Rafale M Deal: India and France to Fast-Track Negotiations After Elections

[Guru Dutt]

ToT was not requested when you purchased M2000.

40 millions : the package was definied by IAF. If it wasn't convenient why ordering ?
In the 40 millions there is part of ToT, an increase in life span and I suppose the HAL work. It is not the Dassault bill.

it dose not matter who was asking for what point was there were heavy kickbacks involved in the Mirage2000 upgrade and that was done by UPA goverment and by using IAF & HAL and arm twisting dassault cause they were ready to transfer the full mirage2000 line to india and talks were already going and had NDA came back to power we could have been making Mirage2000 in india for lesser that 40 million with engine in india ..... but alas we have corruption

 

[paindu]

it dose not matter who was asking for what point was there were heavy kickbacks involved in the Mirage2000 upgrade and that was done by UPA goverment and by using IAF & HAL and arm twisting dassault cause they were ready to transfer the full mirage2000 line to india and talks were already going and had NDA came back to power we could have been making Mirage2000 in india for lesser that 40 million with engine in india ..... but alas we have corruption

I have different take on M2000 production line transfer to India and we made the right choice to not go with that. Operationally, maybe it was good decision to shore up some numbers in short term, however not a strategic long-term decision.

French basically wanted to milk India for outdated fighter and use that money for Rafale R&D. I’ll give you an example, Dassault would have made lot of money whenever India wanted to integrate any home-grown weapon to that platform with exorbitant consulting fees. I’m glad someone has the foresight to see this.

Country the size of India does need a home-grown clean sheet fighter, we have it in Tejas & AMCA and these two may be late, but we’ll get there eventually. When a third world country like India embark on something complex, linear progression is not possible, and I commend India for not throwing away this development and go for foreign fighter as a quick fix. Perfect example is that Danish component in MK1A, I’m glad these things happen, and we keep on indigenising these.

Have a good one.

 

[onlinpunit]

I have different take on M2000 production line transfer to India and we made the right choice to not go with that. Operationally, maybe it was good decision to shore up some numbers in short term, however not a strategic long-term decision.

French basically wanted to milk India for outdated fighter and use that money for Rafale R&D. I’ll give you an example, Dassault would have made lot of money whenever India wanted to integrate any home-grown weapon to that platform with exorbitant consulting fees. I’m glad someone has the foresight to see this.

Country the size of India does need a home-grown clean sheet fighter, we have it in Tejas & AMCA and these two may be late, but we’ll get there eventually. When a third world country like India embark on something complex, linear progression is not possible, and I commend India for not throwing away this development and go for foreign fighter as a quick fix. Perfect example is that Danish component in MK1A, I’m glad these things happen, and we keep on indigenising these.

Have a good one.

We should have bought the M2000 assembly line with all the rights in 1999.

 

[Guru Dutt]

I have different take on M2000 production line transfer to India and we made the right choice to not go with that. Operationally, maybe it was good decision to shore up some numbers in short term, however not a strategic long-term decision.

French basically wanted to milk India for outdated fighter and use that money for Rafale R&D. I’ll give you an example, Dassault would have made lot of money whenever India wanted to integrate any home-grown weapon to that platform with exorbitant consulting fees. I’m glad someone has the foresight to see this.

Country the size of India does need a home-grown clean sheet fighter, we have it in Tejas & AMCA and these two may be late, but we’ll get there eventually. When a third world country like India embark on something complex, linear progression is not possible, and I commend India for not throwing away this development and go for foreign fighter as a quick fix. Perfect example is that Danish component in MK1A, I’m glad these things happen, and we keep on indigenising these.

Have a good one.

ok Given but did we did judtice with LCA or IJT programme the way it deserved ?

no sir we did not ... we here means the people that uses them and the people who runs the system thats beurocracy of MOD & finance ministry and the procurment lobby of armed forces they just mocked the cpabilities or for that matter incompetnce of ARDE/HAL or DRDO for that matter and abused the TAX payers hard earned money .... tell me who is laughing and who is crying now

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

it dose not matter who was asking for what point was there were heavy kickbacks involved in the Mirage2000 upgrade and that was done by UPA goverment and by using IAF & HAL and arm twisting dassault cause they were ready to transfer the full mirage2000 line to india and talks were already going and had NDA came back to power we could have been making Mirage2000 in india for lesser that 40 million with engine in india ..... but alas we have corruption

Rafales do not have GaN AESA radars, and France is demanding a significant amount to integrate the Indian UTTAM AESA radar into them. In comparison, Indian-made aircraft like Tejas, or even the Indo-Russian Su-30MKI and other Russian fighter jets, are better in this regard as they can be continuously upgraded with modern Indian systems.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

We should have bought the M2000 assembly line with all the rights in 1999.

France will never provide full transfer of technology for the Rafales or any other fighter jet. Remember, the Rafale M was initially supposed to come with the Indian UTTAM AESA radar, but due to the exorbitant cost quoted by France for integration, India is purchasing them with the French radar instead. The French radar uses GaAs technology; France does not yet have GaN radar technology. They are working on developing it, but it will take at least a decade.

 

[Guru Dutt]

Rafales do not have GaN AESA radars, and France is demanding a significant amount to integrate the Indian UTTAM AESA radar into them. In comparison, Indian-made aircraft like Tejas, or even the Indo-Russian Su-30MKI and other Russian fighter jets, are better in this regard as they can be continuously upgraded with modern Indian systems.

question is why should we add Uttam ARSA radar to Rafale fighter or for that matter ASTRA let it be what it is keep it original

i am not even in favour of this half baked TOT or make in india for such small number of items cause no manufacturer will do that its just a joke played on indian tax payer by cunning beurocracy

 

[Archie]

We should have bought the M2000 assembly line with all the rights in 1999.

This would have buried the LCA MK2 program
and we would have 175 units of Mirage 2000 that will be stuck with yr 2004 Mirage 2000dash9 specs since that’s the most advance version of Mirage 2000 which is currently operated by UAE and which will be replaced by Rafale F4s in 2028

Our present 50 odd Mirage2000 v5 are slated for retirement by 2035 along with Mig29upgs and Jaguars

Had we purchased 126 Mirage2000s

Then we would not have bought 36 Rafales which are far superior

Our squadron strength would most likely be at 34 Sqds instead of 31 at present
And Tejas Program would have ended at Mk1A with 220 aircrafts in total

And we would have been looking at a medium weight fighter to replace 175 Mirage 2000s and 60 Mig29s starting 2030

 

[BP2]

it dose not matter who was asking for what point was there were heavy kickbacks involved in the Mirage2000 upgrade and that was done by UPA goverment and by using IAF & HAL and arm twisting dassault cause they were ready to transfer the full mirage2000 line to india and talks were already going and had NDA came back to power we could have been making Mirage2000 in india for lesser that 40 million with engine in india ..... but alas we have corruption

I doubt it was possible to built a Mirage 2000-5 (the sole possible) at less than 60 million.

 

[BP2]

I have different take on M2000 production line transfer to India and we made the right choice to not go with that. Operationally, maybe it was good decision to shore up some numbers in short term, however not a strategic long-term decision.

French basically wanted to milk India for outdated fighter and use that money for Rafale R&D. I’ll give you an example, Dassault would have made lot of money whenever India wanted to integrate any home-grown weapon to that platform with exorbitant consulting fees. I’m glad someone has the foresight to see this.

Country the size of India does need a home-grown clean sheet fighter, we have it in Tejas & AMCA and these two may be late, but we’ll get there eventually. When a third world country like India embark on something complex, linear progression is not possible, and I commend India for not throwing away this development and go for foreign fighter as a quick fix. Perfect example is that Danish component in MK1A, I’m glad these things happen, and we keep on indigenising these.

Have a good one.

IAF with 126 Mirage 2000-5 now, even without Rafale, would have been far stronger. So I don't agree with you about a non strategic decision.
Add that with the full line in India it would have been possible to export some more units (with french agreement).
And with the M53 engine, a first gen of AMCA more easy to have.
So a good decision not taken.

Why do you always want Dassault to milk its customers? No one force Egypt, UAE, Greece, India etc... to purchase gen after gen french fighters. If you purchase Dassault fighters it is because they are potent and offer a good quality to cost ratio. If not go to russian (already tryed) or american solution (good but delivered with a dual key system !)

 

[Guru Dutt]

I doubt it was possible to built a Mirage 2000-5 (the sole possible) at less than 60 million.

well it might have been possible as there is lots of diffrence between labour rates and cost of raw material between France and India

but paying 40 million dollars for upgrade that too without new engine or weapons package is way way too expensive and that too without AESA radar or MAWR & Jammers

 

[BP2]

Rafales do not have GaN AESA radars, and France is demanding a significant amount to integrate the Indian UTTAM AESA radar into them. In comparison, Indian-made aircraft like Tejas, or even the Indo-Russian Su-30MKI and other Russian fighter jets, are better in this regard as they can be continuously upgraded with modern Indian systems.

Next RBE2 radar, for F5, will be fully GaN. GaN antenna not integrated on RBE2 because too costly as for now. Not a technical issue.
But a greater range means a far greater computing power (space to scan is % to range ^3), this is why we are waiting for another gen radar.
But it seems that Spectra is already GaN fitted.

UTAAM is GaN ?

Do you imagine it is free to integrate something new on Russian jets? Sure not.

 

[BP2]

well it might have been possible as there is lots of diffrence between labour rates and cost of raw material between France and India

but paying 40 million dollars for upgrade that too without new engine or weapons package is way way too expensive and that too without AESA radar or MAWR & Jammers

In the 40 millions there are 50% offsets. Remove these offsets and the price fall to 25 millions.
The life span of these Mirage was increased. It is included in the price.
And are we aware of all that was improved? As it as a nuclear asset for India, maybe some more goodies were changed or added....

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Next RBE2 radar, for F5, will be fully GaN. GaN antenna not integrated on RBE2 because too costly as for now. Not a technical issue.
But a greater range means a far greater computing power (space to scan is % to range ^3), this is why we are waiting for another gen radar.
But it seems that Spectra is already GaN fitted.

UTAAM is GaN ?

Do you imagine it is free to integrate something new on Russian jets? Sure not.

Yes UTTAM MK2 is GaN AESA Radar

India's Uttam AESA Radar Is Close To Clearing A Major Milestone — Here's The Lowdown

India’s indigenously developed Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Uttam radar is nearing of completion of its flight trials

swarajyamag.com

If France hadn't demanded an unreasonable amount to integrate India's UTTAM Mk2 radar into the Rafales, the Indian Rafales could have been equipped with the GaN UTTAM AESA radar, enhancing their ability to detect stealth targets. Additionally, having Indian avionics would have made it easier to integrate Indian, Russian, and Israeli weapons systems.