly how Jf 17 is a Chinese aircraft with certain parts of it being sourced other nations for eg Martin baker ejection seats from UK, engines from Russia, Gsh 23 mm cannon from Russia etc.

All these aircrafts were designed and developed in the respective countries.

What part of Jf 17 was developed in Pakistan?

 

[CallSignMaverick]

IF JF-17 isn't Pakistani than how come Tejas is indian? Okay maybe 20% indian?? The mega component, the most criticial & largest part of the aircraft i.e its engine comes from the US. So according to your logic, 60% of Tejas is already American then there is whole list of components imported from all over the world. The whole ejection seat comes from outside, the EW modules, the weapon systems have french components. Come on, you really serious? Apply same logic everywhere.

Both JF-17 & Tejas are owned by Pakistan & India but both uses imported parts. Period.

And we use American engines because our own isn't ready, or I should say, adequately funded.
This was 13 years ago.

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And Uttam radar afaik is not used due to its size.


But these things can be used and replaced by in future when they're mature. And we're doing it.


Is there any pakistani equivalent? Nope. Calling something indigenous doesn't make it. So stop comparing LCA with JF17.

 

[guangdongt]

0.0000001 % is just a number. The basic principal remains the same.

If I were to own 50 pecent all apple stocks out there. It would still not make me capable designing Iphones.

And I could never design next generation of Apple iphones, on my own.

Which is kind of why, Pakistan is looking to buy its next generation of fighter off the shelf from China, instead designing one of its own,

Because they never learnt anything from theJF 17 project that they can apply in designing an aircraft.

Learning how to design an airplane and how to manufacture it all is a huge leap. You are clearly confused about the concept. AMCA's design is great, but how to truly implement it is the key. This requires a huge local manufacturing industry chain. Pakistani design can learn from it, but the biggest difficulty lies in manufacturing. Poor materials and substandard production equipment can all lead to your design being pushed back. Underdeveloped manufacturing industry can also result in stagnant design capabilities. Your Tejas in India has been delayed for so long, with such a long development cycle. Isn't the final design of the appearance based on your manufacturing capabilities? Otherwise, how could you have improved the MK2? Design and manufacturing are inherently cyclical, and it is absurd for Pakistan to not learn design from JF17. The key is that Pakistan needs to convert the design drawings into actual manufacturing capabilities. Independent manufacturing of fighter jets involves a huge industrial chain, which consumes huge funds. This is the difficulty

 

[Awwad]

If I were to own 50 pecent all apple stocks out there. It would still not make me capable designing Iphones.

Why are you ridiculing yourself in order to reject the facts?

I ask again, did you approached Apple with concept of Iphone ??? Tell me?

Did you contributed millions of dollars in its R & D ??? Tell me.

Can you rebrand and sell new Iphones officially from your end ??

Can you do anything with iphone company at all ??


For JF-17 and Pakistan, all of above is true, Pakistan actually started the project. It took its concept & requirements with China and then it contributed all the R&D cost and contributed immensely with its rich knowledge & expertise in combat / mission profiles etc majorly from F-16 experience. I already explained all this in other comment.

JF-17 is Pakistan's own project that's a well known fact. How come anyone can even try to dispute that LOL! Okay Even if I assume for a moment that there is ZERO technical, QA, test flying, invaluable combat experience, western systems knowledge sharing, or anything at all... Even if its just financial as Pakistan did in all costs of R & D and development, even that only makes it a project owner. Other contributions were obvious as Pakistan knew that this aircraft will be mainstay of its airforce and wanted best for it.

 

[Awwad]

View attachment 41264




And we use American engines because our own isn't ready, or I should say, adequately funded.
This was 13 years ago.

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

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And Uttam radar afaik is not used due to its size.
View attachment 41265

But these things can be used and replaced by in future when they're mature. And we're doing it.
View attachment 41266

Is there any pakistani equivalent? Nope. Calling something indigenous doesn't make it. So stop comparing LCA with JF17.

hahahahaha......................

This image is as hillarious as anything. My God, dear indians.. How you can be so naive. I mean atleast try to be honest with yourselves. There is simply unbelievable.
I mean they put indian flag on even the smallest & most insignificant of the components like some antenna, probe or tyres I mean put all those indian flags all over it and placed just one small flag for the entire Engine ??????? Is tyre equivalent to the engine??? That image is a BIGGEST LIE as it is pretending india's contribution. Whoever did that is the most dishonest person ever.... You know that the kind of indian flags you are posting on that image for petty components, only engine has 100s of components with far more complexity than those. This is not how you portray contribution. Your lies and falsehood is EXPOSED badly with suchh image. That's a true image of indians being dishonest with everything. What a lie you have thrown out LOL!

You can't label it yours with such deception. If you are honest then only put labels over major components like Engine, the avionics, the metal work (frame & composites). Here you will have only one indian flag. Putting indian flag on every needle, every pin and screw and putting same size flag to entire engine shows your honesty with yourselves. LOL!
Here I helped you update it a bit. Focus on major components only kiddo.

 

[guangdongt]

This is the amca design diagram I saw on an Indian forum, which clearly left a space for IRST. You discussed the impact of this, and you also discussed the development of eots/eodas in India. Isn't this a typical example of manufacturing capacity affecting design? It is the biggest absurdity to say that Pakistan has not learned design from jf17. How Pakistan can transform the learned design into the actual production capacity of the country, which has exceeded the capacity limit of JF17. The foundation for completely independently manufacturing aircraft and complete equipment comes from thousands or hundreds of industries, and India has not achieved this on its own

 

[CallSignMaverick]

More ooga booga

hahahahaha......................

This image is as hillarious as anything. My God, dear indians.. How you can be so naive. I mean atleast try to be honest with yourselves. There is simply unbelievable.
I mean they put indian flag on even the smallest & most insignificant of the components like some antenna, probe or tyres I mean put all those indian flags all over it and placed just one small flag for the entire Engine ??????? Is tyre equivalent to the engine??? That image is a BIGGEST LIE as it is pretending india's contribution. Whoever did that is the most dishonest person ever.... You know that the kind of indian flags you are posting on that image for petty components, only engine has 100s of components with far more complexity than those. This is not how you portray contribution. Your lies and falsehood is EXPOSED badly with suchh image. That's a true image of indians being dishonest with everything. What a lie you have thrown out LOL!

You can't label it yours with such deception. If you are honest then only put labels over major components like Engine, the avionics, the metal work (frame & composites). Here you will have only one indian flag. Putting indian flag on every needle, every pin and screw and putting same size flag to entire engine shows your honesty with yourselves. LOL!
Here I helped you update it a bit. Focus on major components only kiddo.

View attachment 41276

 

[warking2005]

This is the amca design diagram I saw on an Indian forum, which clearly left a space for IRST. You discussed the impact of this, and you also discussed the development of eots/eodas in India. Isn't this a typical example of manufacturing capacity affecting design? It is the biggest absurdity to say that Pakistan has not learned design from jf17. How Pakistan can transform the learned design into the actual production capacity of the country, which has exceeded the capacity limit of JF17. The foundation for completely independently manufacturing aircraft and complete equipment comes from thousands or hundreds of industries, and India has not achieved this on its own
View attachment 41277

Don't worry NASTAP is cooking currently wait

 

[Awwad]

More ooga booga

hahaha, am still laughing... That image was GOLD! I mean putting indian flag over each needle, screw, antenna, or tyre and just one small image at the side for the entire ENGINE?????? This is super hilarious!! I mean if you had to label every single thing in frame instead just one label then you should have labelled every single component of the engine too. Otherwise, your diagram should only show the major components. You can't show minor & major components with same scale. You can't do it especially if you are trying to portray the contributions as Its clearly a deception.

F-404 is asking, Just one label for me ? why you left 100s of components in it are without a label. You even give priority to label an indian flag against tyre or antenna or a probe but just one small flag at the end for entire Engine??? As if engine is like a small probe attached at the exhaust of aircraft LOL!!

Now go ahead and put flag labels below and then adjust your hilarious diagram :

 

[guangdongt]

Don't worry NASTAP is cooking currently wait

I'm not worried about this, because our confidence comes from our constantly updated manufacturing capabilities. I just want to clarify that JF17 is a product of cooperation between the two countries in that era. If both sides do not benefit, this project will not develop smoothly because its progress is actually obvious

 

[Awwad]

It isn't.

I think you need to file a case at ICJ. As the world know as a fact that JF-17 is Pakistan's own program. Both China & Pakistan knows it. Both have 50% ownership. If sore losers have difficulty in digesting the facts then only option is to take your case to ICJ or UN LOL!