TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[Oublious]

Don't waste your time with people who don't know the basics.

You know the breadth and depth I have chatted with you Turks on this matter to begin with.

Others look at wiki and dont have the basic slightest idea on the actual subject w.r.t what an aircraft weight, T/W and role/cost of afterburner is to begin with (dependent on the core).

Then they even look at the wiki wrong. Frustrating if you try to hand hold them.

when they give China as example Trump is coming to my mind lol...

 

[Merzifonlu]

By the way, Baykar Kızılelma's tests have been completed and mass production preparations have begun. Kaan will not be lonely in the air, even during the test flight!

https://www.ssb.gov.tr/Images/Uploads/files/2023%20Y%C4%B1l%C4%B1%20Faaliyet%20Raporu(1).pdf

 

[falcon34]

The engireening is extremely complex and Turkey lacks any real prior experience in producing and using a single fighter turbofan engine so far.

Really, did they produce any stealth fighters, let alone any 4 gen aircraft, but look at them, they've got a 5 gen fighter flying be critical but don't be dumbass.

 

[hyperman]

Well, well, well...

Congrats on the "promotion" but maybe you need to let go of past butt-hurts and rise to your new status?

While I am of course a massive supporter of the Turkish defence industry, I do not have that inbuilt Turkish national that would cloud my judgement and think Turkey could get to within 10-20 years of US/Chinese fighter engine tech by the 2030s.

Of course I would love to see BAF flying a few squadrons of KAANs in the 2030s, and even with an interim 4+ generation engine with circa 140kN Engine, it would still be a good fighter aircraft for BD, when flying alongside more squadrons of J-31.

It doesn't take 20 years to develop a Turbo fan. And especially not with the amount of experience Turkey has with License producing the GE F110 in Turkey itself.

Here are a few reasons as to why I think the China issue isn't comparable.

China started from Absolute scratch in building out its Turbofans. Turkey(Tusas/TEI) is not starting from Scratch. Turkey got its start in engine development by being chosen as a component manufacturer at the very beginning in the F-16 development. In this respect, the comparison for Turkey is not China, but Japan and South Korea. Which also were also F-16 partners, with the exception of GE, the only countries license producing the GE F110 engine are IHI Corporation in Japan, Samsung Techwin(now Hanwa Aerospace), and TEI in Turkey.

Now granted out of these three in terms of Engine development IHI has the most experience, followed by TEI and then Samsung/Hanwa. But regardless, all these of these started off in a better position than China(which is a credit to china considering how far they have come)

Turkey like Japan has been license producing several turbofans and turboshaft engines including the T700 and the T800 turboshafts in addition to the F110. In addition Turkey builds modules for the CFM leap and the GE9X put simply every time you take a flight on an airbus or Boeing airplane basically you are flying with engines that have modules built in Turkey.

China was given none of these privileges, China literally had to scrape the bottom of the barrel with no real tech transfers or license production of commercial engines, being under sanctions and trying to somehow figure things out by reverse engineering, espionage and trial and error.

Some people think that the only the US, UK, China and Soviet Union/Russia have been able to develop turbofans in this class, but they seem to not realize that Japan actually has a Turbofan in the same class, and it didn't take them 20 years to develop, b/c Japan like Turkey had access to tech transfer and license production experience along with being able to get access to consultants and codevelopment.

When you look at the gap between the IHI XF5 first being built out as a prototype and then compare how long it too Japan to built the first XF9 prototype you will see that it did not take 20 years. Turkey currently is at the XF5 stage of development. with the TF6000 which is undergoing testing. If you look at the similar experiences and history between IHI and TEI, its more plausible that TEI will follow the Japan timeline, not the Chinese timeline.

Right now after the TF6000, Turkey will build the TF10000 which is essentially the afterburning version of the TF60000. Loosely comparable to the way Honeywell built the F124 and then the afterburning version with the F125.

After those steps is the matter of scaling up to build the TF35000.

These steps are essentially the building blocks as described by the TEI CEO Mahmut Aksit, who used to work at GE in charge of research and development teams that worked on aircraft engines and turbines. My personal opinion I don't think he is bullshitting, he seems to have the background to know whats required for engine development. Perhaps the currently given speculative dates for delivery are optimistic, that can be reasonably argued. Me personally I haven't seen him give a date, But I certainly don't think that it will take 20 years as you suggested, given the various factors I mentioned, and this doesn't even take into account the resources that Turkey may receive from Ivchenko Progress or what is being currently negotiated with RollsRoyce. China had none of these privileges and advantages when they were building their program.

 

[Quwa]

It doesn't take 20 years to develop a Turbo fan. And especially not with the amount of experience Turkey has with License producing the GE F110 in Turkey itself.

Here are a few reasons as to why I think the China issue isn't comparable.

China started from Absolute scratch in building out its Turbofans. Turkey(Tusas/TEI) is not starting from Scratch. Turkey got its start in engine development by being chosen as a component manufacturer at the very beginning in the F-16 development. In this respect, the comparison for Turkey is not China, but Japan and South Korea. Which also were also F-16 partners, with the exception of GE, the only countries license producing the GE F110 engine are IHI Corporation in Japan, Samsung Techwin(now Hanwa Aerospace), and TEI in Turkey.

Now granted out of these three in terms of Engine development IHI has the most experience, followed by TEI and then Samsung/Hanwa. But regardless, all these of these started off in a better position than China(which is a credit to china considering how far they have come)

Turkey like Japan has been license producing several turbofans and turboshaft engines including the T700 and the T800 turboshafts in addition to the F110. In addition Turkey builds modules for the CFM leap and the GE9X put simply every time you take a flight on an airbus or Boeing airplane basically you are flying with engines that have modules built in Turkey.

China was given none of these privileges, China literally had to scrape the bottom of the barrel with no real tech transfers or license production of commercial engines, being under sanctions and trying to somehow figure things out by reverse engineering, espionage and trial and error.

Some people think that the only the US, UK, China and Soviet Union/Russia have been able to develop turbofans in this class, but they seem to not realize that Japan actually has a Turbofan in the same class, and it didn't take them 20 years to develop, b/c Japan like Turkey had access to tech transfer and license production experience along with being able to get access to consultants and codevelopment.

When you look at the gap between the IHI XF5 first being built out as a prototype and then compare how long it too Japan to built the first XF9 prototype you will see that it did not take 20 years. Turkey currently is at the XF5 stage of development. with the TF6000 which is undergoing testing. If you look at the similar experiences and history between IHI and TEI, its more plausible that TEI will follow the Japan timeline, not the Chinese timeline.

Right now after the TF6000, Turkey will build the TF10000 which is essentially the afterburning version of the TF60000. Loosely comparable to the way Honeywell built the F124 and then the afterburning version with the F125.

After those steps is the matter of scaling up to build the TF35000.

These steps are essentially the building blocks as described by the TEI CEO Mahmut Aksit, who used to work at GE in charge of research and development teams that worked on aircraft engines and turbines. My personal opinion I don't think he is bullshitting, he seems to have the background to know whats required for engine development. Perhaps the currently given speculative dates for delivery are optimistic, that can be reasonably argued. Me personally I haven't seen him give a date, But I certainly don't think that it will take 20 years as you suggested, given the various factors I mentioned, and this doesn't even take into account the resources that Turkey may receive from Ivchenko Progress or what is being currently negotiated with RollsRoyce. China had none of these privileges and advantages when they were building their program.

IMO...Turkiye is like India's aerospace R&D, but run competently, very competently @Oscar The Turkish 'babus' get sidelined very quickly, and there's a top-to-bottom obsession to developing indigenous solutions to safeguard national interests. In addition, there is also a strong level of synergy between public and private sector actors.

 

[Oscar]

It doesn't take 20 years to develop a Turbo fan. And especially not with the amount of experience Turkey has with License producing the GE F110 in Turkey itself.

Here are a few reasons as to why I think the China issue isn't comparable.

China started from Absolute scratch in building out its Turbofans. Turkey(Tusas/TEI) is not starting from Scratch. Turkey got its start in engine development by being chosen as a component manufacturer at the very beginning in the F-16 development. In this respect, the comparison for Turkey is not China, but Japan and South Korea. Which also were also F-16 partners, with the exception of GE, the only countries license producing the GE F110 engine are IHI Corporation in Japan, Samsung Techwin(now Hanwa Aerospace), and TEI in Turkey.

Now granted out of these three in terms of Engine development IHI has the most experience, followed by TEI and then Samsung/Hanwa. But regardless, all these of these started off in a better position than China(which is a credit to china considering how far they have come)

Turkey like Japan has been license producing several turbofans and turboshaft engines including the T700 and the T800 turboshafts in addition to the F110. In addition Turkey builds modules for the CFM leap and the GE9X put simply every time you take a flight on an airbus or Boeing airplane basically you are flying with engines that have modules built in Turkey.

China was given none of these privileges, China literally had to scrape the bottom of the barrel with no real tech transfers or license production of commercial engines, being under sanctions and trying to somehow figure things out by reverse engineering, espionage and trial and error.

Some people think that the only the US, UK, China and Soviet Union/Russia have been able to develop turbofans in this class, but they seem to not realize that Japan actually has a Turbofan in the same class, and it didn't take them 20 years to develop, b/c Japan like Turkey had access to tech transfer and license production experience along with being able to get access to consultants and codevelopment.

When you look at the gap between the IHI XF5 first being built out as a prototype and then compare how long it too Japan to built the first XF9 prototype you will see that it did not take 20 years. Turkey currently is at the XF5 stage of development. with the TF6000 which is undergoing testing. If you look at the similar experiences and history between IHI and TEI, its more plausible that TEI will follow the Japan timeline, not the Chinese timeline.

Right now after the TF6000, Turkey will build the TF10000 which is essentially the afterburning version of the TF60000. Loosely comparable to the way Honeywell built the F124 and then the afterburning version with the F125.

After those steps is the matter of scaling up to build the TF35000.

These steps are essentially the building blocks as described by the TEI CEO Mahmut Aksit, who used to work at GE in charge of research and development teams that worked on aircraft engines and turbines. My personal opinion I don't think he is bullshitting, he seems to have the background to know whats required for engine development. Perhaps the currently given speculative dates for delivery are optimistic, that can be reasonably argued. Me personally I haven't seen him give a date, But I certainly don't think that it will take 20 years as you suggested, given the various factors I mentioned, and this doesn't even take into account the resources that Turkey may receive from Ivchenko Progress or what is being currently negotiated with RollsRoyce. China had none of these privileges and advantages when they were building their program.

Where is the metallurgy sourcing going with all of that though?
That is probably the most protected aspect of the field.

 

[Oscar]

IMO...Turkiye is like India's aerospace R&D, but run competently, very competently @Oscar The Turkish 'babus' get sidelined very quickly, and there's a top-to-bottom obsession to developing indigenous solutions to safeguard national interests. In addition, there is also a strong level of synergy between public and private sector actors.

They've had great mentors - in the Israelis, US and EU - they also are much more process oriented and do not suffer too much of the cultural toxicity that comes in the subcontinent.

 

[Afif]

Where is the metallurgy sourcing going with all of that though?
That is probably the most protected aspect of the field.

That is right, but TEI & Tubitak's indeginous 3rd gen single crystal blades seems promising. They had a good start with that. Let's seem how it performs with TF6000 first.

 

[PakAl]

I know. On top of that, there's no news nor rumours that the 'delay' is due to technical issues. It's as simple as that, Kaan will fly a couple days before the election takes place. That was pretty obvious for anyone who knows one or two things about politics. Frankly, I would have done the same. lol

I would have sat in Kaan before the elections

 

[Falcon26]

IMO...Turkiye is like India's aerospace R&D, but run competently, very competently @Oscar The Turkish 'babus' get sidelined very quickly, and there's a top-to-bottom obsession to developing indigenous solutions to safeguard national interests. In addition, there is also a strong level of synergy between public and private sector actors.

I think you’re being very kind to the Indians here. The Indians are easily a decade behind the Turks in terms of technology and couple decades behind in terms of culture.

Ideally, Pakistan should be emulating the Turkish culture and work ethic but given the pervasive and toxic influence of the army generals in everyday Pakistani life, I think absent a genuine revolution or culture shift, this is more of a pipe dream than a realistic target.

 

[Quwa]

I think you’re being very kind to the Indians here. The Indians are easily a decade behind the Turks in terms of technology and couple decades behind in terms of culture.

Ideally, Pakistan should be emulating the Turkish culture and work ethic but given the pervasive and toxic influence of the army generals in everyday Pakistani life, I think absent a genuine revolution or culture shift, this is more of a pipe dream than a realistic target.

Just worth mentioning, but while the Turks were briefly occupied, they were never colonized.

 

[PakAl]

Turkish 5th Generation Stealth Jet "KAAN" Hits Target Drones in Its First Flight​

The Kaan is making so many manouvers on its first flight, doesn't the pilot takes it easy on the first flight?

 

[Oublious]

The Kaan is making so many manouvers on its first flight, doesn't the pilot takes it easy on the first flight?

dcs gaming with F22

 

[Merzifonlu]

The Kaan is making so many manouvers on its first flight, doesn't the pilot takes it easy on the first flight?

This video fake.

 

[UKBengali]

Some people think that the only the US, UK, China and Soviet Union/Russia have been able to develop turbofans in this class, but they seem to not realize that Japan actually has a Turbofan in the same class, and it didn't take them 20 years to develop, b/c Japan like Turkey had access to tech transfer and license production experience along with being able to get access to consultants and codevelopment.

We won't agree on the other points but which engine is this? XF9?

Please don't count an engine in development that was not put in serial production at least.

Japan has now given up independently developing its own next-gen fighter and the partnership with the UK/Italy will rely on an engine built on core Rolls Royce technology.