The origin of Han China was Vietnamese?

[Hendarto]

Why did the Silk Road exist if people can't travel far over land? How did Han Dynasty establish relations with Central Asia?

You can see here Han tombs were all over Vietnam including clustering in Thanh Hoa, Thanh-Nghe is the region almost all Vietnamese rulers and resistance leaders were born or have ancestral ties, how did these tombs appear in Vietnam if people from China couldn't travel far?

Graveyards and the Han Dynasty’s Riverine Empire in Vietnam – Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog (and More!)

Chu is believed by some to have been a Sinitic language, related to Old Chinese. Others have felt strongly that it's not. Mei Tsu-Lin and Jerry Norman, both well regarded scholars in their own right, wrote on Austroasiatic (Mon–Khmer) features in Chu writings. It's possible that it was Sinitic, and it's possible it was Austroasiatic, and in either case borrowed heavily from languages belonging to the other family. Borrowing was incredibly common, and muddies the waters when we're trying to trace origins.

Chu's grammar in terms of word order was not the same as Sinitic languages, and is more in line with Austroasiatic. Lexical items were quite different as well.

The genetic tie is o1b1 gene, it is the gene of Austroasiatic speakers and it was all over ancient China along the Middle Yangtze, the name of the Yangtze itself has an AA root

He is mistaking the natives of VIetnam for VIetnamese

You can clearly see there Vietnam was originally inhabited by Austroasiatics but as the data shows modern Vietnamese are genetically distant to them, those AA were conquered by Tai people, these Tai were the Dong Son people, what is the marker of Dong Son culture? Bronze drums, here is Zhuang playing with their drums

Now read what ancient Vietnamese think of those drums

The Unimportance of Bronze Drums in Việt History

In the second half of the twentieth century, the bronze drum became a symbol of “the antiquity of Việt nation.” However, from the time that the people we refer to as the Việt started to record info…

leminhkhai.wordpress.com

Look at the population map of Han Dynasty in 2AD and explain why Guangzhou is less populated than Hanoi if you say only sea travel is possible from China to Lingnan?

Look at the time scale of the Chu and Han dynasties
Here is the Chu period

Viscounty (before 704 BC) Kingdom (704–223 BC)

And here is the Han Dynasty

• 202 BC – 9 AD; 25–220 AD
• (9–23 AD: Xin)

By the time Qin conquered Chu and the beginning of Chu 500 years had lapses even then Chu was considered a Chinese state no more barbarian state I guess they meld into mainstream Chinese. At the end of the warring state, China was still preoccupied with the central and northern plains. They hadn't set their sight on the southern border yet.

It was not until 111 bce that the Han conquered Nanyue So 100 years after the end of Chu state. By that time no more Chu people were left. They were all assimilated. 100 years is Plenty of time to build roads or find a trail to Vietnam. Silk Road came into existence, only after the Han defeated the Xiongnu and guaranteed safe passage through the Hexi corridor to the west,

The so-called Sino loan word in Vietnamese stems from Middle Chinese and existed after the 4th century CE. From Northern and Southern Dynasties, Sui, Tang onward.
Chu most likely spoke old Chinese at the end of its existence.
Putonghua, Cantonese, Hakka, and all the other southern dialects derive from middle Chinese Hokkien or Minnan the only exceptions derive from old Chinese

 

[Hendarto]

I found this interesting tidbit from Wiki that confirms more or less what I say
1 The first Han expedition into Nanyue was around 110 BCE and they used a sea route and river route from Sichuan
2 Chu people used old Chinese language with Hmong substrate

First Era of Northern Domination - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Han imperial military forces consisted of six armies that traveled by sea, directly southward, or from Sichuan along the Xi River.[15] In 111 BC, General Lu Bode and General Yang Pu advanced towards Panyu (present-day Guangzhou).[13] This resulted in the surrender of Nanyue in which it was annexed and subsumed into the Han empire later that year.[13]

Sinicization[edit]​

During the several hundred years of Chinese rule, sinicization of the newly conquered Nanyue was brought about by a combination of Han imperial military power, regular settlement and an influx of Han Chinese refugees, officers and garrisons, merchants, scholars, bureaucrats, fugitives, and prisoners of war.[18] At the same time, Chinese officials were interested in exploiting the region's natural resources and trade potential. In addition, Han Chinese officials forcibly expropriated fertile land conquered from Vietnamese nobles to be redistributed for newly settled Han Chinese immigrants.[19][20] Han rule and government administration brought new influences to the indigenous Vietnamese and Vietnam as a Chinese province operated as a frontier outpost of the Han Empire

Linguistic influences[edit]​

Although bronze inscriptions from the ancient state of Chu show little linguistic differences from the "Elegant Speech" (yǎyán 雅言) during the Eastern Zhou period,[25] the variety of Old Chinese spoken in Chu has long been assumed to reflect lexical borrowings and syntactical interferences from non-Sinitic substrates, which the Chu may have acquired as a result of its southern migration into what Tian Jizhou believed to be a Kra–Dai or (para-) Hmong–Mien area in southern China.[26][27] Recent excavated texts, corroborated by dialect words recorded in the Fangyan, further demonstrated substrate influences, but there are competing hypotheses on their genealogical affiliation.[28][29]

 

[chuethnic]

That is correct modern-day Vietnamese has 60% Chinese DNA. But that is easily explained Vietnam was part of China for over 1000 years and through those millennia China sent millions of Han immigrants like soldiers, settlers, farmers, and trade people south. Most of them are single men. There is no doubt huge intermarrying occurring. The same with Koreans and Japanese they too carry a large portion of Chinese DNA Korean as high as 40% and Japanese as high as 30%

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Think of it like this, Vietnam is like the US, there are natives, then came Europeans but the intial wave of Europeans came specifically from the UK that's why American identity is tied closely to these British colonisers not with the natives or later Europeans like Germans which Americans actually have a lot of in their blood. In Vietnam's case, the natives were the Zhuang, then came the initial wave of predominantly Chu people, it is these Chu people that established Vietnamese identity despite the assimilation of some natives and other later Chinese

Look at the time scale of the Chu and Han dynasties
Here is the Chu period

Viscounty (before 704 BC) Kingdom (704–223 BC)

And here is the Han Dynasty

• 202 BC – 9 AD; 25–220 AD
• (9–23 AD: Xin)

By the time Qin conquered Chu and the beginning of Chu 500 years had lapses even then Chu was considered a Chinese state no more barbarian state I guess they meld into mainstream Chinese. At the end of the warring state, China was still preoccupied with the central and northern plains. They hadn't set their sight on the southern border yet.

It was not until 111 bce that the Han conquered Nanyue So 100 years after the end of Chu state. By that time no more Chu people were left. They were all assimilated. 100 years is Plenty of time to build roads or find a trail to Vietnam. Silk Road came into existence, only after the Han defeated the Xiongnu and guaranteed safe passage through the Hexi corridor to the west,

The so-called Sino loan word in Vietnamese stems from Middle Chinese and existed after the 4th century CE. From Northern and Southern Dynasties, Sui, Tang onward.
Chu most likely spoke old Chinese at the end of its existence.
Putonghua, Cantonese, Hakka, and all the other southern dialects derive from middle Chinese Hokkien or Minnan the only exceptions derive from old Chinese

Do you realise that Chu being a kingdom signifies that they are OUTSIDE of Zhou feudal system so the complete opposite of what you're saying? Only Zhou can be the king, Chu calling themselves king means they no longer accept their authority. Btw, Chu being a kingdom was only an internal designation, they were still only viscount among Huaxia but it's a good thing you brought it up because I will show why it proves Vietnamese descend from Chu people

As you saw Chu internally have now diverged from Zhou and believe themselves to be a parallel equal to Huaxia, guess who else thought that?
The most common autonym in Vietnamese texts was “South” (Nam). For Vietnamese, Dai Viet was the Southern Country (Nam Quoc) ruled by the southern emperor. It was also frequently called the “Heavenly South,” the “Great South,” or “our South.” China was the explicit northern half of this binary. In Vietnamese texts, China is referred to as the
Northern Country, ruled by the northern emperor and populated by northerners. As implied in Ly Thuong Kiet’s poem “The Southern Emperor Rules the Southern Land,” there were separate heavenly mandates for the two realms. There were two suns in the sky.


There are multiple layers of Chinese in Vietnamese
Some estimates have put the number of Sino-Vietnamese words as high as 70-80% of the entire lexicon.6 These words may be divided into two major categories based on time-depth of borrowing, plus a third category composed of recent and sporadic loans from a diversity of sources. These are Early Sino-Vietnamese (ESV), Late Sino-Vietnamese (LSV) and Recent Sino-Vietnmamese (RSV) respectively. The oldest stratum (“Early Sino-Vietnamese”) was borrowed in two waves: one triggered by the strong-arm sinicization of the Red River plain in the mid-1st century CE, and one triggered by the massive emigration of about one million northerners out of north China and into the south (stretching from the Yangzi to the Red River) in the 4th century CE The second major stratum of Sino-Vietnamese (i.e. “Late Sino-Vietnamese”) accounts for the vast majority of the lexicon and laid the foundation for the orthodox set of Sino-Vietnamese readings known as Hán-Vi#t?????? (HV). This large and important group of words was borrowed in the first century or two following the dissolution of the Tang (i.e. ca. 10th-ca. 12th centuries).

I found this interesting tidbit from Wiki that confirms more or less what I say
1 The first Han expedition into Nanyue was around 110 BCE and they used a sea route and river route from Sichuan
2 Chu people used old Chinese language with Hmong substrate

First Era of Northern Domination - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Han imperial military forces consisted of six armies that traveled by sea, directly southward, or from Sichuan along the Xi River.[15] In 111 BC, General Lu Bode and General Yang Pu advanced towards Panyu (present-day Guangzhou).[13] This resulted in the surrender of Nanyue in which it was annexed and subsumed into the Han empire later that year.[13]

Sinicization[edit]​

During the several hundred years of Chinese rule, sinicization of the newly conquered Nanyue was brought about by a combination of Han imperial military power, regular settlement and an influx of Han Chinese refugees, officers and garrisons, merchants, scholars, bureaucrats, fugitives, and prisoners of war.[18] At the same time, Chinese officials were interested in exploiting the region's natural resources and trade potential. In addition, Han Chinese officials forcibly expropriated fertile land conquered from Vietnamese nobles to be redistributed for newly settled Han Chinese immigrants.[19][20] Han rule and government administration brought new influences to the indigenous Vietnamese and Vietnam as a Chinese province operated as a frontier outpost of the Han Empire

Linguistic influences[edit]​

Although bronze inscriptions from the ancient state of Chu show little linguistic differences from the "Elegant Speech" (yǎyán 雅言) during the Eastern Zhou period,[25] the variety of Old Chinese spoken in Chu has long been assumed to reflect lexical borrowings and syntactical interferences from non-Sinitic substrates, which the Chu may have acquired as a result of its southern migration into what Tian Jizhou believed to be a Kra–Dai or (para-) Hmong–Mien area in southern China.[26][27] Recent excavated texts, corroborated by dialect words recorded in the Fangyan, further demonstrated substrate influences, but there are competing hypotheses on their genealogical affiliation.[28][29]

So why was Vietnam more populated than Guangdong during the Han dynasty? It wasn't until the 8th century that Guangdong overtook Vietnam, why not just settle in Guangzhou instead of sailing all the way to Hanoi?

And where did all those people that sinicised Vietnam go? Did they all disappear and die without leaving behind descendants?

Miao and Tai were fathered by Chu people that's why they both have o1b1 genes

 

[chuethnic]

Of course, Taiwanese were forced brainwashed to worship Japanese. Chinese were forced brainwashed to accept the Manchu rule of them too but not to the same degree as the Taiwanese worship Japanese emperor and culture. What about Chinese today, many of them do like Western culture and things and Communists dont stop them from doing so, but they are no way near you Taiwanese worship the Westerners and Japanese, you people treat Americans, Japanese like your fathers, no shame, try to lecture Chinese ? Besides, Japanese are the most barbaric and evil people in the world except for you Taiwanese, see how savage the Japanese behaved in WW II and all the wars they waged on China, how many innocent people they murdered and killed. Look the Koreans, they were also colonized by the bargaric Japanese for decades, but they unlike you Taiwanese hate the Japanese, lol. Japanese are the real 衣冠禽兽.

There are ample evidence Liu Bang was not from the Chu people, but from the Northern China plain, only you wont accepet it. Li Bai was from Tang dynasty, how do you know he didnt know Liu Bang more than you at the time, he admired Liu Bang so much as we all know. Xiang Yu is himself and doesnt prove anything about Liu Bang, his ancestors might just be the few noble people from Chu in the region, so. I dont know about Xiang Yu.

And, like the other points argued here, only you think the spoken Vietnamese is not similar to the Cantonese, you must have strange hearings, lol.

I'm not Taiwanese and I don't care about Japanese. The point is people want to be associated with people who the percieve to be higher not lower. For your Chinese it's Westerners that are high, for Taiwanese it's Japanese that are high, for Huaxia Chu were lowly uncivilised savages sowhy should the Liu clan want to be associated with them? Your Chinese are barbaric to yourself so I don't know why you keep demonising the Japanese. They didn't posion your baby formula, build human eating elevators or do human trafficking of your own Chinese in SEA . Please look at yourself before criticising others.


What are these 'ample evidence', please show me besides revisionist annotations or men that lived 900 years after Liu Bang. Li Bai could not know more than me because he never had access to Google. Go ask any of the members here to compare these and see which they think are closest to what

全国最难懂方言,全程说湖南土话,不加字幕,听懂3句评论告诉我_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

湖南方言十里不同音并不稀奇,但我们家乡的土话到底有多难懂,以前并不自知.自从2011年和闺蜜去上海和浙江玩的时候,竟然被当地不同场所的服务人员当成韩国人后,深刻明白我们即便在公共场合怎么说,也是没人能听懂的.即便给我们颁发全国最难懂方言,我也会欣然接受的.这次和奶奶的对话,完全出乎意料,能听懂的,要么是看哭了,要么一定笑了., 视频播放量 44228、弹幕量 225、点赞数 427、投硬币枚数 31、收藏人数 115、转发人数 209, 视频作者 湘野红姐, 作者简介...

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[ety]

I'm not Taiwanese and I don't care about Japanese. The point is people want to be associated with people who the percieve to be higher. For your Chinese it's Westerners, for Taiwanese it's Japanese. Your Chinese are barbaric to yourself so I don't know why you keep demonising the Japanese. They didn't posion your baby formula or build human eating elevators. Please look at yourself before criticising others.


What are these 'ample evidence', please show me besides revisionist annotations or men that lived 900 years after Liu Bang. Li Bai could not know more than me because he never had access to Google. Go ask any of the members here to compare these and see which they think are closest to what

全国最难懂方言,全程说湖南土话,不加字幕,听懂3句评论告诉我_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

湖南方言十里不同音并不稀奇,但我们家乡的土话到底有多难懂,以前并不自知.自从2011年和闺蜜去上海和浙江玩的时候,竟然被当地不同场所的服务人员当成韩国人后,深刻明白我们即便在公共场合怎么说,也是没人能听懂的.即便给我们颁发全国最难懂方言,我也会欣然接受的.这次和奶奶的对话,完全出乎意料,能听懂的,要么是看哭了,要么一定笑了., 视频播放量 44228、弹幕量 225、点赞数 427、投硬币枚数 31、收藏人数 115、转发人数 209, 视频作者 湘野红姐, 作者简介...

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So, you are a foreigner American, thinking you know more about Chinese history than any Chinese and try to rewrite Chinese history for the Chinese, lol, Chinese don't need your imagined lectures on Chinese history and Chinese people. The Japanese are barbarians to the bone, and you Americans are not barbaric to other minorities in your country such as Blacks and other people in the world, you Americans bomb and kill them at will.

 

[chuethnic]

So, you are a foreigner American, thinking you know more about Chinese history than any Chinese and try to rewrite Chinese history for the Chinese, lol, Chinese don't need your imagined lectures on Chinese history and Chinese people. The Japanese are barbarians to the bone, and you Americans are not barbaric to other minorities in your country such as Blacks and other people in the world, you Americans bomb and kill them at will.

I am Vietnamese and must be the descendant of Chu people because their blood and spirit has guided me to the truth of both VIetnamese and Chinese history. Your Chinese have stolen the history and land of Chu which by rights means you have stolen the history and land of VIetnamese and claimed it for yourself which showed that it is you who is barbaric. Please leave SOuth China and go back the Yellow plains where your ancestors lived so Vietnamese can return to their ancestral homeland

 

[ety]

I am Vietnamese and must be the descendant of Chu people because their blood and spirit has guided me to the truth of both VIetnamese and Chinese history. Your Chinese have stolen the history and land of Chu which by rights means you have stolen the history and land of VIetnamese and claimed it for yourself which showed that it is you who is barbaric.

Oh yeah, you people are known to be barbaric and treacherous, Chinese don't want to be closely associated with you people anymore, don't drag in Chu people and Chinese history for the sake of your own. You people now worship the Americans and whites way more than the Chinese in any way, decades ago, they carpet bombed you people with sweet agent Orange like rats, isn't it ironic. So, a Vietnamese trying to tell Chinese what the Chinese history should be, lol.

 

[chuethnic]

Vietnamese don't want to be associated with you Chinese either? Why would anyone want to be associated with you? Chu belongs to the bloodline of VIetnamese people not you
Completely delusional, Chinese are the biggest white worshippers by far, look at Taiwan, HK, Singapore, all at completely ridiculous levels of white bootlicking, China is only slightly less because of CCP otherwise you would just be as bad, true Vietnamese HATE America

 

[ety]

Vietnamese don't want to be associated with you Chinese either? Why would anyone want to be associated with you? Chu belongs to the bloodline of VIetnamese people not you
Completely delusional, Chinese are the biggest white worshippers by far, look at Taiwan, HK, Singapore, all at completely ridiculous levels of white bootlicking, China is only slightly less because of CCP otherwise you would just be as bad, true Vietnamese HATE America

Lol, a recent survey by Singapore indicates that your Vietnam and Philippines are the two most loyal to the American empire and are willing to fight for them overwhelmingly, how ironic, two countries that have millions slaughtered by the Americans in recent times love the US most in Asia and maybe the world. Then, don't drag in Chu people in your history, they are Chinese, you think by dragging Chu to Vietnam you can try to divide the Chinese people and nation ? we don't like each other, fine.

 

[chuethnic]

I don't care what your survey says, when Biden came to visit Vietnam he was not given a 21 gun salute, when Xi visited Vietnam 3 months later he was granted a 21 gun salute. Let me repeat to you TRUE Vietnamese hate America, Vietnamese only support the US so you two can get into a war and Vietnam can invade you from the South while you're busy fighting each other and can reclaim their ancestral homeland. But of course you are too chicken to invade Taiwan for that to happen

There are no Chu descendants left in China so I'm not dragging anyone anywhere? I just want you to go home and leave South China to the original peole there, don't you think 2000 years of illegal squatting is enough already?

 

[ety]

I don't care what your survey says, when Biden came to visit Vietnam he was not given a 21 gun salute, when Xi visited Vietnam 3 months later he was granted a 21 gun salute. Let me repeat to you TRUE Vietnamese hate America, Vietnamese only support the US so you two can get into a war and Vietnam can invade you from the South while you're busy fighting each other and can reclaim their ancestral homeland. But of course you are too chicken to invade Taiwan for that to happen

There are no Chu descendants left in China so I'm not dragging anyone anywhere? I just want you to go home and leave South China to the original peole there, don't you think 2000 years of illegal squatting is enough already?

Keep your delusional wet dream to yourselves, little Vietnam. Yeah, you people shamelessly also trace your ancestors to the founding emperor of Chinese nation 炎帝, why don't you people claim the whole China and maybe whole East Asia belong to you Vietnamese ? We are waiting for your attack from the south, we are scared, and this time we will chase you people into the South China sea to feed sharks.

 

[chuethnic]

Sorry to burst your bubble but Vietnamese don't want any relations with EAs including your Han Chinese Northern or Southern, only the minorities like Miao and Zhuang are accepted. Yes, you will chase Vietnamese just like last time

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[ety]

Sorry to burst your bubble but Vietnamese don't want any relations with EAs including your Han Chinese Northern or Southern, only the minorities like Miao and Zhuang are accepted. Yes, you will chase Vietnamese just like last time

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You think China has seek you Vietnamese permission if they are accepted in East Asia or whole of Asia, lol, don't flatter yourselves too much. Miao and Zhuang minorities are Chinese too, nothing to do with you Vietnam.

 

[chuethnic]

I didn't say anything about seeking permission about anything??? But since we're on the topic of EA, ety, how does it make you feel that genetically Han Chinese are closer to Vietnamese than EAs? Does it hurt you? Does it enrage you?

Although East Asian individuals cluster very tightly in the context of analysis of worldwide populations, PCA of ten East Asian populations showed they have substantial substructure (Fig. 1b). For example, Han Chinese (CHB and CHS) and southern populations (CDX and KHV) were separated from other populations by PC1.

Vietnamese were the father of Miao and Zhuang so whether you or they like it or not, they belong under the stewardship of Vietnamese

 

[ety]

I didn't say anything about seeking permission about anything??? But since we're on the topic of EA, ety, how does it make you feel that genetically Han Chinese are closer to Vietnamese than EAs? Does it hurt you? Does it enrage you?

Although East Asian individuals cluster very tightly in the context of analysis of worldwide populations, PCA of ten East Asian populations showed they have substantial substructure (Fig. 1b). For example, Han Chinese (CHB and CHS) and southern populations (CDX and KHV) were separated from other populations by PC1.

Vietnamese were the father of Miao and Zhuang so whether you or they like it or not, they belong under the stewardship of Vietnamese

That's your Vietnamese delusional claim as in many other things. You people are father of nobody esp in China, but yourselves.