Pakistan's real problem is very poor institutions - not political

[Goenitz]

Pakistan's problem is only One overbearing institution.

That is valid at so many levels like capacity, management, etc. How can one institution do all even if they have all the good inentions? See, the ISPR budget and quality of songs and videos. They have to outsource it. Army own bands can't do the job. Even DHAs are pale compared to Bahria, but safer.

Watch any video of a drive of any city in Pakistan on youtube. You will see not only that traffic rules are not followed but also how public becomes utterly selfish on the road, makes its own rules and isn't bothered about own safety or others. Taking short cuts, going opposite one-way in streets, illegal u-turns, no indicators, beeping all the way, parking wrongly without ay consideration for others, overtaking with risks causing accidents etc.

That is what I call a real lack of law. It is the single biggest challenge to state writ. Just outside of Punjab Parliament, near the Panorama center, parking is overcharged. People make their own gates in the streets, make speed breakers, make extended ramps, etc. Govt just don't consider it as a challenge to its writ and then people fill the void to land grabs, violence, and more.

Let me give you a challenge, try maintaining 100% road rules with proper lane driving, following roundabout law and other road laws, making it from point A to point B, driving in Pakistan. Tell me your experience and then relate it with everyday life of a person in Pakistan.

That is why I debated that there are just a few who follow consciousness. Mainly people are driven by fear, love, incentive, etc. That is why the Quran repeatedly emphasizes hell and heaven as Allah knows the best how people function.
So, we need laws and their implementation. No single nation is good enough to be all self-disciplined and well-mannered. It is the law and the environment. It is people see people do thing besides they should be directed or channelled towards it. Good and bad are contagious. If people see the rule of law, they conform and make themselves align to the new norm.
See people's conformity.

 

[Signalian]

That is what I call a real lack of law.

That is called real lack of following the law.

 

[Goenitz]

That is called real lack of following the law.

I actually meant there absence of govt (law). I get what you saying.

 

[PakAl]

@AsaRad1

Watch any video of a drive of any city in Pakistan on youtube. You will see not only that traffic rules are not followed but also how public becomes utterly selfish on the road, makes its own rules and isn't bothered about own safety or others. Taking short cuts, going opposite one-way in streets, illegal u-turns, no indicators, beeping all the way, parking wrongly without ay consideration for others, overtaking with risks causing accidents etc.

This tells a lot about psyche of a nation.

An average person in Pakistan takes out frustration of his life on the road since he has something under his control which can also be used as a weapon - a vehicle- which he can control but he has no control over his life, job, boss, wife, etc.

Now take for instance someone following rules on the road, it will take him 1 hour to complete a 20-min trip and he will be braking and saving himself from others all the time who will be breaking rules.

Those who take shortcuts on roads, also make short cuts in life.
Those who have no patience on roads, are also impatient in life.
Those who honk incessantly also curse in life.
Those who throw litter from car, also throw garbage in streets.

Let me give you a challenge, try maintaining 100% road rules with proper lane driving, following roundabout law and other road laws, making it from point A to point B, driving in Pakistan. Tell me your experience and then relate it with everyday life of a person in Pakistan.

Good idea, I would say try even something like queueing up in front of a shop or keeping Pakistan clean, Wasim Akram tried but whenever he went back after cleaning, It was full of rubbish again, the people are responsible not the government or army. If you remember Governor House was used as a picnic area for the people of Pakistan, why has that not been repeated? Did anyone see the photos of before and after the picnic, absolutely appalling. If you mention to people about following traffic rules, keeping roads clean or queueing, people laugh at you like your a stupid useless person. It would take generations to change the mindset, good luck to the youths.

 

[Signalian]

Good idea, I would say try even something like queueing up in front of a shop or keeping Pakistan clean, Wasim Akram tried but whenever he went back after cleaning, It was full of rubbish again, the people are responsible not the government or army. If you remember Governor House was used as a picnic area for the people of Pakistan, why has that not been repeated? Did anyone see the photos of before and after the picnic, absolutely appalling. If you mention to people about following traffic rules, keeping roads clean or queueing, people laugh at you like your a stupid useless person. It would take generations to change the mindset, good luck to the youths.

Agreed

 

[PakAl]

Agreed

Is it possible for a highly undisciplined nation to be a rising power, to be the tiger of economy and success, to not be corrupt, and have a professional successful government running its affairs. I highly doubt it.

 

[Fatman17]

That is valid at so many levels like capacity, management, etc. How can one institution do all even if they have all the good inentions? See, the ISPR budget and quality of songs and videos. They have to outsource it. Army own bands can't do the job. Even DHAs are pale compared to Bahria, but safer.

That is what I call a real lack of law. It is the single biggest challenge to state writ. Just outside of Punjab Parliament, near the Panorama center, parking is overcharged. People make their own gates in the streets, make speed breakers, make extended ramps, etc. Govt just don't consider it as a challenge to its writ and then people fill the void to land grabs, violence, and more.

That is why I debated that there are just a few who follow consciousness. Mainly people are driven by fear, love, incentive, etc. That is why the Quran repeatedly emphasizes hell and heaven as Allah knows the best how people function.
So, we need laws and their implementation. No single nation is good enough to be all self-disciplined and well-mannered. It is the law and the environment. It is people see people do thing besides they should be directed or channelled towards it. Good and bad are contagious. If people see the rule of law, they conform and make themselves align to the new norm.
See people's conformity.

The laws are there. There is no implementation. Heck we don't even follow the constitution of the country. Forget the rest.

 

[Goenitz]

The laws are there. There is no implementation. Heck we don't even follow the constitution of the country. Forget the rest.

That is my point. If people see around themselves that nobody respects the law, they won't. People follow what is the norm, and not what is in books. If army, bureaucrats, police, politicians, etc use force or loopholes then everybody chooses that way or their affiliation. Nobody will trust the courts or any right way.
Such as if sifarish is required then why should I study extra hard? No incentive/reward/ambition then no dopamine release and we become passive like Shah Jahna or an ambitionless public like in the early days of communism. People stopped becoming Drs as the pay was universal. Both laborers and Drs were getting equally paid.
More on dopamine

Good idea, I would say try even something like queueing up in front of a shop or keeping Pakistan clean, Wasim Akram tried but whenever he went back after cleaning, It was full of rubbish again, the people are responsible not the government or army.

That starts with good schooling. No govt has invested enough in education, and even less in hygiene training or civic sense training. The education budget mainly goes for some construction (school or renovation) as MNAs earn through kickbacks on tenders. That is why PPP always says they have built this many schools or PMLN this many roads. Now, it is like asking students to create poetry when the education system is based on cramming or rote learning. So garbage in, garbage out.

It will hurt some but we are spending 44% of our GDP (directly or indirectly) on our armed forces. it includes installments on loans taken for defense/army, pensions, subsidies, etc. Anyway, you can see some results with good discipline, professionalism, maintained cantonments, etc.

Wasim's effort is commendable but it is just a disprin curing cancer. Lastly, you need consistent efforts for any meaningful results (not undermining Wasim's work).
See Indian's effort. Afroz is a lawyer. It is not an overnight thing.

See their water-preserving effort.

 

[Fatman17]

That is my point. If people see around themselves that nobody respects the law, they won't. People follow what is the norm, and not what is in books. If army, bureaucrats, police, politicians, etc use force or loopholes then everybody chooses that way or their affiliation. Nobody will trust the courts or any right way.
Such as if sifarish is required then why should I study extra hard? No incentive/reward/ambition then no dopamine release and we become passive like Shah Jahna or an ambitionless public like in the early days of communism. People stopped becoming Drs as the pay was universal. Both laborers and Drs were getting equally paid.
More on dopamine

That starts with good schooling. No govt has invested enough in education, and even less in hygiene training or civic sense training. The education budget mainly goes for some construction (school or renovation) as MNAs earn through kickbacks on tenders. That is why PPP always says they have built this many schools or PMLN this many roads. Now, it is like asking students to create poetry when the education system is based on cramming or rote learning. So garbage in, garbage out.

It will hurt some but we are spending 44% of our GDP (directly or indirectly) on our armed forces. it includes installments on loans taken for defense/army, pensions, subsidies, etc. Anyway, you can see some results with good discipline, professionalism, maintained cantonments, etc.

Wasim's effort is commendable but it is just a disprin curing cancer. Lastly, you need consistent efforts for any meaningful results (not undermining Wasim's work).
See Indian's effort. Afroz is a lawyer. It is not an overnight thing.

See their water-preserving effort.

All this comes with education and awareness about these topics and there are many. I totally understand and agree with you. It's very frustrating at times.

 

[PakAl]

That starts with good schooling. No govt has invested enough in education, and even less in hygiene training or civic sense training. The education budget mainly goes for some construction (school or renovation) as MNAs earn through kickbacks on tenders. That is why PPP always says they have built this many schools or PMLN this many roads. Now, it is like asking students to create poetry when the education system is based on cramming or rote learning. So garbage in, garbage out.

It will hurt some but we are spending 44% of our GDP (directly or indirectly) on our armed forces. it includes installments on loans taken for defense/army, pensions, subsidies, etc. Anyway, you can see some results with good discipline, professionalism, maintained cantonments, etc.

Wasim's effort is commendable but it is just a disprin curing cancer. Lastly, you need consistent efforts for any meaningful results (not undermining Wasim's work).
See Indian's effort. Afroz is a lawyer. It is not an overnight thing.

See their water-preserving effort.

I dont know about all of Pakistan but in AJK we have primary/high schools at nearly every area, in my area in the village we have girls college, in another area we have medical college and university on the mountains. Literacy rate is over 90%, The enrollment percentage is over 95% for girls and boys, we do suffer in the number of graduates, that's because people have to leave home and live in cities to study, another issue is after college they'll be going to foreign lands.

But yet still we have the same mentality, they can do the talk but not action, they follow around the corrupt leaders, mafias because that is where the money and power is, the educated class does corruption in different way where its hard to detect, they still follow short cuts, do safarish and the rest. If you speak to them they will say that's how Pakistan works and they think yourself as a naive stupid person.

 

[PakAl]

 

[MirageBlue]

My uncle had problem with NADRA and with some business he also said pak is like stuck in old ages, no sane person would waste time there.

Whole country is like bunch of uncles at a tea gathering doing whatever lazy stuff but they call it idara

ZERO PROFESSIONALISM, ZERO STANDARDS. They flex non achievements. He say India will **** them up in few decades.

It won't even take a few decades.

 

[CynicalPakistaniCritic]

This is 100% true but no one has mentioned any solutions?

The solution is actually world class education provided to your entire population.

They need to mentally catch up with the rest of the first world mentally. Leave behind that old mentality that's slowly evolving from Mughal, British occupational times from villages.

 

[nahtanbob]

A very long time back, before we were born, there was a man called Ayub Khan, who saw that the country Pakistan's existence is always under danger from India. That made military the preferred institution of the country. No military, no Pakistan. On the other hand, the system of personal contacts (sifarish) and bribery was inherited from the Mughals, thrived in British times to some extent and then flourished from 1947 in the civil sector. This is evident from the fact how 65 years on Malik Riaz challenged if even a small business can be set up without bribery and sifarish. Coming back to Ayub Khan- the man overtook the country and did what he thought was best as in building industrial complexes within the country for progression using resources from the Army as he thought that Civil departments of Govt and private companies/business were inept and failure.

Prior to 1962 India was no military threat to Pakistan. Indian military was underfunded. I will let folks chime in on that

the real issue is lack of commitment to universal education

 

[ziaulislam]

Military whole narrative is that we aren't corrupt and it's civilians who are corrupt

This narrative may sell in front of military families but general public who dealt with military knows it's the other way around

The institutions got worse simply because those institutions got military men

Wapda didn't got corrupt because of civilians it got corrupt because of military

Wapda was fine till ayub and followed start adding military attache and retire to it

Facts are always there.. undistorted and visible, anyone can check on This and it will be visible

Why is military corrupt because it's remanant of British..in british era military was corrupt an institution design to rule and plunder India not to protect it

The only solution to Pakistan issue is rewrite the military..remove it British roots

Remove British raj, remove Batmans, remove luxuries, BMWs, gulf courses, mansions and retirement jobs in wapda pia and railway
Remove huge lands, dhas and islands