Turkish Air Force | News & Discussions

[BonPlan]

Dogfight and BVR combat

Eurofighter is better than F-16 in dogfight
also METEOR Missile+advanced AESA Radar+EW suite combined

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Furthermore, dependence on a single country poses a significant risk.

If the US doesn't provide F-16Vs / F-35s and imposes an embargo, we can supplement our fleet with Eurofighters from the UK

Greece
American F-16 - F-35
French RAFALE

Egypt
American F-16
French RAFALE
Russian MIG-29M2

S.Arabia
American F-15
European Typhoon

Qatar
American F-15
French RAFALE
European Typhoon

Turkiye
only American F-16s ... maybe also F-35A

also , others on the way
European Typhoon
Turkish KAAN

You forgot M2000 for Greece.

 

[BonPlan]

What does the Typhoon bring that Turkey doesn't already have? I can understand the imminent need for the F35, but the Typhoon? Can't see it offering anything above and beyond the Viper fleet.

Not to be too dependant of uncle Sam....
And the access to meteor, yet not integrated on F35.

 

[BonPlan]

The F-35 has no importance for Turkey. We are buying the F-35 because we want to reduce the pressure on the Kaan. Everyone is talking about the F-35, saying, 'If the Turks trusted the Kaan, they wouldn't buy the F-35.' That is what matters to us. Since the engine issue is also resolved, we can easily produce the Kaan, which will be a stealth version of the F-15

So why Erdogan was struggle hard since years to have it ?

 

[MMM-E]

You make my day.
immense advantage..... LOL

Wake me up when your jet fighter engine will be ready, circa 2045....

We dont need KAAN to kick RAFALE and F-16V


The modern air warfare is no longer "Fighter Jet against Fighter Jet," but "systems against systems."

When Turkiye combines its E-7T (Eye), KORAL/HAVA SOJ (Shield/Blinding), SIPER-2 (Long-Range Fist), and KIZILELMA (Ghost Hunter) elements with Link-16 and JREAP-C as a single brain, Greece's RAFALE no matter how technologically advanced, become isolated and prey

Greece-France only can dream about these technologies

 

[MMM-E]

KIZILELMA's entry into the game and the Low RCS (Ghost) Advantage


The RAFALE's delta wings-canards, and most importantly, the external munitions (METEOR, SCALP, etc.) and fuel tanks carried under its wings make it appear quite large on Radar ( 1-2 m² RCS).

In contrast, the KIZILELMA, thanks to its internal weapon bays and special fuselage geometry, has a truly "low observable" profile. Its radar signature is many times smaller than that of the RAFALE ( 0.3 m² RCS vs 1-2 m² RCS )


BVR (Beyond Visual Range) Advantage
In an air combat, the first to spot and fire wins. While the RAFALE's radar is under intense Turkish jamming (KORAL-200 and ASOJ-23A) and due to the KIZILELMA's low radar cross-section, RAFALE can only detect KIZILELMA at a very close distance of 40-50 km.

On the other hand, the KIZILELMA, using the Link-16 system from the E-7T behind it, obtains the RAFALE's precise position and, with its domestically produced AESA radar (MURAD), locks onto the RAFALE from a distance of 150 km


No need KAAN
No need F-16 OZGUR-2
No need Eurofighter

even KIZILELMA can beat the RAFALE and F-16V in BVR combat

 

[BonPlan]

KIZILELMA's entry into the game and the Low RCS (Ghost) Advantage


The RAFALE's delta wings-canards, and most importantly, the external munitions (METEOR, SCALP, etc.) and fuel tanks carried under its wings make it appear quite large on Radar ( 1-2 m² RCS).

In contrast, the KIZILELMA, thanks to its internal weapon bays and special fuselage geometry, has a truly "low observable" profile. Its radar signature is many times smaller than that of the RAFALE ( 0.3 m² RCS vs 1-2 m² RCS )
View attachment 206517

BVR (Beyond Visual Range) Advantage
In an air combat, the first to spot and fire wins. While the RAFALE's radar is under intense Turkish jamming (KORAL-200 and ASOJ-23A) and due to the KIZILELMA's low radar cross-section, RAFALE can only detect KIZILELMA at a very close distance of 40-50 km.

On the other hand, the KIZILELMA, using the Link-16 system from the E-7T behind it, obtains the RAFALE's precise position and, with its domestically produced AESA radar (MURAD), locks onto the RAFALE from a distance of 150 km


No need KAAN
No need F-16 OZGUR-2
No need Eurofighter

even KIZILELMA can beat the RAFALE and F-16V in BVR combat

Kizilema alone is blind, so useless.
your E7 will be among the fiirst targets to be shoot (see Sindoor).
If the Rafale radar is under jamming, what about the L16 link?
Stop dreaming.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Furthermore, dependence on a single country poses a significant risk.

If the US doesn't provide F-16Vs / F-35s and imposes an embargo, we can supplement our fleet with Eurofighters from the UK

This is probably the most significant reason - ie diversification of sources and suppliers.

Turkey and UK to sign new defence partnership deal

The sensitive agreement is being compared to the 2021 defence pact between France and Greece, although sources declined to say whether it includes a mutual defence clause

www.middleeasteye.net

Joint Statement Regarding the Security and Defence Partnership Between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Republic of Türkiye

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Republic of Türkiye have today signed a new Security and Defence Partnership at the NATO Summit in Ankara, marking a significant milestone in their strong strategic partnership.

www.gov.uk

The UK and Turkieye have signed a defense partnership deal and while the contents are classified, it does suggest working together more in the future and not less on defence projects.

 

[MMM-E]

Kizilema alone is blind, so useless.

KIZILELMA has the latest technologies for active and passive detection

-- MURAD-100A Gan based AESA Radar
-- TOYGUN EOTS
-- KARAT IRST
-- FEWS-U Electronic Warfare Suite
-- T-Link data link

With the addition of stealth + swarm attack capabilities , manned Jets like F-15 , F-16 ,RAFALE will become useless against KIZILELMA.

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These state-of-the-art sensor suites primarily developed by ASELSAN will allow the KIZILELMA unmanned stealth Fighter Jet to operate under a "see without being seen" air combat doctrine.

 

[Corax]

Kizilema alone is blind, so useless.
your E7 will be among the fiirst targets to be shoot (see Sindoor).
If the Rafale radar is under jamming, what about the L16 link?
Stop dreaming.

What do you mean see sindoor? Are you telling me you think the indians shot down a PAF Erieye? Are you serious?

 

[MMM-E]

your E7 will be among the fiirst targets to be shoot (see Sindoor).

Greece-France-India-Pakistan lacks advanced technologies


Stand-off jamming determines the fate of air warfare.
When the ground-based KORAL-200 Radar EW System and the airborne ASOJ-23A stand off jammer Aircraft operate in an integrated manner

The Aegean skies are so overwhelmed with electromagnetic noise and spurious target signals (using Digital Radio Frequency Memory - DRFM technology) that SPECTRA becomes unable to distinguish the real E-7T signal from the spurious signals

Only Turkiye in the region



The AESA radar in the RAFALE is also blinded by this intense jamming. Instead of seeing the target on the screen, the radar is completely covered by interference. Because the radar is blinded, even if the RAFALE fires the METEOR missile, it cannot transmit the target coordinate data (the midpath correction link) that the Missile needs in the first phase.

Only USA and Turkiye in NATO
Stand off jammer Aircraft
USA : EA-37B
Turkiye : ASOJ-23A

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old RAFALE will be detected from 350 km away
and SIPER-2 AD Missiles will turn the RAFALE and F-16V into scrap of metal from 150+ km away in the Aegean


also KIZILELMA , F-16 OZGUR-2 , Eurofighter , KAAN , ANKA-III will protect the E-7T AEWC over Turkish air space

 

[BonPlan]

KIZILELMA has the latest technologies for active and passive detection

-- MURAD-100A Gan based AESA Radar
-- TOYGUN EOTS
-- KARAT IRST
-- FEWS-U Electronic Warfare Suite
-- T-Link data link

With the addition of stealth + swarm attack capabilities , manned Jets like F-15 , F-16 ,RAFALE will become useless against KIZILELMA.

----------------------------------------------

These state-of-the-art sensor suites primarily developed by ASELSAN will allow the KIZILELMA unmanned stealth Fighter Jet to operate under a "see without being seen" air combat doctrine.

there is no pilot in Kizilema : all is mastered by some one in a shelter, through data link. A data link is not stealth and can be jammed.

If you are so advanced, why struggling to have F35 ? a costly, not fully fonctionnal and >20 years old jet...

 

[BonPlan]

The Aegean skies are so overwhelmed with electromagnetic noise and spurious target signals (using Digital Radio Frequency Memory - DRFM technology) that SPECTRA becomes unable to distinguish the real E-7T signal from the spurious signals

Really.....
Turkey was making mainly pottery and rugs when France was studying and producing electronic counter measures and counter counter measures to enter in the USSR air space.

 

[MMM-E]

there is no pilot in Kizilema : all is mastered by some one in a shelter, through data link. A data link is not stealth and can be jammed.

SPECTRA is designed to carve a survival path for a single Fighter Jet, whereas KORAL-200A + ASOJ-23A are designed to blind whole air defense sectors ( specifically for high-power, long-range blinding )

so RAFALE can not jam the E-7T AEWC from 300-350 km away
SPECTRA can not jam the Link-16 on a KIZILELMA from 150 km away

Fast Frequency Hopping: Link-16 hops across 51 different frequencies up to 77,000 times per second. SPECTRA can not track and respond to these rapid changes over a 150 km distance in real-time.

and Greece-Israel-France-India dont have long range stand off jammer Aircaft

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[MMM-E]

If you are so advanced, why struggling to have F35 ? a costly, not fully fonctionnal and >20 years old jet...

Turkiye joined the F-35 program as a global partner in 2008
and we paid for 6 F-35s and we are waiting for our F-35s since 2018


and The F-35 is a 5th gen Fighter
old RAFALE , SU-35 , J-10C can not match with the F-35 in BVR combat
not even close

 

[MMM-E]

Really.....
Turkey was making mainly pottery and rugs when France was studying and producing electronic counter measures and counter counter measures to enter in the USSR air space.

Then show us French version of Turkish KORAL-200 and ASOJ-23A , instead of French pasta and wine