Who Created Harappan / Indus Valley Civilisation? | How Did It End? | Samvaad With Devdutt Pattanaik

I'm talking about the naming of "India".
Yeah us.
And yes it is true, as far as we know, that the Persians and their Greek subjects derived the nomenclature from the Sanskrit for a specific river but guess what? It ONLY applies to that river, even in your own sacred texts. These texts do not refer to an actual continuous political entity but rather a hopeful vision of what Bharat should be. Clearly, apart from briefly under Ashoka, these disparate regions were never unified in reality. Even if they were, why would you accept calling it India, after only ONE of the rivers mentioned in your script?
Says you. The people who used that term didn't limit it, also Gandhara still has Indus flowing that in itself defeats your argument. Why not call em India. And again, why dwell so much on the Sanskrit nomenclature when the name is itself ultimately derived from Sanskrit? If I'm named Varuna, the fact that someone pronounces or adapts my name differently doesn't somehow mean I'm no longer the Varuna. If it's convenient I adopt that name too.
Tell me, what do ancient Sanskrit texts refer to the WHOLE subcontinent as, or even coterminous Bharat? Is it "India" or is it something else??
It's in the Indian constitution itself, India that is Bharat.
"INDIA" is beyond all doubt an exonym, bequeathed unto the region of the Indus specifically by foreigners who used the word for ONE of the rivers identified in your scriptures.
So what if we adopted that exonym. It's afterall our name. It has been for thousands of years.
 
You guys aren’t the only “Hindus.” The word itself comes from Sindhu and originally referred to the people of the Indus, long before it became the religious identity you use it for today.

Us being Muslim doesn’t magically erase where we come from or our ancestry. Again, Islam is a religion, not a race or a bloodline. Our ancestors didn’t suddenly stop being people of the Indus because their descendants became Muslim.

Not that hard to connect the dots.
Congratulations, you've rediscovered my argument. Islam is a religion, not an ancestry. Pakistani Muslims didn't become Arabs by converting to Islam. Likewise, Steppe ancestry doesn't turn an Indian Hindu into a Steppe nomad, and Indo-Iranian antecedents don't relocate the historical development of Hindu traditions out of South Asia. Also, you're now defending your connection to Sindhu the Sanskrit word from which Hindu itself derives. Welcome aboard.
You know who else says what you said. The RSS and who base their Akhand Bharat on similar wording to yours. Lol!
 
Tipu giving choice between convert and death is not freemarket of ideas

Suddenly you change your time periods lol


Tipu sultan came when ..... So it's irrelevant , 700 to 1700......



The next millennia can be spent going over your historical losses, in the free market of ideas, war, technology, connection with god....you have made a national pass time out of it, it should be kept within India

So therefore what's the ivc to you in this context? It's not historical heritage but desperate imagined historical rebalancing
 
Suddenly you change your time periods lol


Tipu sultan came when ..... So it's irrelevant , 700 to 1700......



The next millennia can be spent going over your historical losses, in the free market of ideas, war, technology, connection with god....you have made a national pass time out of it, it should be kept within India

So therefore what's the ivc to you in this context? It's not historical heritage but desperate imagined historical rebalancing
I didn't, you asked for an info I gave it to you, you said Keralites decided to become Muslims I told you how. 700 AD and later migrants were traders from the Middle East. Some settled long term. They weren't really into proselytising but more into setting up trading outposts. That's why these towns still have a "different bit of Muslims, Christians (and Jews, though left for Israel)".

The historical loses you're talking about is your projection also because you have no idea how the politics in the state is, if you put Kerala Muslims in Pakistan you guys will lynch them for blasphemy that's all I'm gonna say for now. The future you said is not the future you think it is.

As for IVC, I have gone over about it more than enough at this point. So far you haven't brought any compelling argument about the ending, it's the usual invasion - converaion trope without any evidence.
 
didn't, you asked for an info I gave it to you, you said Keralites decided to become Muslims


No I stated what happened in 7th century

Islam was an attractive powerful belief.



The historical loses you're talking about is your projection

this thread is another historical loss, in many ways

because it's not your history, what you tried to steal is now being corrected.

The thief has realised the game is up.

So far you haven't brought any compelling argument


For the Indian mind it's an argument, for the rest it's just historical enquiry.
Yes then leave the thread on that basis.
 
Yeah us.

Says you. The people who used that term didn't limit it, also Gandhara still has Indus flowing that in itself defeats your argument. Why not call em India. And again, why dwell so much on the Sanskrit nomenclature when the name is itself ultimately derived from Sanskrit? If I'm named Varuna, the fact that someone pronounces or adapts my name differently doesn't somehow mean I'm no longer the Varuna. If it's convenient I adopt that name too.

It's in the Indian constitution itself, India that is Bharat.

So what if we adopted that exonym. It's afterall our name. It has been for thousands of years.
Agreed in principle. Foreign imposed or derived nomenclature, languages, and ideologies, should be judged on merit, not on who brought them and from where. Glad you have started to understand this simple rationality.

THAT SAID, "India" is inaccurate as a descriptor of ANY sort for your kind specifically, for the explanations provided over the last couple of days (and repeatedly in the past). The word itself is more accurately co-located to Pakistan than it is to Bharat.

Indeed, this simple misappropriation of nomenclature is what has caused 79 years of confusion among gangetics who think, erroneously, they have some form of descendancy "claim" over the IVC. It will probably continue for some time yet until reasonable folk come to this acceptance. Russians and Poles have very similar genomic profiles and neighbour each other (including, btw, our old mutual friend, R1a!.. lolz!) but they are distinct nations, comfortable in their respective identities. Poles don't claim Russia as some "lost heartland" and Russians are the same regarding Poland. Imagine if Poles had "called themselves" or "self identified as" a nation called "Muscovia". They would have spent centuries obsessing and spewing nonsense about their "claims" over the Volga or the Urals or the vast Muscovian plains.

As for your comments on "limiting the geographical boundaries of ancient India", I have already explained the original source of the phraseology and its clear intent in geographical terms from those who imposed the term upon us all. The term "INDIA" IS NOT MENTIONED IN VEDIC SCRIPT FOR THE AREA OF MODERN INDIA IN ITS ENTIRETY; THE TERM GIVEN WAS BHARAT. IF IVC NEVER EXISTED OR WAS SHIELDED FROM YOUR VIEW, YOUR PEOPLE WOULD HAVE CHOSEN BHARAT.

If others have come along later and regarded the whole region as the "Indian subcontinent", it remains a reasonable and accurate geographical descriptor for them, although erroneously oversimplified. Of course, we now know that it was a poor choice because apparently, deployment of this term as an innocent descriptor leads gangetics from Nehru onwards to claim some form of retrofitted ownership! I suppose the Indian Ocean is also administered by a call centre in Lucknow these days.

I do, of course, understand why there is a need among those cultural descendants of elephant riders to urgently retrospectively associate with and reverse engineer their history on that of the city builders to their west but it is all based on a nehruvian error of nomenclature and nothing more.

Gandhara is mentioned repeatedly by you as if it is some flex, but it actually further supports the PAKISTANI POSITION. Does it matter to my argument if the option of being called "India" was NOT availed by them or their owners? Of course not! They are not obliged to call themselves "India". They or their owners will choose any name they like. What they should categorically not do, to avert civilisational confusion and legacy theft, is call themselves "Gangadesh" or "China" or "Russia". Likewise, Pakistan could easily have called itself "India", an entirely accurate national descriptor - that we did not doesn't suddenly leave the term "available" for false usurpers like some personalised number plate on Ebay.

Do you recall the episode between FYROM and Greece? Very instructive in this context. Give it a read when you have time. FYROM took it to the point of naming their airport after Alexander of Macedon. Greece pushed back, rightly so!
 
"south asia" is a british colonial phrase used to describe the lands that the british ruled and referred to as "the british raj".

No, you're are completely wrong.

There exists extreme laziness, on both sides with regards to use of names, especially "India". I have also seen it in this thread, but since i am not in mood to get involved right now, I have kept quiet.

The actual British created phrase is "India". In the modern sense They literally created it.
The use and interpretation of the name India is extremely redundant. At it's core, it was used 2000 years ago within a certain context by outsiders to define a territory for Their own understanding. It had no basis in reality, except a very narrow definition largely relegated to the Punjab and Sindh, not even the Indus, a mere satrapy of the Persians. Even then, it's pronunciation was different.

2000 years later, the British created a colony by conquering a region, South Asia, it took them nearly 100 years, and decided to call it India. It is literally a British creation.

In the preceding 2000 years, the Europeans had used the name India loosely, for their own understanding, not because there was an actual India which existed in South Asia.

Please don't get hung up on a name, because when it starts creating confusion or falsehoods, it has lost it's meaning. A name should have a clear definition, without confusion.

Have you been gay any time this week?
100% sure you were gay numerous times in the previous week. If you said no, i would call you a Liar.
The meaning of Gay was to be happy and joyful.
Right now, it means homosexual.
Once a word loses it's meaning, it's time to stop using it loosely. Words are used in reference to the times in which we live. Otherwise you create falsehoods.

Next time you're feeling extremely happy, tell your parents or your wife that your feeling extremely Gay. Then spend few hours explaining the original meaning and the modern interpretations.
You will not dare use that word, because the meaning has changed. The name logic applies with regards to India, Indian subcontinent and South Asia.

When India came into being in 1947, with it's defined borders, all other words which contained the word Indian needed to be and should have been reevaluated. Sometimes it is not possible for various reasons, but also because the use of that term does not imply falsehoods.
Indian ocean does not mean it is India's ocean, it is merely a term.

But Indian subcontinent implies a false unitary existence, it links it directly to the Indian state created in 1947. It robs other countries including Pakistan of their own history. You're doing exactly the opposite of what you want to achieve.

Most people don't care about the arguments being discussed in this thread, or anything else. They use a name and with that name is attached a simple easy to understand meaning. That's how life works.

Life works in easy to understand definitions, anything which is repeated becomes easy. It is important to define things in easy terms because Everyday statements and references are attached to those simple definitions.
When you use the term Indian subcontinent, it creates an Indian meaning.
When you use the term South Asia, it creates a neutral meaning, allowing each country to claim their own history within their borders.
Both terms/names were created by humans, neither is inherently more valuable then the other, the value is held by the meaning they convey.

So, while you can discuss what India meant to the Greeks, or what it meant to Tom Dick or Harry, it matters for nought.
Because when you use the word India or Indian, to over 90% of the people they associate that word with the country created in 1947. To them your history is Indian history, no matter how many justifications you present, how many arguments you win, no matter how brilliantly you are applauded for having a solid argument. You will always lose.

To over 90% of people, including your own people, you shall remain the word you decide to use. Which in this case is the lazy, ignorant and habitual use of the term "Indian" as a suffix or a prefix, or as a stand alone term pre 1947.

When you have to over explain a name, justify as to why it existed, that name has lost its meaning. You have lost all your arguments. Therefore, use names which need no explanation, which carry simple clear cut meanings.
With regards to this region, it's South Asia. Subcontinent means it's Indian and India's, but you're free to spend an hour explaining afterwards why it's not Indian.
Why explain when you can just choose to use the correct term in the first place. Like you wouldn't tell your parents you're feeling extremely gay today.

Personally i hate the term Ancestral North Indian and Ancestral South Indian, because it creates other falsehoods. There's still enough time to change that definition, but that's another discussion, plus it's largely a state led effort.

South Asia is a descriptive term.
Indian subcontinent is a descriptive term.
India is a descriptive term.

They were all created by someone, one does not hold greater value over then other, the only value they have is the meaning attached to each of them.

Subcontinent is a geological term, tectonic plates, that's it, nothing more. That's a fact.

United Nations has defined names for all regions of the world, South Asia is a region. It is the only internationally recognised legal name for this region.
It's a geographical and a geopolitical term. It's a real life term.

I cannot remember the exact reference but the earliest recorded use of the term South Asia is actually in Persian. I heard this from a Pakistani author in a book launch discussion. It is not a recent term, it's about as old as usage of subcontinent, possibly older, but i have already written enough and it's not directly relevant to my argument.

India has various definitions depending on how it is used and in which point in time. It's a meaningless term. In modern times, India is a country created in 1947, that's it. That's a fact.

Learn to use correct and appropriate terms, otherwise you'll continue to shoot yourself in the foot.

Exonyms are nothing unusual, people have used terms to describe others throughout history, it doesn't mean it is an actual reality. The Arabs referred to Europeans as Franks. Are all Europeans Franks or do they have an actual reality of their own.
Likewise Europeans used to refer to Muslims as Saracens. Are all Muslims Saracens or do they have an actual reality of their own.


Correct use of correct Words matters.
 
I'm talking about the naming of "India".

And yes it is true, as far as we know, that the Persians and their Greek subjects derived the nomenclature from the Sanskrit for a specific river but guess what? It ONLY applies to that river, even in your own sacred texts. These texts do not refer to an actual continuous political entity but rather a hopeful vision of what Bharat should be. Clearly, apart from briefly under Ashoka, these disparate regions were never unified in reality. Even if they were, why would you accept calling it India, after only ONE of the rivers mentioned in your script?

Tell me, what do ancient Sanskrit texts refer to the WHOLE subcontinent as, or even coterminous Bharat? Is it "India" or is it something else??

"INDIA" is beyond all doubt an exonym, bequeathed unto the region of the Indus specifically by foreigners who used the word for ONE of the rivers identified in your scriptures.

This. This. This. The BS of a "whole India" with some historical precedent has to be buried, there was/is South Asia, and competing countries/empires over the millennia that were independent and sovereign.
 
Sorry, but that's a poor comparison, Persia has actual history. The issue isn't just the naming but whether that naming has any relevance to the reality on the ground.
Persia did.

India, Bharat or Hindustan did not and does not. They're still in the process of nation building, trying to create a nation. The only language which unifies them is English, a foreign language. Despite trying to impose Hindi, people refuse to accept "Hindi imposition". Which is why they still do not have a national language.

I love the fact you're using "modern" Pakistan to convey our continuous heritage. It's good but we need to move on and use the name Pakistan as a default acceptable term to describe the history of the Indus region throughout the ages.
Most nations in the world are modern nations, including the name but the term "modern" is not applied to them. It's good to see people like you are making an effort, but we need to continue improving.



It would help the cause if we bin the term Indian subcontinent to the dustbin of history. The only relevant term is South Asia, it eliminates any confusion.

"Subcontinent" is merely a geological term, geology is what is below ground, the tectonic plates.

"South Asia" is a geographical and geopolitical term. The only legally recognised term by the United Nations,
Geography is what's above ground, the landscape, the rivers, mountains, forests and the land.

Geo political is the human societies, their existence and how they operate.

1. Subcontinent merely a geological term, nothing more.

2. South Asia covers the geography (Land) and the geopolitics (People).

Agree - we need to move away from using the term India to describe the geographical and geo-political markers when discussing history of the region. Using the term India creates a perception of longevity that does not exist. South Asia exists, and has for many millennia, India is an off shoot of the British Raj.
 
No, you're are completely wrong.

There exists extreme laziness, on both sides with regards to use of names, especially "India". I have also seen it in this thread, but since i am not in mood to get involved right now, I have kept quiet.

The actual British created phrase is "India". In the modern sense They literally created it.
The use and interpretation of the name India is extremely redundant. At it's core, it was used 2000 years ago within a certain context by outsiders to define a territory for Their own understanding. It had no basis in reality, except a very narrow definition largely relegated to the Punjab and Sindh, not even the Indus, a mere satrapy of the Persians. Even then, it's pronunciation was different.

2000 years later, the British created a colony by conquering a region, South Asia, it took them nearly 100 years, and decided to call it India. It is literally a British creation.

In the preceding 2000 years, the Europeans had used the name India loosely, for their own understanding, not because there was an actual India which existed in South Asia.

Please don't get hung up on a name, because when it starts creating confusion or falsehoods, it has lost it's meaning. A name should have a clear definition, without confusion.

Have you been gay any time this week?
100% sure you were gay numerous times in the previous week. If you said no, i would call you a Liar.
The meaning of Gay was to be happy and joyful.
Right now, it means homosexual.
Once a word loses it's meaning, it's time to stop using it loosely. Words are used in reference to the times in which we live. Otherwise you create falsehoods.

Next time you're feeling extremely happy, tell your parents or your wife that your feeling extremely Gay. Then spend few hours explaining the original meaning and the modern interpretations.
You will not dare use that word, because the meaning has changed. The name logic applies with regards to India, Indian subcontinent and South Asia.

When India came into being in 1947, with it's defined borders, all other words which contained the word Indian needed to be and should have been reevaluated. Sometimes it is not possible for various reasons, but also because the use of that term does not imply falsehoods.
Indian ocean does not mean it is India's ocean, it is merely a term.

But Indian subcontinent implies a false unitary existence, it links it directly to the Indian state created in 1947. It robs other countries including Pakistan of their own history. You're doing exactly the opposite of what you want to achieve.

Most people don't care about the arguments being discussed in this thread, or anything else. They use a name and with that name is attached a simple easy to understand meaning. That's how life works.

Life works in easy to understand definitions, anything which is repeated becomes easy. It is important to define things in easy terms because Everyday statements and references are attached to those simple definitions.
When you use the term Indian subcontinent, it creates an Indian meaning.
When you use the term South Asia, it creates a neutral meaning, allowing each country to claim their own history within their borders.
Both terms/names were created by humans, neither is inherently more valuable then the other, the value is held by the meaning they convey.

So, while you can discuss what India meant to the Greeks, or what it meant to Tom Dick or Harry, it matters for nought.
Because when you use the word India or Indian, to over 90% of the people they associate that word with the country created in 1947. To them your history is Indian history, no matter how many justifications you present, how many arguments you win, no matter how brilliantly you are applauded for having a solid argument. You will always lose.

To over 90% of people, including your own people, you shall remain the word you decide to use. Which in this case is the lazy, ignorant and habitual use of the term "Indian" as a suffix or a prefix, or as a stand alone term pre 1947.

When you have to over explain a name, justify as to why it existed, that name has lost its meaning. You have lost all your arguments. Therefore, use names which need no explanation, which carry simple clear cut meanings.
With regards to this region, it's South Asia. Subcontinent means it's Indian and India's, but you're free to spend an hour explaining afterwards why it's not Indian.
Why explain when you can just choose to use the correct term in the first place. Like you wouldn't tell your parents you're feeling extremely gay today.

Personally i hate the term Ancestral North Indian and Ancestral South Indian, because it creates other falsehoods. There's still enough time to change that definition, but that's another discussion, plus it's largely a state led effort.

South Asia is a descriptive term.
Indian subcontinent is a descriptive term.
India is a descriptive term.

They were all created by someone, one does not hold greater value over then other, the only value they have is the meaning attached to each of them.

Subcontinent is a geological term, tectonic plates, that's it, nothing more. That's a fact.

United Nations has defined names for all regions of the world, South Asia is a region. It is the only internationally recognised legal name for this region.
It's a geographical and a geopolitical term. It's a real life term.

I cannot remember the exact reference but the earliest recorded use of the term South Asia is actually in Persian. I heard this from a Pakistani author in a book launch discussion. It is not a recent term, it's about as old as usage of subcontinent, possibly older, but i have already written enough and it's not directly relevant to my argument.

India has various definitions depending on how it is used and in which point in time. It's a meaningless term. In modern times, India is a country created in 1947, that's it. That's a fact.

Learn to use correct and appropriate terms, otherwise you'll continue to shoot yourself in the foot.

Exonyms are nothing unusual, people have used terms to describe others throughout history, it doesn't mean it is an actual reality. The Arabs referred to Europeans as Franks. Are all Europeans Franks or do they have an actual reality of their own.
Likewise Europeans used to refer to Muslims as Saracens. Are all Muslims Saracens or do they have an actual reality of their own.


Correct use of correct Words matters.
Brilliant Brilliant Brilliant 👏

This post hits the mark in so many ways.

We are all here guilty of laziness of nomenclature, mostly because of the antecedent confusion introduced in 1947 to the word "India" and its derivatives. I too am fully aware of the limitations of "Asian subcontinent", "Indian subcontinent", and even "South Asia", depending on the contexts.

I agree - and was previously convinced by you no less - that South Asia is least harmful in the context of historical discussion and this specific thread.

Let me add though, context regarding why "South Asia" is sometimes problematic, which is perhaps what has been alluded to by others on other threads... we don't wish to be "lumped" together with Bharatis in the context of diaspora communities, as an example. Indeed, the term is deployed strategically by you know who, to create passive collateral benefit when a Pakistani achieves but when a Pakistani fails, naturally, the collective term South Asians is avoided. I get what critics mean about "South Asia" being harmful in this context. But you are 100% right that this term is correct when there is a need to avoid bias in historical and anthropological discourse.

Pakistan is the best descriptor for coterminous and ancient Pakistan. Bharat is the descriptor for coterminous Bharat that would cause least confusion. But we know why they deploy "India" and why they deploy "South Asia", depending on circumstances.

As you said, it is important (but difficult given human laziness and an inclination to type what is quickest!) that we INSIST on the correct term terms for the context at hand.

As an aside, David Reich himself was also against Ancestral North Indian and Ancestral South Indian because he KNEW these were clandestine pseudo-academic efforts at MISAPPROPRIATION of South Asian heritage by Indians. He also would have chosen terms that more accurately reflected the realities of the geography, prior to The Secular Republic's usurping of the entirety of South Asia's shared legacies. He was convinced (read, forced) by the usual "secular" suspects posing as academics to our east to use terms ANI, ASI. This is well documented in fact, though some will try to expunge it from the records.

"The ancient genetic terms ANI(Ancestral North Indians) and ASI (Ancestral South Indians) were created because the Indian government would not allow the terms West Eurasians and Indigenous South Asians"



Just imagine, from a genomic perspective, I have to argue with the usual suspects here using false terminology within which the word "Indian" is deliberately and malevolently embedded, when in truth, NONE of what we discuss relates specifically to the Secular Republic of India!

"West Eurasians" and "Indigenous South Asians" creates a whole different scaffolding within which such discourse would ensue! Suddenly, "South asians" would not be subconsciously interchangeable with "indians".

It's manipulated science that we are fighting against, trying to undo.
 
@peagle @PAKISTANFOREVER

(Chapter 10: The Genomics of Race and Identity, emphasis added):

“In India, we learned that in order to get the work published, we had to make a compromise. We had to let the Indian researchers write the paper in a way that puts a gloss on what the genetic data actually show.

“The compromise was to describe the mixing of different groups in India as having occurred between ‘Ancestral North Indians’ and ‘Ancestral South Indians,’ a terminology that implies parity between the groups, rather than calling them what they really were: a mixture between West Eurasians (including Steppe migrants) and indigenous South Asians.

“It was a politically motivated maneuver to avoid inflaming what is perhaps the most politically sensitive topic in India: the origin of the caste system.”

Source - Who we are and how we got here : David Reich
 
No I stated what happened in 7th century

Islam was an attractive powerful belief.
Archeology is your biggest enemy then.
this thread is another historical loss, in many ways

because it's not your history, what you tried to steal is now being corrected.

The thief has realised the game is up.
Nobody tried to steal anything. Do you think people are paying close attention to who gets Indus valley like the weight of the world shifts from one to another?
For the Indian mind it's an argument,
Even less, 10th grade NCERT revision. The OG syllabus.
 
@peagle @PAKISTANFOREVER

(Chapter 10: The Genomics of Race and Identity, emphasis added):

“In India, we learned that in order to get the work published, we had to make a compromise. We had to let the Indian researchers write the paper in a way that puts a gloss on what the genetic data actually show.

“The compromise was to describe the mixing of different groups in India as having occurred between ‘Ancestral North Indians’ and ‘Ancestral South Indians,’ a terminology that implies parity between the groups, rather than calling them what they really were: a mixture between West Eurasians (including Steppe migrants) and indigenous South Asians.

“It was a politically motivated maneuver to avoid inflaming what is perhaps the most politically sensitive topic in India: the origin of the caste system.”

Source - Who we are and how we got here : David Reich


This is more confirmation that the evidence is pointing to the fact that the great ancients civilizations of the Indus Valley, Harappa and Mohenjendaro have 0 connection to modern day indians. Why some can't accept those facts is beyond me.
 
Agreed in principle. Foreign imposed or derived nomenclature, languages, and ideologies, should be judged on merit, not on who brought them and from where. Glad you have started to understand this simple rationality.

THAT SAID, "India" is inaccurate as a descriptor of ANY sort for your kind specifically, for the explanations provided over the last couple of days (and repeatedly in the past). The word itself is more accurately co-located to Pakistan than it is to Bharat.

Indeed, this simple misappropriation of nomenclature is what has caused 79 years of confusion among gangetics who think, erroneously, they have some form of descendancy "claim" over the IVC. It will probably continue for some time yet until reasonable folk come to this acceptance. Russians and Poles have very similar genomic profiles and neighbour each other (including, btw, our old mutual friend, R1a!.. lolz!) but they are distinct nations, comfortable in their respective identities. Poles don't claim Russia as some "lost heartland" and Russians are the same regarding Poland. Imagine if Poles had "called themselves" or "self identified as" a nation called "Muscovia". They would have spent centuries obsessing and spewing nonsense about their "claims" over the Volga or the Urals or the vast Muscovian plains.

As for your comments on "limiting the geographical boundaries of ancient India", I have already explained the original source of the phraseology and its clear intent in geographical terms from those who imposed the term upon us all. The term "INDIA" IS NOT MENTIONED IN VEDIC SCRIPT FOR THE AREA OF MODERN INDIA IN ITS ENTIRETY; THE TERM GIVEN WAS BHARAT. IF IVC NEVER EXISTED OR WAS SHIELDED FROM YOUR VIEW, YOUR PEOPLE WOULD HAVE CHOSEN BHARAT.

If others have come along later and regarded the whole region as the "Indian subcontinent", it remains a reasonable and accurate geographical descriptor for them, although erroneously oversimplified. Of course, we now know that it was a poor choice because apparently, deployment of this term as an innocent descriptor leads gangetics from Nehru onwards to claim some form of retrofitted ownership! I suppose the Indian Ocean is also administered by a call centre in Lucknow these days.

I do, of course, understand why there is a need among those cultural descendants of elephant riders to urgently retrospectively associate with and reverse engineer their history on that of the city builders to their west but it is all based on a nehruvian error of nomenclature and nothing more.

Gandhara is mentioned repeatedly by you as if it is some flex, but it actually further supports the PAKISTANI POSITION. Does it matter to my argument if the option of being called "India" was NOT availed by them or their owners? Of course not! They are not obliged to call themselves "India". They or their owners will choose any name they like. What they should categorically not do, to avert civilisational confusion and legacy theft, is call themselves "Gangadesh" or "China" or "Russia". Likewise, Pakistan could easily have called itself "India", an entirely accurate national descriptor - that we did not doesn't suddenly leave the term "available" for false usurpers like some personalised number plate on Ebay.

Do you recall the episode between FYROM and Greece? Very instructive in this context. Give it a read when you have time. FYROM took it to the point of naming their airport after Alexander of Macedon. Greece pushed back, rightly so!
You're now confusing three completely different things etymology, geographical usage, and modern territorial inheritance.

Sure India is an exonym or you can call yourselves India, go ahead nobody is stopping you. Although the British would've laughed their way to London if presented at the time. But you're a sovereign state you can, you got the indus, you got Sindh, so India maybe, but India wasn't partitioned based on boundaries of IV was it? Yet I agree with you.

What doesn't follow is that the geographical meaning of “India” was frozen forever at the boundaries of Hindus. Hecateus could already identify Indians in Gandhara despite Gandara and Hindi being distinct Achaemenid territories, and Herodotus knew of Indians outside Persian rule. By Megasthnees the matter is explicit. Say description of Pataliputra as “the greatest city in India.” So Gangetic being Indian isn't some Nehruvian reinterpretation invented in 1947. Greeks were applying India to the Gangetic world more than two millennia earlier.

Sure Pakistan has IVC sites it was first discovered by the British in Indus valley hence the name. But what Pakistan doesn't acquire from that fact is exclusive biological ownership of the Harappans. Ancient DNA shows IVC related ancestry contributed extensively to later South Asian populations on both sides of a border created thousands of years later. So if you want to push this disconnect further you should find your own skeleton remains with DNA, not kang on our scientific research and development based on our archeological excavation in our sites. Keep pushing we will get there.

Also none of your points establishes your actual proposition that Gangetic Indians connection to IVC populations is a Nehruvian illusion produced by a stolen name. Ancient DNA has made that argument obsolete.

If so what exactly is Pakistan, a land that's sparsely populated once, exploding in population only because British invented better irrigation canal system. Founded by a Gujarati, and still using language founded in Delhi now is claiming to be India, Sanskrit Vedas, IVC. We are not confused about our identity. We are Indians you should be Pakistani and create history for years to come, not try to claim you are this and that when you dropped any hint of the culture, you created Pakistan to prove Muslims are not Hindus take pride in breaking idols and erasing them. Now you took a 180 or maybe you're just trying to prove Hindus and Indians are not Hindus and Indians lol! However rare you guys are I do appreciate the hustle.
 
Sure Pakistan has IVC sites it was first discovered by the British in Indus valley hence the name. But what Pakistan doesn't acquire from that fact is exclusive biological ownership of the Harappans. Ancient DNA shows IVC related ancestry contributed extensively to later South Asian populations on both sides of a border created thousands of years later. So if you want to push this disconnect further you should find your own skeleton remains with DNA, not kang on our scientific research and development based on our archeological excavation in our sites. Keep pushing we will get there.

Can you post some links to GENUINE, CREDIBLE, INDEPENDENT and IRREFUTABLE evidence that confirms the above claims?
 

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