Turkish Naval Programs

when you're interested in discussing in good faith, let me know (y)

I am arguing in good faith, i just don't think you are realistic and drunk on Jingoism.

You just assume someone is a hater b/c they are skeptical of something. i offered my reasons for being skeptical. This is a very difficult talks and monumentally harder than building the bomb itself. For a wide variety of reasons.

Edit:

Anyways I have to go back to work, so I'll drop the conversation here.
 
Turkey's TFX project has realistic goals. First, we are aiming for a 4.5 generation fighter equivalent to the F-15. Later on, it will be a full-fledged fifth-generation fighter.
This is a very reasonable goal plan.
More accurately, I think.
The first priority of the TFX program is to have 100% Turkish-made 4.5th Gen fighters, and then gradually upgrade to 5th Gen fighters.
 
We are talking about the pinnacle of technology that only 5 countries in the world can do.

Turkey's TFX project has realistic goals. First, we are aiming for a 4.5 generation fighter equivalent to the F-15. Later on, it will be a full-fledged fifth-generation fighter.
It's the same idea with PAEC.

The first generation will not be a war-ready system; rather, just demonstrator for testing, data collection, and further learning of the technology. They would not get a full-fledged SSN platform until the 2nd or even 3rd generation; 20+ years, basically. If they start today, that's 2045, at least.

PAEC has been doing nuclear R&D for 60+ years, it's a genuine technology institution. They called on the government to invest in indigenous SMRs as a scalable way to electrify the country (which the government turned down because, as with a lot of things in Pakistan, the preference is for big shiny programs that are open to corruption, PR games, foreign contracts, etc).

However, the fact that PAEC is confident enough to pursue its own SMR tech shows us that it has a clear understanding of compact reactor tech. For PAEC, the issue would be (1) developing that tech and (2) further developing it as a propulsion suite for naval applications. It's confident enough to do (1), but to get it (2), it'd need serious funding. That is Pakistan's problem here -- lack of money.
 
@arslank01 and @Quwa many thanks for the nuanced perspectives and insights.

@arslank01 as you have correctly stated, this guy is arguing in bad faith and spinning the conversation in different directions because a) he doesn’t know what he’s talking about & 2) he’s incapable of accepting his argument doesn’t hold weight.

One can’t argue for argument sake. Unfortunately, he’s turned the conversation into a circular one with no legitimate outcome possible.
 
This is a comical timeline. 2075 to field boats.

How long has Pakistan been working on these Nuclear Submarines? I've been hearing about this nuclear submarine since the late 2000s.
It really is not. India started working SSBN and the specialized (miniaturized) reactors in 1980's. The first boat came out in 2016. This despite having Soviet and then Russian SSN's leased to IN at all times and the crew training on them for over a decade.

It's the same idea with PAEC.

The first generation will not be a war-ready system; rather, just demonstrator for testing, data collection, and further learning of the technology. They would not get a full-fledged SSN platform until the 2nd or even 3rd generation; 20+ years, basically. If they start today, that's 2045, at least.

PAEC has been doing nuclear R&D for 60+ years, it's a genuine technology institution. They called on the government to invest in indigenous SMRs as a scalable way to electrify the country (which the government turned down because, as with a lot of things in Pakistan, the preference is for big shiny programs that are open to corruption, PR games, foreign contracts, etc).

However, the fact that PAEC is confident enough to pursue its own SMR tech shows us that it has a clear understanding of compact reactor tech. For PAEC, the issue would be (1) developing that tech and (2) further developing it as a propulsion suite for naval applications. It's confident enough to do (1), but to get it (2), it'd need serious funding. That is Pakistan's problem here -- lack of money.

INS Arihant is similar. It has been treated as prototype to get data and know what to improve rather than solely for combat patrols (though it will still be deployed in combat patrol). It's effectiveness for combat patrols is very limited as it only has 750km ranged BM's which are useful only against Pakistan (these boats are not being built for Pakistan at all).

The follow on SSBN's including literally the second one Arighat is already an evolved version of Arihant. The next one is also different. The fourth one is going to be a bigger leap still and likely the version that the line stabilizes on.
 
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@arslank01 and @Quwa many thanks for the nuanced perspectives and insights.

@arslank01 as you have correctly stated, this guy is arguing in bad faith and spinning the conversation in different directions because a) he doesn’t know what he’s talking about & 2) he’s incapable of accepting his argument doesn’t hold weight.

One can’t argue for argument sake. Unfortunately, he’s turned the conversation into a circular one with no legitimate outcome possible.

@Deino is arguing in bad faith too right? lol
 
The first generation will not be a war-ready system; rather, just demonstrator for testing,

What do you expect a budget is from Nuclear Submarine development?

Do you know of a similar program where an incredible amount of money was spent with no results in the 1st gen other than experience is China, but you don't have the money China had to invest in the matter. China spent about $3-5 Billion(I've seen some estimates as high as $15 Billion for the whole project overall in today's money) on the Type 91 development which wasn't viable and was essentially a research project. The the question becomes can Pakistan spend $5-15 billion on essentially research project when its entire Defense Budget was about $8.5. thats a significant commitment.
 
@Deino is arguing in bad faith too right? lol

@Deino is a rigid German who believes non-Westerns can’t produce anything meaningful until verified by him. His default position is ‘not possible.’ You should have seen his views on many of your country’s weapon developments. Even the first flight of the TFX. Ironic you are using him as some sort of a reliable measure. As others said, he has his utility but also his limitations.
 
@Deino is a rigid German who believes non-Westerns can’t produce anything meaningful until verified by him. His default position is ‘not possible.’ You should have seen his views on many of your country’s weapon developments. Even the first flight of the TFX. Ironic you are using him as some sort of a reliable measure. As others said, he has his utility but also his limitations.

His background in assesing the Chinese Navy is second to none here. He is well aware of the hurdles China faced. This is why I referenced him.

It took China till 2006 to field a viable Nuclear Submarine with the Type 93, after the Failure of the Type 91 due to noise level making it not viable.

This is why i mentioned him, yes he is skeptical but that skepticism is warranted with Pakistan not having neither the Chinese Budget nor the expertise China had nor the outside help. The Soviets before the Sino Soviet Split transferred tech.
 
Anyways, enough of the Pakistan Nuclear Submarine stuff, I don't even remember this discussion being in the Turkish Section, but since its been moved here, lets call it a day and get back to Turkish news.
 
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Hisar Class now has VLS.
 
What do you expect a budget is from Nuclear Submarine development?

Do you know of a similar program where an incredible amount of money was spent with no results in the 1st gen other than experience is China, but you don't have the money China had to invest in the matter. China spent about $3-5 Billion(I've seen some estimates as high as $15 Billion for the whole project overall in today's money) on the Type 91 development which wasn't viable and was essentially a research project. The the question becomes can Pakistan spend $5-15 billion on essentially research project when its entire Defense Budget was about $8.5. thats a significant commitment.
Let's say it's $15 billion.

It's a very high figure, for sure, but would a rational policymaker look at it in isolation. In other words, is the person making this decision going to look at just the cost of the submarine, or as the cost of an R&D endeavour that can also result in other high-value output, like revolutionizing Pakistan's energy sector with an indigenous solution?

So, the $15 billion cost here involves:
  1. The direct cost of R&D for the SSN.
  2. The direct costs of R&D for the miniature reactor technology
  3. The direct costs of R&D for the industrial infrastructure necessary to support all this
  4. The direct cost of R&D for all the specific safety, efficiency, acoustic-reduction, etc., know-how that has to get produced.
My point here is that the $15 billion being spent is actually creating a lot of value in a lot of areas.

This one project, for example, can grow PAEC into a much bigger player in the SMR space. This can allow Pakistan to indigenously source its very own SMRs as a way of electrifying the whole country. In this endeavour, there can be a savings in foreign currency as now the design, development, IP and production will be handled by PAEC. Depending on the scale of the electrification effort, the total economic savings (from reducing hard currency outflows) can be $20-30 billion USD. Or, if we get out of America's sanction regime, go the next step and export our own SMRs and make $20-30 billion in foreign currency gains.

So, in that context alone, for the policymaker the SSN project would be worth it. The issue is that we wouldn't see the benefit in a few years, but rather, a few decades. Hence, the mentality of anyone in the decision-making chair needs to extend into the very long-term -- i.e., nation-building, not a cheap photo-op.

We can go into some other aspects too. Perhaps by learning how to create a capable SSN, the NRDI learns more about non-magnetic steel, acoustic control via thermal management, etc, or perhaps even innovate in new ways across these areas or some others, like power cabling.

Either the PN can leverage all of these insights to develop new generation warships of its own, OR, NRDI people can go off and spawn their own new companies to provide critical industrial goods to the world market. This would turn us into an exporter of high-value goods, like Turkiye.

Now the question is, can Pakistan fund it? I think so, but it'd take trade-offs, especially short-term costs for long and very long-term gains. For one thing, let's cut out all the property schemes and weird business ventures the military's probably involved in, be it directly or via intermediaries.

Next, curb back non-essential civil spending and fund PAEC instead. Why? Because the R&D output of PAEC can, potentially, drive economic benefits (again, long to very long-term) in other ways. So, cut out the fancy buildings (again) or trains or bus lines. If there's a need for any of that, then let the private sector invest and foot the whole bill. Otherwise, get the government out of those areas and laser-focus in on PAEC.

Finally, there are some more fundamental steps one can take to free up funding... E.g., go DOGE on the provincial system (i.e., get rid of it and rework governance with a strong national center with smaller municipally-led districts), raise the tax to GDP ratio by taxing agriculture and real-estate (force people's incentives to shift to new industries), and, if we're really gutsy, stop paying the interest on loans whose principals have all been paid off.

We take these steps, I'm sure we can free up $5-15 billion USD in funding every year.
 
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