Turkey Greece Relations and Maritime Disputes

[Sinan]

Man,what are you talking about,the majority of the world has signed UNCLOS and conforms to International Law. Even the US abide by it,though for internal political rivalries they've decided to formally not be a signatory,but they abide it and promote it. There are situations far worse than the Aegean.

View attachment 178339


The problem comes from Turkey's threats every time we try to drill in our waters. That's why some people here both politicians and other,claim the 12 nm expansion would solve any Turkish denial of our sovereignity. However,Turkey has put this casus belli and this turns things even worse.


You have to understand(not you personally,Turkey in general)that expanding to 12 miles is the right of every country that has signed UNCLOS,by International law it is Greece's legal right. Now,would that cause problems with Turkey since you guys have been nagging about it? Yes. But by International Law,it is our right. What I believe could be the solution,is an agreement that with a 12 mile expansion,Turkey's commercial shipping wouldn't be disrupted and it would be ridiculous for Greece to disrupt any commercial shipping. Even for fishing they could find an agreement.


Yes,and I heard that it was actually the Turks back then who insisted the minority be called Muslim and not Turkish. You have to understand again,that the Muslim minority in Thrace isn't solely of Turkish origin. A large part is Pomak and another is Muslim who doesn't identify as Turkish. So you can't claim they are all Turkish. In fact,the Pomaks often complain and accuse Turkish policies trying to put them in the same basket.


It is ridiculous to claim that you have an entire Aegean Army and the biggest landing fleet in the Mediterranean,because you feel "threatened" by small garissons on islands. The Turkish government knows it very well,these forces cannot launch invasions. They know,these are only small defensive units. On the contrary,on the Turkish side there's an entire Army and new units are being established the last couple of years,so Turkey is adding more forces there. If Turks feel "insecure" because Greece has a few M1117 Guardian,M113s and some M48s on some islands along with SHORADs....well if you still feel threatened and insecure by that,dismantle the Aegean Army,truthfully move these units elsewhere and we could scale down the already small garissons on the islands close to you. But that's all just a childish excuse for the Turkish government to keep tensions high and dispute the Greek ownership of the islands.


Lol,but what's maximalist? Your side says we should "share the wealth 50-50" and prints maps of Mavi Vatan with half the Aegean as Turkish. What's maximalist? The fact that you've been trying to usurp our rights as given by international law,by saying we're "violating Turkey's rights"? Come on.


And Turkish leaders don't love to ride the nationalist hype? Even moreso than Greeks? Do you want me to repost all the screenshots of Erdogan,Kilicdaroglu and Bahçeli threatening with invasion,with destruction,with annexation of the dodecanese,with wars,with harsh lessons,with interventions? And not even during election time.


I don't know what will happen then,but apparently we're also getting help from American companies.

Still the same rhetoric. I have not heard anything from any Greek.
Never show good faith, expect Turkey to come to their terms. I'm not gonna drag this further as i did in the past, it's always waste of time for both.

But, i'm gonna say this for once because i'm sick of Greeks thinking that international laws are on their side while it's the complete opposite.

1-) Greece being signatory to UNCLOS doesn't automatically expand it's territorial waters to 12 miles.

• Yes, UNCLOS allows coastal states to extend territorial waters up to 12 nautical miles.
• But Turkey is not a signatory to UNCLOS.
• International law is based on consent of states.
• A treaty does not automatically bind non-signatory states.

Treaties bind only the parties that signed and ratified them (Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties)
So Greece cannot say:
“UNCLOS gives us the right and Turkey must accept it.”

Turkey never accepted that regime in the Aegean context.

Aegean is not a normal coastline.

2-)The Aegean is:

• Semi-enclosed sea
• Extremely narrow
• Full of Greek islands very close to Turkish mainland
• In some places, less than 10 miles between coasts

If Greece expands to 12 nm:

• Greek territorial waters would cover ~70%+ of the Aegean
• Turkey would be confined to small pockets
• International waters would shrink drastically

This creates a disproportionate result.


International law also requires: "Equity and proportionality in semi-enclosed or special geographic areas."

The ICJ has repeatedly ruled that geography matters in maritime delimitation.

 

[GoatsMilk]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

View attachment 178223

They backed Armenia against Azerbaijan and lost.
They backed Assad against the Syrian people and lost.
They tried to play both sides in Libya and came away with Nothing.
They tried to ally with egypt against Turkiye, only to find out that today Turkish drone bases are operating out of Egypt hitting UAE terrorists in Sudan.
They tried to exterminate the Muslim population of Cyprus and Illegally annex the island, starting a war and they lost there too.

Now they have thrown everything in with the zionists at a time when the entire world sees them as murdering demons.

Its just an instrument used by the germanic ruling classes of europe to hinder Turkiye, it has no other purpose for its existence.

 

[Foinikas]

International Law is whatever currently exists. Turkey is not bound by things its never signed. From the perspective of International Law, Turkey is following international law. There is basic international law, then there are supplemental treaties. Turkey is not bound by things its never signed.

How is Turkey following the International Law of the Seas,when it doesn't recognize it when it comes to its dealings with Greece?

 

[Foinikas]

A treaty does not automatically bind non-signatory states.

Then you can't talk about militarization of the Dodecanese,when you're not a signatory of the Treaty between Greece and Italy.

2-)The Aegean is:

• Semi-enclosed sea
• Extremely narrow
• Full of Greek islands very close to Turkish mainland
• In some places, less than 10 miles between coasts

If Greece expands to 12 nm:

• Greek territorial waters would cover ~70%+ of the Aegean
• Turkey would be confined to small pockets
• International waters would shrink drastically

This creates a disproportionate result.

The reply to this is here,I've posted it before,but apparently no Turk sits down to read it:

 

[Foinikas]

They backed Armenia against Azerbaijan and lost.

Only a bit of lip service,nothing else.

They backed Assad against the Syrian people and lost.

No Greek government since the war started in 2012 backed Assad.

They tried to play both sides in Libya and came away with Nothing.

Greece was clearly with the House of Representatives government of Tobruk and again,mostly just diplomatic backing.

They tried to ally with egypt against Turkiye, only to find out that today Turkish drone bases are operating out of Egypt hitting UAE terrorists in Sudan.

Greece and Egypt still have great relations,it was Erdogan who went back asking for friendship to Sisi.

They tried to exterminate the Muslim population of Cyprus and Illegally annex the island, starting a war and they lost there too.

Nobody tried to "exterminate" the Muslim population of Cyprus,as for Enosis the island was divided between pro-Makarios which wanted an independent Cyprus and pro-coup which wanted union with Greece. If you think of it in terms of pre-independence Cyprus,Turkey was only 18% of the population and majority of Greeks were in favor of Enosis. However,an independent Cyprus with both Greeks and Turks in government came up.

Now they have thrown everything in with the zionists at a time when the entire world sees them as murdering demons.

Your simplistic narrative is false again. We've not "thrown everything in with the zionists",
we're looking to buy weapons and technology to defend against an aggressive neighbor. For this reason we go to the French too,to the Americans and others.

Its just an instrument used by the germanic ruling classes of europe to hinder Turkiye, it has no other purpose for its existence.

The same Germanic ruling classes of Europe that insist Turkey should have more participation in European defence and should be strengthened as NATO's southeast flank against Russia?

In short,get your facts right GoatsMilk.

 

[hyperman]

How is Turkey following the International Law of the Seas,when it doesn't recognize it when it comes to its dealings with Greece?

Did International Law start in 1994?

This is how "International Law" works, you sign something, then you are bound by it, if you don't sign it, you are not bound by it.

 

[Eşbah]

Turkey and Greece sign following deals during Mitsotakis / Erdogan meeting in Ankara:

Memorandum of Understanding on Cooperation Between the Presidency of the Republic of Türkiye Investment Office and the Greece Investment and Foreign Trade Agency

Memorandum on Encouraging the Initiation of Ro-Ro Services Between İzmir Port and Thessaloniki Port

Memorandum on Strengthening Cooperation Within the Framework of the Black Sea Economic Cooperation Organization

Memorandum of on Strengthening Bilateral Cooperation on Earthquake Preparedness

Memorandum of on Cooperation in the Field of Culture

Joint Statement on Cooperation in the Field of Science and Technology Between the Ministry of Industry and Technology of the Republic of Türkiye and the Ministry of Development of the Hellenic Republic

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

There won't be peace as long as the Greeks fail to grasp three key points:

1. Northern Cyprus will continue to exist as an independent nation.

2. The borders in the Aegean Sea need to be redrawn. There's no escaping this reality. It might be a tough pill for the Greeks to swallow, but they must accept this truth. The best strategy would be for them to take the lead in negotiations, offering a few minor, face-saving islands to Ankara in exchange for lasting peace.

3. Time is not on their side. They may not realize it now, but there are both internal and external pressures working against them. Some are clear, like Turkey's advancements in military technology, while others are less obvious, such as the fact that by 2026, only 10% of Greece's population will be of 'fighting age.'

Unfortunately, they're too stubborn to face reality.

 

[Foinikas]

Did International Law start in 1994?

This is how "International Law" works, you sign something, then you are bound by it, if you don't sign it, you are not bound by it.

So basically,the problem is Turkey. You don't like having to live with just the territory you've had in the last 100 years and you want to expand. Plain and simple.

2. The borders in the Aegean Sea need to be redrawn. There's no escaping this reality. It might be a tough pill for the Greeks to swallow, but they must accept this truth. The best strategy would be for them to take the lead in negotiations, offering a few minor, face-saving islands to Ankara in exchange for lasting peace.

There you go,Esbah proves my point. It all boils down to Turkey getting back to expansionist plans.

Turkey comes and says

-You can't drill in your region
-But it's ours,it's Greek territory
-I despute it and if you try to take advantage of your territory,we'll go to war
-What do you want?
-Give us half the Aegean in exchange for peace and forget any EEZ in the East Mediterranean and south of Libya


Well,no. That's extortion. That's bullying. If Turkey truly wanted to be a friendly country,a friendly neighbor that actually wanted peace and to REALLY settle things with Greece once and for all,they could have said "you know what,let's work towards finding a solution with the Kasterolizo EEZ and we don't care about anything else,Turkey is a bigger country,bigger economy,we can have each other's back". But no,that's not how it is with Turkey. Because they want more and more. Because the dream is not to have a peaceful neighbor,but a subjugated neighbor and to grab more resources.

 

[Sinan]

Then you can't talk about militarization of the Dodecanese,when you're not a signatory of the Treaty between Greece and Italy.


The reply to this is here,I've posted it before,but apparently no Turk sits down to read it:



View attachment 178369


View attachment 178373

Then you can't talk about militarization of the Dodecanese,when you're not a signatory of the Treaty between Greece and Italy.


The reply to this is here,I've posted it before,but apparently no Turk sits down to read it:



View attachment 178369


View attachment 178373

• Innocent passage is not the same as high seas freedom.
• It is conditional.
• It is under the sovereignty of the coastal state.
• The coastal state may temporarily suspend innocent passage for security reasons.
• International waters shrink dramatically.
• Turkey’s maneuver space narrows.
• Naval mobility becomes dependent on Greek tolerance.

I can go on and on. I can expand this, go into sub-categories. I don't want it. This is waste of time.

 

[hyperman]

So basically,the problem is Turkey. You don't like having to live with just the territory you've had in the last 100 years and you want to expand. Plain and simple.

We are talking about EEZ not territory. Turkey is only bound to things it signed.

 

[Eşbah]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[hodor]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

The poor girl who lost her mind

 

[hyperman]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

So she is claiming 12 nautical miles, is she a member of the govt? lol, they really are desperate for some sort of conflict.

Foolish people, if the Status quo is broken and an actual hot war breaks out, its not going to favor Greece in all likelyhood. Keeping things as they are would be in their interests with no unilateral actions and no antagonism via conspiring with the Israel against Turkey. B/c none of those people egging them on against Turkey will come and die for them.

 

[Foinikas]

• Innocent passage is not the same as high seas freedom.
• It is conditional.
• It is under the sovereignty of the coastal state.
• The coastal state may temporarily suspend innocent passage for security reasons.
• International waters shrink dramatically.
• Turkey’s maneuver space narrows.
• Naval mobility becomes dependent on Greek tolerance.

I can go on and on. I can expand this, go into sub-categories. I don't want it. This is waste of time.

The same thing happens with Turkish control of the Straits. Turkey is forced to let ships go by the Straits. What,you think Greece will forbid Turkey from passing by to a destination? That's why two countries sign agreements.

The poor girl who lost her mind

Why? She isn't saying something absurd. Turkish rhetoric towards Greece and Cyprus(Israel is a different category),has been warlike for years. It was only toned down in 2023 and until late 2025. Turkey has been sending illegals to EU through Greece for years. Even the recent boat crash a few days ago,that boat reportedly left from Cesme. Why isn't Turkey doing something to crackdown on these traffickers?

So she is claiming 12 nautical miles, is she a member of the govt? lol, they really are desperate for some sort of conflict.

Foolish people, if the Status quo is broken and an actual hot war breaks out, its not going to favor Greece in all likelyhood. Keeping things as they are would be in their interests with no unilateral actions and no antagonism via conspiring with the Israel against Turkey. B/c none of those people egging them on against Turkey will come and die for them.

Two points:

1. You don't understand that many people see Greece expanding to 12 nm as the solution to finally ending Turkish claims of all the supposed gray zones and denying Greek EEZ and SAR areas. It would end the desputes and allow us to move forward. If it wasn't for the casus belli of course.
2. You keep saying Greece should keep the status quo and no unilateral actions or antagonism. So effectively,you want Greece unable to do anything in its own territory and stand by and also,on top of that,to just stand by and watch Turkey grow stronger and geopolitically take over every country in the region,while at the same time pushing its own agenda to undermine Greece's sovereignity of the Aegean.

Whether they come to fight for us or not,that's none of your concern. That's a only a guess. When someone threatens you and you're being constantly pushed to give up your rights and what is yours by law and in this case by international law,you search for allies. Now whether they will come or they will abandon us,that's our problem. But don't go around saying "haha they are puppets,they are pushed to a confontration",because the whole problem starts from Turkey's stance towards Greece and Cyprus. The demands of Turkey and the ridiculous,surreal ways you find to project more and more claims.

Who knows,perhaps Turkey will go back to such statements,as when the Ottomans literally demanded Venetia to give them all of Cyprus,just like that.

 

[hyperman]

You don't understand that many people see Greece expanding to 12 nm as the solution to finally ending Turkish claims of all the supposed gray zones and denying Greek EEZ and SAR areas. It would end the desputes and allow us to move forward. If it wasn't for the casus belli of course.

You guys braindead or something over there? How would it "end" things? It would START things. What part of Turkey will not accept Fiat accompli do you not understand? You will declare it, then Turkey will contest it, at which point you will be forced to contest Turkey's contest, and thats where the conflict starts.

If you are so confident you can defeat Turkey in a conflict right off the coastline of Turkey, I guess it can't be helped. Maybe you think all of Europe will send an Army to attack anatolia or Israel will send soldiers or something, but in all likelyhood you end up in a situation like Cyprus where you lose half the territory. Its really a foolish thing to do. There is no need for this, keep things frozen and avoid unilateral action, when everything is settled diplomatically, then you can use your part and Turkey can use its part, until then no one uses it, and leaves it alone.