The Munir Doctrine

[Signalian]

Have the geinuses in GHQ thought about what they will do if India decides to go on the attack while China is busy with Taiwan?

If India would have got an opportunity to attack seeing success in its crosshairs - India would have attacked by now. Indian military knows it will get a massively bloody nose in a conventional war with Pakistan. So the geniuses in GHQ are doing the right thing which is why Indian Army is unable to attack.

 

[Signalian]

To this end, I have noticed PTI adopting a strategy involving aligning with religious parties and sidelining the three “establishment backed” parties; PML-N, PPP, and MQM, not unlike the Talibs sidelining the government in Kabul for dealing with the Americans. If the establishment didn’t learn from that war, the population and PTI in particular surely did.

The good thing about COAS Munir is not engaging in talks with TTP which gives them time to rest and re-arm.

 

[FuturePAF]

The good thing about COAS Munir is not engaging in talks with TTP which gives them time to rest and re-arm.

Yeah, talks with them is a dead end. It’s the tribes they come from or the Talib government in Kabul that is even worth trying to talk to, and even that is dependent on if the Afghans run out of options to avoid talking.

Otherwise fortify the border and give the border troops 300 hp domestically designed MRAPs to keep the miscreants in check. Once their smuggling revenue sources run out they will come asking for terms (until they get more money are try it all over again).

 

[Nilgiri]

Indeed non-like minded people did Malabar riots, or is it Direct Action Day?

There have been very many vicious riots during civil wars and partitions and so on.

Jinnah, Suhrawardy et al roles in these are severe stains..... as say Ishtiaq Ahmed has pointed out among other things.

This is what made what I describe a difficult process indeed for Pakistan's elite post-partition for sure.

In light of %-wise the bloodletting, it was far worse in Ottoman empire twilight era. But Ataturk was churned up there and made the state secular (in a way to put out the religion conduit for these things going forward for at least the overt state aspect of it starting out).

So if it was do able there, there was no real reason to not have been done in Pakistan's case....if not in the 1950s, some later decade.

Unfortunately the militarist and egoist mixed in with what was already there regd Ayub Khan years....and this would conclude with the 1971 chapter....and impact on the establishment's narrative and power dynamics since for Pakistan. i.e further withdrawal into it and self-reinforcing at any cost with India an even readier proven bogeyman so to speak.

But this was not set in stone to happen in that upstream.

 

[Nilgiri]

Instead of abstract concepts, it is better to look at real world examples. You started with good words about Turkey; but they have latent animus against Greece even though they are nominally 'secular'. In fact, President Erdogan has stated his political goal in a memorable quote: “Democracy is like a streetcar. You ride it until you arrive at your destination, then you step off.” He converted Hagia Sophia, a historic church, into a mosque. More recently, he converted another Byzantine church, the Church of St. Saviour in Chora, into a mosque.

So, long story short: If it didn't work in Turkey, it definitely wouldn't have worked in Pakistan.

If Turkiye started out with an Erdogan type (and largely promoted such types afterwards) through some twist of history, obviously it would be a far poorer, underdeveloped and socially backward country in todays term (assuming it maintained its borders to same degree to compare in first place).

It only becomes lot clearer if you have good set of Turkish friends to talk about these things with in detail.

Just the same if India started out with Modi type instead of Nehru. India would have tore itself apart and fissured internally. I certainly would not be here talking to you, as there would have been no Kamaraj in my state so my dad could get an education (given size of his family) and set my own arc to what it is now.

You are talking about downstream politics and courses meaning the original foundational politics and courses were wrong, doomed etc.... (and the same with the strengths developed so that these downstreams today could even exist in first place to fester and reinvent and assert their crap ingratefully and hypocritically and so on...with whatever weaknesses they can harness in the sociological clay that exists).

Its not like there are not wise Pakistanis too that understand what was squandered from get go, and what could have been instead:

The Objectives Resolution lives on | The Express Tribune

The infection of extremism running in our society has permeated very soul of Pakistan.

tribune.com.pk

 

[EugeneP]

If Turkiye started out with an Erdogan type

It is not a question of what if it had started with him or someone else. The 'DNA' of Turkey is anti-democratic. So, it would have ended with Erdogan. It is just a matter of when. If you have good set of Turkish friends to talk about these things in detail, they usually strongly disapprove of Erdogan and his ways. They also stay away from Turkey. Similarly, it's not like there are no wise Pakistanis too that understand ..... and what could have been. It is just that most of them stay away from Pakistan.

 

[agidest]

If India would have got an opportunity to attack seeing success in its crosshairs - India would have attacked by now. Indian military knows it will get a massively bloody nose in a conventional war with Pakistan. So the geniuses in GHQ are doing the right thing which is why Indian Army is unable to attack.

No. Stop spewing what your military tells you. India chooses not to because the India's objective is not spending energy, human and financial resources on war. The gains from that war are miniscule compared to the gains from investing in its own country.

India's objective is to spend on infrastructure, build factories and jobs and ensure it becomes a developed nation.

At this point it is abundantly clear the destinies of Pakistan and India are quite divergent. And where the country spends its money and energy spells out its priorities.

 

[Signalian]

No. Stop spewing what your military tells you. India chooses not to because the India's objective is not spending energy, human and financial resources on war. The gains from that war are miniscule compared to the gains from investing in its own country.

India's objective is to spend on infrastructure, build factories and jobs and ensure it becomes a developed nation.

At this point it is abundantly clear the destinies of Pakistan and India are quite divergent. And where the country spends its money and energy spells out its priorities.

No. Thats not it.
India has made up incidents as excuses in the past and has been testing Pakistan's responses and defenses, so yeah in a conventional war India knows it will get a bloody nose.

 

[Nilgiri]

Former RAW chief says shrifs and Bhuttos are Indian assets

When our own politicians give up the initiative to properly govern, failing to pass reforms to steady the economy for instance and not take out loans we are unable to manage, they become susceptible to even the smallest of maneuvers by adversaries to our national interests like Modi. Regret to...

defencepk.com

@FuturePAF , the thread got locked.

But the things you describe have very low possibility of happening in my opinion. These things need 10 - 20 years of proven base having happened already rather than it being a matter of turning on a dime.

The Pakistani "core establishment" actively despises forking over any semblance of responsibility to other groups of people to then prove themselves.

They are anti-competence to the umpteenth degree.

There is a reason I tagged you here earlier:

India's Agnikul Cosmos Launches Agnibaan SoRTed-01: Breakthrough in Additive Manufacturing for Semi-Cryogenic Liquid Engines

If one goes to Pakistan's case:

https://www.wipo.int/edocs/statistics-country-profile/en/pk.pdf

You tell me if India will reach 10k patents filed internationally before or after Pakistan reaching 10?

A number of things stand out comparing here past the direct numbers (the IP flows, market cap dynamics and so on get even worse for Pakistan...and what these will do with relative brain drain and so on till 2050 and so on).

I mean even with Pakistan activity being as low as it is.... India garnering 4th largest share regd Pakistanis filing outside (instead of say China which one might expect). Why is that?

Forget about undercutting India without first fixing public trust and authority within Pakistan to a basic degree. But this runs entirely counter to what the Pak establishment wants and is used to....so it wont happen, not from anything that can be seen objectively right now.

Past that (say by some miracle Pak establishment has some major change of heart and brain and focuses on that public trust for 10 years and the power deleveraging that requires), every first mover obstacle PRC/CCP has put regd capital retention w.r.t India,.... Indian corporates and overall economic heft will also similarly leverage w.r.t Pakistan when it comes to western wealth pool flows and investment.

i.e your choice to be part of Indian market cap increase from 5 trillion to 10 trillion, or for venture capital to take Indian unicorns from numbering 100 to 200 and more....or NOT. But it will be communicated each step of the way that it is to be mutually exclusive to anything to do with say Pakistan's attempt to try increase its market cap from 50 billion to 100 billion (again, after the previous and ongoing collapse) or getting even one unicorn on the board to begin with..... i.e let China put its money where its mouth is and lead there if its so genuinely interested (in actual serious production capex) past debt-infra MOU magic wand model.

I mean this is basic reason non resident Pakistani (i.e the first layer to sort out, expats etc) deposits is about 4 billion? USD to shore up Pak forex reserves at ~ 10 billion, whereas India arranges about 150 billion USD in NRI deposits to shore up 650 billion in forex in its case.....but the pop differential is 6 times. There is a heavy trust differential (past what was expressed in old PDF regarding this during the ongoing IK drama, roshan accts and all) between even the well heeled expat populations regarding home country.

NRI deposits surge, thanks to India's strong post-pandemic report card

India's robust post-pandemic economic performance has led to a surge in NRI deposits, reflecting confidence in the country's financial stability. A study by Bank of Baroda shows NRI deposits accounting for 6.2% of total deposits, with a CAGR of 7.2% over the past decade.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

"Pakistan has a stock of $3.7 billion."

Bangladesh falls behind peers in receiving non-resident deposits

Bangladesh is lacking among four South Asian countries to attract deposits and investments from Bangladeshi migrants, according to a World Bank report

www.thedailystar.net

These are what then induce more bonds around it (regarding neutral/transactional foreign investment pools)...i.e the next layers. This then feeds into the corporate layers to grow and permeate, put floorboards and self-reinforce to get to next tiers of scale in sectors of interest to global economy.

But each time I looked into SBP white papers (and these white papers strangely have come to halt qualitatively too now) discussing these topics (and layer prioritisation), the competent authors prescriptions have been entirely ignored....as again these papers and policy-craft in the end are just made into nominal pursuits to check "IMF" boxes for the folks that actually have power.

IMF because PRC apparently/clearly trusts this lot (past deeper than seas, higher than mountains blah) even less with its scarcer liquidity and USD war chest....for loans at this current credit rating.

That is also putting aside China's far more serious demographic cliff, TFR likely below 1.0 and all, for a moment (since you bring this up for India vs Pak) compared to India and the relative investment dynamics shaping up there (with respect to wealthier countries and poorer countries to these 2)....if you look at the population pyramid curves till 2050 and 2100 etc.

i.e As far as India and West is concerned....Pakistan will be made to experience its establishment dullardliness and zero-sum approach to India this long .... nothing will be made easy here. It is what it is, till the Pak establishment reorients in serious way w.r.t its population (to actually trust in meritocratic institutions/processes outside of it) and India....as increasingly India just needs to point out every step of way regd western investment pools, its bad business (for them) to invest in security threats to India.

It doesn't (far more likely), then things just continue to whither on the vine as they do now. Demographic so called windows come and go, there is nothing guaranteed how you harness them (PRC and India have and will squander %'s of it in their cases, can only see that a lot later).....dependent how you the powerful/influential are arranged and hedged at the apex. Its done in very poor way regd Pakistan to preserve power "as is" where it is already. Why would that be set to change by some self-induction?

 

[indushek]

India is very different situation and power dynamics and you are diametrically different to me in your reading of the INC role in it (as though it is the great institutional corrupter + power grab force right now).

Its not for no reason I brought up Nehru-Shastri-Kamaraj a number of times in this forum before. India needed those kind of things x100 to keep continuing.

What happened abruptly instead with the Indira Gandhi tenure was an abomination that has full costs impacted now with the contours and channels set for those merely willing or inducted to test waters and follow the same routes for power grabs and consolidations.

These have no close equivalents in Pakistan....along with what the post-Jinnah mess, objectives resolution and then Ayub Khan tenure set in precedent wise.

Pakistan is also a much smaller country, it has no large regions that are "resistant to Delhi" with commensurate economic forces backing them. So Pakistan's problem has permeated and baked in at a higher level.

While I will agree on the difference in dynamics and conditions, I still somehow see Congress and Military Inc of Pak as similar. Call it Tunnel vision I don't mind

The first entrants who got to milk the system fully, and taught the rest how to play.

Do you deny that Congress and its breakaway branches are nothing but, power hungry rascals of first order? The rot set in much earlier, and the eventual look is what we have now. Maybe there were some principled people, but all of them got stripped in their indulgence into debauchery for power.

The recent elections clearly show it, as to how they used any and every tool to get back in vain though. The report on AI usage for tilting the balance on social media, the usage of fake videos etc are crystal clear. They will sell their mothers along with nation, just to stay in power. Even BJP is now degenerating by taking in these dirty rascals, just to stay in power. Its good the people have taught them humility with the results. However pig headed and old world they may have sounded, they at least had a ideology but now its just power. Its so true that power corrupts

You know you keep saying its a small country, but Pakistan ranks 33rd area wise in this world. Its not that small, and can be considered a microcosm to understand how power operates.

 

[FuturePAF]

Former RAW chief says shrifs and Bhuttos are Indian assets

When our own politicians give up the initiative to properly govern, failing to pass reforms to steady the economy for instance and not take out loans we are unable to manage, they become susceptible to even the smallest of maneuvers by adversaries to our national interests like Modi. Regret to...

defencepk.com

@FuturePAF , the thread got locked.

But the things you describe have very low possibility of happening in my opinion. These things need 10 - 20 years of proven base having happened already rather than it being a matter of turning on a dime.

The Pakistani "core establishment" actively despises forking over any semblance of responsibility to other groups of people to then prove themselves.

They are anti-competence to the umpteenth degree.

There is a reason I tagged you here earlier:

India's Agnikul Cosmos Launches Agnibaan SoRTed-01: Breakthrough in Additive Manufacturing for Semi-Cryogenic Liquid Engines

View attachment 48616

If one goes to Pakistan's case:

https://www.wipo.int/edocs/statistics-country-profile/en/pk.pdf

View attachment 48617

You tell me if India will reach 10k patents filed internationally before or after Pakistan reaching 10?

A number of things stand out comparing here past the direct numbers (the IP flows, market cap dynamics and so on get even worse for Pakistan...and what these will do with relative brain drain and so on till 2050 and so on).

I mean even with Pakistan activity being as low as it is.... India garnering 4th largest share regd Pakistanis filing outside (instead of say China which one might expect). Why is that?

Forget about undercutting India without first fixing public trust and authority within Pakistan to a basic degree. But this runs entirely counter to what the Pak establishment wants and is used to....so it wont happen, not from anything that can be seen objectively right now.

Past that (say by some miracle Pak establishment has some major change of heart and brain and focuses on that public trust for 10 years and the power deleveraging that requires), every first mover obstacle PRC/CCP has put regd capital retention w.r.t India,.... Indian corporates and overall economic heft will also similarly leverage w.r.t Pakistan when it comes to western wealth pool flows and investment.

i.e your choice to be part of Indian market cap increase from 5 trillion to 10 trillion, or for venture capital to take Indian unicorns from numbering 100 to 200 and more....or NOT. But it will be communicated each step of the way that it is to be mutually exclusive to anything to do with say Pakistan's attempt to try increase its market cap from 50 billion to 100 billion (again, after the previous and ongoing collapse) or getting even one unicorn on the board to begin with..... i.e let China put its money where its mouth is and lead there if its so genuinely interested (in actual serious production capex) past debt-infra MOU magic wand model.

I mean this is basic reason non resident Pakistani (i.e the first layer to sort out, expats etc) deposits is about 4 billion? USD to shore up Pak forex reserves at ~ 10 billion, whereas India arranges about 150 billion USD in NRI deposits to shore up 650 billion in forex in its case.....but the pop differential is 6 times. There is a heavy trust differential (past what was expressed in old PDF regarding this during the ongoing IK drama, roshan accts and all) between even the well heeled expat populations regarding home country.

NRI deposits surge, thanks to India's strong post-pandemic report card

India's robust post-pandemic economic performance has led to a surge in NRI deposits, reflecting confidence in the country's financial stability. A study by Bank of Baroda shows NRI deposits accounting for 6.2% of total deposits, with a CAGR of 7.2% over the past decade.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

"Pakistan has a stock of $3.7 billion."

Bangladesh falls behind peers in receiving non-resident deposits

Bangladesh is lacking among four South Asian countries to attract deposits and investments from Bangladeshi migrants, according to a World Bank report

www.thedailystar.net

These are what then induce more bonds around it (regarding neutral/transactional foreign investment pools)...i.e the next layers. This then feeds into the corporate layers to grow and permeate, put floorboards and self-reinforce to get to next tiers of scale in sectors of interest to global economy.

But each time I looked into SBP white papers (and these white papers strangely have come to halt qualitatively too now) discussing these topics (and layer prioritisation), the competent authors prescriptions have been entirely ignored....as again these papers and policy-craft in the end are just made into nominal pursuits to check "IMF" boxes for the folks that actually have power.

IMF because PRC apparently/clearly trusts this lot (past deeper than seas, higher than mountains blah) even less with its scarcer liquidity and USD war chest....for loans at this current credit rating.

That is also putting aside China's far more serious demographic cliff, TFR likely below 1.0 and all, for a moment (since you bring this up for India vs Pak) compared to India and the relative investment dynamics shaping up there (with respect to wealthier countries and poorer countries to these 2)....if you look at the population pyramid curves till 2050 and 2100 etc.

i.e As far as India and West is concerned....Pakistan will be made to experience its establishment dullardliness and zero-sum approach to India this long .... nothing will be made easy here. It is what it is, till the Pak establishment reorients in serious way w.r.t its population (to actually trust in meritocratic institutions/processes outside of it) and India....as increasingly India just needs to point out every step of way regd western investment pools, its bad business (for them) to invest in security threats to India.

It doesn't (far more likely), then things just continue to whither on the vine as they do now. Demographic so called windows come and go, there is nothing guaranteed how you harness them (PRC and India have and will squander %'s of it in their cases, can only see that a lot later).....dependent how you the powerful/influential are arranged and hedged at the apex. Its done in very poor way regd Pakistan to preserve power "as is" where it is already. Why would that be set to change by some self-induction?

This is why I know it’s not likely in the status quo arrangement, and will take a revolutionary set of changes to rebuild that trust, to give this shift a realistic possibility. Bringing out that revolution depends first and foremost on gaining the trust of Pakistanis (at home or abroad). Sure India will try to slow it down, Pakistan existence is an anathema to everything India stands for, and talk of “friendship” with India by the sharifs is just foolish, when core national interests stand in stark contrast. It will be a struggle, but building by Pakistan in the struggle to continue its existence has in part given Pakistan some of its identity. sure it will make it difficult to attract foreign investors, but it will be easier then it is now, with no economic indicators fundamentally viable. Sure there won’t be first mover advantage but it doesn’t mean Pakistan shouldn’t try. India don’t have first mover advantage over China, but it’s trying.

There is also the issue of china’s overcapacity. ToT via joint ventures and supply chain integration funded by local investors under the right government incentives can increase local productivity and create value added products adapted for local needs for export.

Sure India will have the overall scale advantage but Pakistan can go the route of the German Mittlestand; bespoke products tailor made working with customers, made on a not that small local market that needs to leapfrog to maximize productivity in a short period of time on a limited budget.

Considering the 10 fold smaller economy, and the backwardness of the Pakistani economy, much can be learned from see what worked in India, and learning to do it more efficiently. The higher growth rates in Pakistan, if trust is rebuild will naturally attract investors looking for higher ROI.

But it fundamentally comes back to trust, export oriented development and human capital development, where the most growth lies.

As far as India is concerned, I’m sure what ever government comes next will no longer speak as brazenly vis a vi India, but it won’t talk of empty platitudes like seeking friendship with India, more so will talk of focusing on development and improving standards of living. Assuaging investors fears, so they can focus on the ROI.

As for it taking 10-20 years, I think it could be done in 5 years if the black economy is moved into the declared economy, the way India does payments digitally and money is kept in banks not in cash.

Btw, as an NRI, what percentage of your income would you say you invest into India each year? If Pakistan had the right investment climate and laws, there are still many in the diaspora that would invest back, even taking lower ROI, just to see the country prosper, and be a place they could see their kids want to visit. It’s not all about financial ROI, but having a place where one feels they belong and can hold their heads up proudly.

 

[agidest]

Sure India will try to slow it down, Pakistan existence is an anathema to everything India stands for, and talk of “friendship” with India by the sharifs is just foolish, when core national interests stand in stark contrast. ,

India doesn't have any ideological stands that Pakistan would be an anathema to. The sole goal of India is to become a developed economy and ensure Indians are prosperous. We don't care if others are democracies or theocracies or whatever.

For all India cares Pakistan could become a secular Germany or theocratic Afghanistan, it doesn't really matter as long as Pakistan does not affect India directly i.e., terrorism or war.

 

[Nilgiri]

This is why I know it’s not likely in the status quo arrangement, and will take a revolutionary set of changes to rebuild that trust, to give this shift a realistic possibility. Bringing out that revolution depends first and foremost on gaining the trust of Pakistanis (at home or abroad). Sure India will try to slow it down, Pakistan existence is an anathema to everything India stands for, and talk of “friendship” with India by the sharifs is just foolish, when core national interests stand in stark contrast. It will be a struggle, but building by Pakistan in the struggle to continue its existence has in part given Pakistan some of its identity. sure it will make it difficult to attract foreign investors, but it will be easier then it is now, with no economic indicators fundamentally viable. Sure there won’t be first mover advantage but it doesn’t mean Pakistan shouldn’t try. India don’t have first mover advantage over China, but it’s trying.

There is also the issue of china’s overcapacity. ToT via joint ventures and supply chain integration funded by local investors under the right government incentives can increase local productivity and create value added products adapted for local needs for export.

Sure India will have the overall scale advantage but Pakistan can go the route of the German Mittlestand; bespoke products tailor made working with customers, made on a not that small local market that needs to leapfrog to maximize productivity in a short period of time on a limited budget.

Considering the 10 fold smaller economy, and the backwardness of the Pakistani economy, much can be learned from see what worked in India, and learning to do it more efficiently. The higher growth rates in Pakistan, if trust is rebuild will naturally attract investors looking for higher ROI.

But it fundamentally comes back to trust, export oriented development and human capital development, where the most growth lies.

As far as India is concerned, I’m sure what ever government comes next will no longer speak as brazenly vis a vi India, but it won’t talk of empty platitudes like seeking friendship with India, more so will talk of focusing on development and improving standards of living. Assuaging investors fears, so they can focus on the ROI.

As for it taking 10-20 years, I think it could be done in 5 years if the black economy is moved into the declared economy, the way India does payments digitally and money is kept in banks not in cash.

Btw, as an NRI, what percentage of your income would you say you invest into India each year? If Pakistan had the right investment climate and laws, there are still many in the diaspora that would invest back, even taking lower ROI, just to see the country prosper, and be a place they could see their kids want to visit. It’s not all about financial ROI, but having a place where one feels they belong and can hold their heads up proudly.

OK let us see where it all goes I guess.

I just sense a deepset connected set of complexes within Pakistan's establishment that suppress/squelch things in serious ways in its own context. The very reason the black/grey economy is status quo operation default of that establishment to begin with, for its own privy advantages.

To then tick up that investment ratio (~ 10% of GDP for decades now) is not matter of snapping fingers regd that....its about does power want to be held to account....and how deeply.

This is again why every SBP white paper dies a dead, drab and ignored end when it comes to actually implementing the reforms of 20+ years ago. The very philosophy/psyche in stasis operation in Pakistan where it matters has to change....putting aside that the new guys have to then suddenly do a better+accountable job and not simply copy or even turn into the old guys again. Its not a 5 year possibility....this stuff is long term with the neural network of state-society inside Pakistan.

So why would that change without removal of the establishment given it has to defend/protect itself (so its not held to account) as first priority? They have the means to continue as is....the feedback from the body as it stresses, weakens and withers impacts very little.

i.e Why does IK bring up the hamoodur commision consequently?...to bypass the outer layers and get to something piercing and at the root of it (respond to system of fear based power with revenge regd the power it lost at cost and why)....because every transaction and treachery here within the system has to leave its bite and claw marks to be vindicated somehow later by larger society (the state forgets just how big society is in the end compared to it)....but that only happens when the power has shifted to make room for the rest of society's clamouring forces to a far larger degree. Then and then only do the next levels of society trust in the state's system have a chance to grow.

Otherwise changes for these settings, even the superficial ones that grab the most attention: investment ratios, black economy revealing+officialisation and all have no chance to form, forget about guarantee.

 

[FuturePAF]

OK let us see where it all goes I guess.

I just sense a deepset connected set of complexes within Pakistan's establishment that suppress/squelch things in serious ways in its own context. The very reason the black/grey economy is status quo operation default of that establishment to begin with, for its own privy advantages.

To then tick up that investment ratio (~ 10% of GDP for decades now) is not matter of snapping fingers regd that....its about does power want to be held to account....and how deeply.

This is again why every SBP white paper dies a dead, drab and ignored end when it comes to actually implementing the reforms of 20+ years ago. The very philosophy/psyche in stasis operation in Pakistan where it matters has to change....putting aside that the new guys have to then suddenly do a better+accountable job and not simply copy or even turn into the old guys again. Its not a 5 year possibility....this stuff is long term with the neural network of state-society inside Pakistan.

So why would that change without removal of the establishment given it has to defend/protect itself (so its not held to account) as first priority? They have the means to continue as is....the feedback from the body as it stresses, weakens and withers impacts very little.

i.e Why does IK bring up the hamoodur commision consequently?...to bypass the outer layers and get to something piercing and at the root of it (respond to system of fear based power with revenge regd the power it lost at cost and why)....because every transaction and treachery here within the system has to leave its bite and claw marks to be vindicated somehow later by larger society (the state forgets just how big society is in the end compared to it)....but that only happens when the power has shifted to make room for the rest of society's clamouring forces to a far larger degree. Then and then only do the next levels of society trust in the state's system have a chance to grow.

Otherwise changes for these settings, even the superficial ones that grab the most attention: investment ratios, black economy revealing+officialisation and all have no chance to form, forget about guarantee.

Change is more likely to come now because the weight of people’s expectations are growing so great and foreign patrons have reached a point of not wanting to subsidize the status quo enough to sustain it.

The weight of the inefficiencies are starting to catch up with the state, the way it did for the Soviet Union.

And to paraphrase Gorbachev; “We can’t keep going on like this”.

The parallels aren’t fully the same, but in broad strokes, an elite capture economy not build on market terms can’t endure.

Btw, it’s not that all can be done in 5 years, but the economy can be jump started in those 5 years and put on a track to grow sustainably and as rapidly as any other economy if not faster. My inspiration is what Poland did after the end of communism.

'This is the golden age': eastern Europe's extraordinary 30-year revival

Not everything is perfect – as reflected in political flux – but the region is wealthier and healthier than ever before

www.theguardian.com

Poland adopted the German mittlestand model and prevented the emergence of oligarchies. IMHO, Pakistan, with small investors and ground up trust building, can do the same.

 

[Nilgiri]

Change is more likely to come now because the weight of people’s expectations are growing so great and foreign patrons have reached a point of not wanting to subsidize the status quo enough to sustain it.

The weight of the inefficiencies are starting to catch up with the state, the way it did for the Soviet Union.

And to paraphrase Gorbachev; “We can’t keep going on like this”.

The parallels aren’t fully the same, but in broad strokes, an elite capture economy not build on market terms can’t endure.

Btw, it’s not that all can be done in 5 years, but the economy can be jump started in those 5 years and put on a track to grow sustainably and as rapidly as any other economy if not faster. My inspiration is what Poland did after the end of communism.

View attachment 48993

'This is the golden age': eastern Europe's extraordinary 30-year revival

Not everything is perfect – as reflected in political flux – but the region is wealthier and healthier than ever before

www.theguardian.com

Poland adopted the German mittlestand model and prevented the emergence of oligarchies. IMHO, Pakistan, with small investors and ground up trust building, can do the same.

Nilgiri skywalker noob: b...b....but, this is entirely different!!!

Based FuturePAF Yoda: Always with you, it cannot be done......hear you nothing that I say?!?!