Who Created Harappan / Indus Valley Civilisation? | How Did It End? | Samvaad With Devdutt Pattanaik

[Neojinnah]

No one in Italy disowns Roman Empire. Latin Alphabet and Christianity is from Roman Era. No one in Germany disputes their descendants were the Germanic tribes. the definition of what is Germanic has evolved over time. It is German.

Both Italy and Germany are basically originally multiethnic countries where large swathes of people are not descended from Germanic tribes or ancient Romans and were assimilated into that identity very recently, so you're wrong. It's this kind of elementary level understanding of the world which leads to Indians making ridiculous assertions.

The language, culture is all there.

Not true. India is a typical post colonial country born out of foreign British rule, modernity, globalization, etc. The culture is a product of this and the official language is English because the inhabitants dont have a common language. But the elite of India are religious fanatics and chauvinists in denial, so they have this delusion that they're exactly the same as people from thousands of years ago.

 

[nahtanbob]

Both Italy and Germany are basically originally multiethnic countries where large swathes of people are not descended from Germanic tribes or ancient Romans and were assimilated into that identity very recently, so you're wrong. It's this kind of elementary level understanding of the world which leads to Indians making ridiculous assertions.

What other ethnicity lives in Italy and Germany proper ?

Not true. India is a typical post colonial country born out of foreign British rule. The culture is a product of this and the official language is English because the inhabitants dont have a common language. But the elite of India are religious fanatics and chauvinists in denial, so they have this delusion that they're exactly the same as people from thousands of years ago.

I have told you the definition keeps changing

you have not answered which people called Indika gets written in 3rd century BC
Or why half a dozen European countries would start East India Companies in the 16th century ?

 

[Neojinnah]

What other ethnicity lives in Italy and Germany proper ?

Albanians, Slavs, and Germanic people in Italy. Poles and Slavs in Germany.
It's incredible how as an Indian you make so many confident assertons about the world and yet demand to be spoonfed what should be basic information. Just one among the myriad of ways engaging with ignorant and obnoxious Hindu fanatics becomes a tiresome chore.

You have not answered which people called Indika gets written in 3rd century BC
Or why half a dozen European countries would start East India Companies in the 16th century ?

Why does it matter? Indika comes from the Sanskrit word Sindhu. There are hundreds of millions of Dravidian Hindus in India today with ancestors who spoke a completely different language to Sanskrit. So why are you kanging on Indika and thinking it will prove your point?

 

[Master Chief]

What other ethnicity lives in Italy and Germany proper ?


I have told you the definition keeps changing

you have not answered which people called Indika gets written in 3rd century BC
Or why half a dozen European countries would start East India Companies in the 16th century ?

You're recycling the same old argument. Not sure why Germania is cited as an example of disparate cultures forming a single polity, as the features of this supposed analogue are quite different from what we see in South Asia.

Germania was the Latin name for Deutschland. Deutschland was the endonym for the Rhineland germanic peoples who resisted Roman rule together (no foreign power imposed the name upon them). The Roman advance politically unified these once warring peoples. Beyond that, they shared languages, DNA, and cultures. This is already substantially different to the South Asian experience. You can take any period in history you like, IVC, Alexander, Maurya, Mughals, British - the traits shared between germanic peoples (DNA, linguistics, culture, religion, even endonymy) did not (to varying degrees) align for South Asian peoples.

Even having said all that, Germanic peoples NEVER actually unified entirely. Hitler didn't even manage it. Anglo-Saxons are a germanic people and they spread far and wide, so how on earth is it even possible for them to unify into a single nation state?

Here's what "India" looked like when white colonisers decided to take over. You're sitting here telling me this was some "unified" front against "non-natives"? (See below)

You can go further back.

Did the Nandas suggest a united defence with Porus against Alexander's advance, or were the Nandas and Porus actually rivals, so much so that Porus was left to his fate despite being supposedly "native barhadari"?

At NO SIGNIFICANT POINT in known history (Harappan era, post-Harappan era, Mauryan era, Mughal era, British colonial era..) can the claim be justifiably and evidently made that the tribes of the Indus and the tribes of the Ganga (+southies) were EVER a united political entity. On the contrary, they rivalled each other (as did MANY other groups within south Asia) and even REPEATEDLY AND CONSISTENTLY plotted each other's downfall with help from Europeans!

Shall we discuss the Marathas and their "unified defence of mother India" next?? Tipu might want to join the chat.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

What does "scholarly consensus" tell us about the Achaemenid satrapy called Hindush? That it did not extend into eastern gangetic realms.

Big deal. Later it did and you can't freeze it neither can it is violating any rules or laws. But then again where is the proof that both had different cultures?

What does "scholarly consensus" tell us about the land mass called "India" as a geographical entity, in terms of its unified status (whether a single polity or united city states)?

Nobody gives a shit about if it was unified seperated by political boundaries. If it did then historical accounts would have used different names for each political entity.

AI response explicitly from scholarly works: "India became a single unified nation-state under a single sovereign government when the Republic of India was established with its constitution in 1950, following independence from Britain in 1947.

You're confusing a modern nation state with a historical geographical, civilisational term again. Also, India became an independent Dominion in 1947 and 1950 marks becoming a republic under its Constitution, not the first existence of India as a political entity.

Before this modern era, the Indian subcontinent was never a single unified nation-state, though certain large empires brought vast regions under one imperial ruler.Early Imperial UnificationThe Mauryan Empire (c. 300–185 BCE): Emperor Ashoka united a large majority of the northern and central subcontinent under one rule, though parts of the far south remained independent.The Mughal Empire (16th–17th century): Under rulers like Akbar and Aurangzeb, the Mughals controlled most of northern and central India, but they never fully conquered the far south or the northeast."

So what? My argument has never required continuous political unity. Political fragmentation does not invalidate a geographical or civilisational category.

Did we not already agree that the land mass of "India" (the erroneous and oversimplified extrapolation of the original Achaemenid definition) was only ever unified by Mauryans, Mughals, and Brits? Similarly, Europe has been forcibly unified at several points in history. The similarities are uncanny in fact. India is as much a country as Europe is. Luckily for you, keeping everybody deliberately stupid in your country helps preserve the illusion.

Except Europe never became a sovereign state called Europe in 1947 whose predecessor administration was already officially called the Government of India. You're comparing a continent with an actual successor state while pretending political nomenclature doesn't matter.

The names are irrelevant to my specific analogy. Let's use a real analogue, the Eternal Reich, or the "Greater Germanic Reich" as hitler explicitly wanted occupied Europe to be called. Did that work out well for all parties concerned, even though they had religious and significant cultural and racial congruence? Indeed, Europe was and is significantly MORE homogenous than India.

Hitler is irrelevant to the naming question. Calling Gandhara or Magadha parts of Ancient India does not mean Delhi had a sovereign right to conquer them. Historical geography is not entitlement to imperial rule. What kind of argument is this Reich blah blah blah. Where did I say we should unify India?

I keep reminding you - we are referring to the naming of South Asian political entities. Did locals establish the name "India" or was it an exonym?
Who gave the Greeks their name "Hellas"? In case you haven't figured it out, it was the Hellenes themselves! Spartans and Athenians BOTH arose directly from hellenic tribes and shared identical genomic ancestry (afaik).

For the nth time India is an exonym in its Greek form. Its ultimate source, however, is the indigenous Sindhu. Nobody disputes either fact. An exonym being foreign does not make the geography it eventually denotes illegitimate.
And great example bringing hellas, here hellas itself expanded from a more restricted designation into a collective Greek one. Thucydides explicitly describes the name hellenes as gradually spreading among communities rather than existing eternally with its later scope. Your Greek example therefore demonstrates that geographical ethnic names can expand.

Ancient Greek identity was not established by genomic testing. Scholarship treats Greek identity as historically constructed through language, religion, genealogy, sanctuaries and other collective institutions. Political and local identities remained extremely strong.

With that in mind, do remind us if gangetics were genetically the same as indus inhabitants (BEFORE the collapse of the IVC, the flight of Harappans eastward, and the arrival of Steppelanders...events that homogenised north Indian and ancient Pakistani profiles to a degree).

And with that in mind, Modern Indian subcon populations themselves derive in varying proportions from overlapping IVC related, AASI and Steppe related ancestries. Genetics shows mixtures and clines what it does not show is a biological wall conveniently matching your proposed "ancient Pakistan" and India frontier.

Also, this migration point you made makes your argument stranger. You're acknowledging major prehistoric population movement and mixture across the very northwest gangetic geography you simultaneously describe as a hard civilisational divide.

Essentially, you're comparing an alliance of City States that decided for themselves they were all GREEK and had the genetic evidence to support that claim starting from their progenitor status....

Eventually, yes. Thucydides specifically says the collective name Hellenes spread gradually and that Homer did not apply it collectively to all Greeks. Collective identities can develop and expand without every constituent population first holding a referendum.

with a geographical lumping together of rival City States who, at best, could be called Bharat if left to their own devices to come up with a name,

Then you've conceded that an indigenous supra-regional name existed. Whether you personally prefer Bharat to India doesn't demonstrate that the latter geographical term is erroneous.

who moreover do not have the cultural, religious, and genetic basis upon which to "merge" with one another (and consequently were not able to, EXCEPT BY FORCE FROM A THIRD PARTY - Maurya, Aurangzeb, Queen Victoria).

Languages, religions, philosophical traditions, epics, pilgrimage networks, political ideas and populations circulated across the subcontinent for millennia. Political diversity doesn't erase those connections. However we don't have a cultural identity to now merge with the two modern political entities created in 1947 neither should we.

Who said it was anything other than a temporal descriptor? You're right that "vedic" is a meaningless qualifier for "brahmi" in a linguistic sense, but brahmi script arose in the era after the vedics had arrived from the Eurasian Steppeland,

Huh? Then withdraw it as evidence of a hard cultural boundary, because a temporal label tells us precisely nothing about whether Hindush and Magadha constituted separate civilisations.
Small correction though, vedic era is hundreds of years after the arrival of steppe nomads. The steppe nomads are not vedic.

which is all that was meant by this qualifier in the above context, distinguishing it temporally from indus script, which was clearly "pre-vedic".

No. You claimed the absence of one proved cultural discontinuity. The ASI itself says that between Indus writing and the ashokan inscriptions the writing situation is unknown, while literary references suggest writing and pre ahokan knowledge of brahmi remains possible. 'Unknown' is not evidence for your claimed hard boundary

I don't need to prove a negative. You prove to me there was a native script in the Indus Valley before the Mauryan empire controlled it (which was the first point of imperial contiguity between the old Achaemenid satrapies, then ruled by Seleucids after the Achaemenids fell) and the regions to the east that was ANYTHING SIMILAR to Brahmi. It may interest you to know that Brahmi script was read left to right, whereas IVC script was read right to left - they're already substantially different. Being a fan of Ashoka's magnanimous learnings, I expected you of all people to know this much. The point being made is that Magadhan script was Brahmi, which has no conceivable roots in IVC script.

Yes. And? Different scripts do not establish different civilisations. Ashoka's own empire used Brahmi in much of the subcontinent and right to left Kharosthi in the northwest.

Nobody needs Brahmi to descend from Indus script for cultural continuity to exist. Britain changed from runes to latin script without becoming a different civilisation every time its writing system changed.

Stolen from whom?? Were you paying attention to the thread and our discussion...stolen from Pakistan of course!

I chuckle everytime I read that. The name India was being used for more than two millennia before Pakistan existed. Pakistan cannot retrospectively own a name that predates the Pakistani state by millennia.

And yes, it is a theft of intellectual property that leads to genuine economic harm. Once definitions are established accurately, everything associated with coterminous Pakistan historically is NOT associated with the Secular Republic of India, BY DEFINITION. The problem is obvious. Call it "saltiness" if that helps you cope but that top tier whinging won't stop the truth from being written. I understand you fear this because of all the stolen property your Secular Republic stands to lose as a result!

Ancient geographical history is not Pakistans intellectual property. Harappa, Gandhara, Vedic traditions, Buddhism, the Mauryas etc. are historical subjects, not copyrighted national assets allocated by the Radcliffe Award.

India was a name given by foreigners to coterminous Pakistan, then erroneously extrapolated to incorporate eastern territories. Those eastern territories than had the nerve to retroactively "claim" Pakistan and its heritage!

No such historical “definition” exists. Modern borders don't retroactively sever ancient historical geography. Takshashila can simultaneously belong to the ancient history of the Indian subcontinent and to the national heritage of modern Pakistan.

It is a case of civilisational PARASITISM and we shall treat it aggressively.

Too little too late. I have said before. This sudden interest in "Ancient Pakistan" is a healthy one if it can preserve some artefacts from your own populace who is more interested in defacing things.

Missed this one...

Look we don't care what you call your primordial milieu of a nation state as long as it doesn't impinge on our rightful legacy and heritage. It's that simple.

You evidently care enormously because your argument requires India to rename itself so that Pakistan can claim exclusive possession of particular strands of pre 1947 history. Pakistan is a state for 70+ years, just like India. If you want you can rename yourself as "original India" for all I care because there is nothing stopping you from doing it.

Greece fought for decades against FYROM for EXACTLY THIS REASON. There is precedence over the importance of this matter. I'm not just fahrting in a wind tunnel for laughs here.

The Macedonia dispute proves that modern states can dispute names and heritage it does not establish that modern states obtain exclusive ownership of all antiquity occurring inside their current borders. The eventual settlement was a negotiated modern political agreement, not a universal law of historical nomenclature.

Go with Bharat. Or Gangadesh as has been suggested. How about Marathastan (please credit me appropriately if you go with this one)?

And this rather gives the game away. You've moved from historical analysis to telling another sovereign country what name would make your preferred Pakistani national narrative more comfortable.
India chose India, constitutionally also Bharat. Pakistan chose Pakistan. Neither side gets to rewrite antiquity merely because the other's name is politically inconvenient.

 

[Master Chief]

Big deal. Later it did and you can't freeze it neither can it is violating any rules or laws. But then again where is the proof that both had different cultures?

Plenty of proof the Indus was not aligned with the lands to the east. Where would you like to sample evidence from?

1. Genetically AND linguistically AND religiously not the same at the time of the Harappans.

2. Culturally rivals at the time of Alexander (nobody came to help Porus when Alexander arrived yet the Nandas could easily have turned the odds against Alexander had they aligned with Porus).

3. Linguistically different at the time of the Achaemenids.

We can highlight differences in religion, genetic composition, and culture once again during the medieval era but I'm sure you are familiar with those.

YOU ARE FORCING TOGETHER DISPARATE AND SUBSTANTIVELY DISTINCT PEOPLES TO RETROFIT THE POLITICAL CONCEPT OF "INDIA" ONTO A GEOGRAPHIC DESCRIPTOR.

Nobody gives a shit about if it was unified seperated by political boundaries. If it did then historical accounts would have used different names for each political entity.

I just explained to you above why I do give a shit. You have overlaid the political concept of "India" (bharata as per your scriptures) onto a geographic descriptor.

So what? My argument has never required continuous political unity. Political fragmentation does not invalidate a geographical or civilisational category.

Your argument is simply your subjective opinion. I have presented DIFFERENCES between the very nature of these tribes, their composition, their behaviour, their beliefs, their writing, their technology, their influences....all over many different eras of history. I have pointed out their "unification" is based on a geographic descriptor for a continent, imposed by foreigners. Who squatting in Persepolis or London or even on secondment to Pataliputra bequeathed the name "India" to your people, as anything other than a convenient descriptor for "you brown lot"? You neglect this reality. India is not different to Europe or Africa in this context. When Europeans arrived in Africa, they saw varying shades of black and jungles as far as the eye could see - this is why they gave it one descriptor and retained that descriptor for what lay beyond and yet undiscovered! That "Bharata" is mentioned in scriptures is of no consequence because it was a simple mythology of a supposedly unified land mass that was never realised! It doesn't mean it existed or that all these tribes in South Asia were somehow unified. I hope you AT LEAST understand that the Emperor Bharata is a mythological being.

Except Europe never became a sovereign state called Europe in 1947 whose predecessor administration was already officially called the Government of India. You're comparing a continent with an actual successor state while pretending political nomenclature doesn't matter.

Hitler is irrelevant to the naming question. Calling Gandhara or Magadha parts of Ancient India does not mean Delhi had a sovereign right to conquer them. Historical geography is not entitlement to imperial rule. What kind of argument is this Reich blah blah blah. Where did I say we should unify India?

Europe was occupied by Nazis and Hitler wanted to give it a single unifying name "Greater Germanic Reich". When he failed to achieve this, the independent nations became independent individual nations again.

Your post here actually demonstrates an agreement with me that barring forcible conquest of South Asia (by the British in this case and others before them), there is no unified polity present. Don't show me the map in 1947. Show me the map just before the East India Company fired their first shot (hint: there ain't no unified "India" but lots of little polities within a CONTINENTAL LAND MASS CALLED "INDIA").

For the nth time India is an exonym in its Greek form. Its ultimate source, however, is the indigenous Sindhu. Nobody disputes either fact. An exonym being foreign does not make the geography it eventually denotes illegitimate.
And great example bringing hellas, here hellas itself expanded from a more restricted designation into a collective Greek one. Thucydides explicitly describes the name hellenes as gradually spreading among communities rather than existing eternally with its later scope. Your Greek example therefore demonstrates that geographical ethnic names can expand.

Ancient Greek identity was not established by genomic testing. Scholarship treats Greek identity as historically constructed through language, religion, genealogy, sanctuaries and other collective institutions. Political and local identities remained extremely strong.

Ermm.. it's not the exonymity itself that renders "India" illegitimate - it's the fact that you have misinterpreted and misrepresented that exonym. Don't put words into my mouth. Exonymity is not a crime and is nothing to be ashamed of for any nation. Stealing another nation's legacy by the false utility of a name (WHETHER EXONYM OR ENDONYM) is the issue here.

And yes, I know Hellenes "expanded" from their original origin point. Of course they did. Duhh. My point is that your "India" did not arise from the real "India". The legacy of the IVC was usurped. You seem to repeatedly claim I am making arguments that I have not made. We all know what this practice is called and why it is deployed.

And with that in mind, Modern Indian subcon populations themselves derive in varying proportions from overlapping IVC related, AASI and Steppe related ancestries. Genetics shows mixtures and clines what it does not show is a biological wall conveniently matching your proposed "ancient Pakistan" and India frontier.

Also, this migration point you made makes your argument stranger. You're acknowledging major prehistoric population movement and mixture across the very northwest gangetic geography you simultaneously describe as a hard civilisational divide.

Remind yourself of the history. There was a biological, religious, linguistic, and ethnic wall when the IVC existed. The IVC then collapsed. Genomes then naturally diffused outwards to what we see today. So whether you like it or not, the Harappan genome was NOT shared by gangetics originally. I have already said clearly that genetics, linguistics, culture, religion, all contributed to the differences between our peoples, each to varying degrees in different eras of human history. Shared MODERN genomes across modern Pakistan and modern North India are STILL not inclusive of vast swathes of the Secular Republic's territory (the whole south!) even to this day. The ORIGINAL genomes were categorcially different (you need to re-read the works of Reich if you still haven't figured this much out)...

PRE-HARAPPAN MATURE PHASE IVC:
-- AASI: 15-35%. IRANIAN RELATED: 65-85%.

PRE-HARAPPAN MATURE PHASE GANGETICS:
-- AASI: 50-70%. IRANIAN RELATED: MINIMAL TO NO INITIAL PRESENCE.

The diffusion of Iranian genomes and mixing of Iranian DNA EASTWARDS across the Gangetic region occurred AFTER THE IVC FELL.

Want me to say it over and over?

Then you've conceded that an indigenous supra-regional name existed. Whether you personally prefer Bharat to India doesn't demonstrate that the latter geographical term is erroneous.

Conceded not 1 inch mate. The latter geographical term is not of itself erroneous (why shouldn't westerners, or indeed anyone, refer to areas of the world in simplified terms for their own practical purposes?) but you deploying it for any political entity east of the Indus categorically IS ERRONEOUS. Using the term "Bharat" is not erroneous in this context. You will have to work harder to pick holes in my argument. Take a couple of days off work if needed. This stuff is more important than selling antivirus software bundles.

No. You claimed the absence of one proved cultural discontinuity. The ASI itself says that between Indus writing and the ashokan inscriptions the writing situation is unknown, while literary references suggest writing and pre ahokan knowledge of brahmi remains possible. 'Unknown' is not evidence for your claimed hard boundary

Yep. Unknown. So you can't use an "unknown" or a void in knowledge to prove continuity. Therefore the default stands, that no continuity existed until proven otherwise. We prove the continuity of all historical empires and nations with hard evidence, not by way of a gap in evidence.

Huh? Then withdraw it as evidence of a hard cultural boundary, because a temporal label tells us precisely nothing about whether Hindush and Magadha constituted separate civilisations.
Small correction though, vedic era is hundreds of years after the arrival of steppe nomads. The steppe nomads are not vedic.

Nothing to withdraw here since I have pointed out that there is no known script for the period in question, while Magadha had a known script. I don't see the problem. You can't use the absence of something to prove something existed in continuity with something else.

Yes. And? Different scripts do not establish different civilisations. Ashoka's own empire used Brahmi in much of the subcontinent and right to left Kharosthi in the northwest.

Nobody needs Brahmi to descend from Indus script for cultural continuity to exist. Britain changed from runes to latin script without becoming a different civilisation every time its writing system changed.

Difference in scripts does very much create a rationale for the existence of two different political entities. In the context of multiple other layers of identity variance between the peoples in question, there is ample evidence of independence of these regions except when forced together under the imperial yoke.

The name India was being used for more than two millennia before Pakistan existed. Pakistan cannot retrospectively own a name that predates the Pakistani state by millennia.

"INDIA" was used in only 1 known context: As a geographical descriptor by westerners. Just like "Africa". Pakistan can very much own this name, just as any modern nation state lays exclusive claim to its progenitor civilisation. Can FYROM claim to call itself "Macedonia"?

Ancient geographical history is not Pakistans intellectual property. Harappa, Gandhara, Vedic traditions, Buddhism, the Mauryas etc. are historical subjects, not copyrighted national assets allocated by the Radcliffe Award.

Of course you may study the history of Pakistan. You can even worship it if you see fit or imitate it (giving due and explicit reference in the process) but you cannot simply usurp it and claim it as your own (and worse still, deny Pakistan's right over it).

The rest of your posts have already been answered by my responses above. Happy reading!

 

[nahtanbob]

You're recycling the same old argument. Not sure why Germania is cited as an example of disparate cultures forming a single polity, as the features of this supposed analogue are quite different from what we see in South Asia.

Germania was the Latin name for Deutschland. Deutschland was the endonym for the Rhineland germanic peoples who resisted Roman rule together (no foreign power imposed the name upon them). The Roman advance politically unified these once warring peoples. Beyond that, they shared languages, DNA, and cultures. This is already substantially different to the South Asian experience. You can take any period in history you like, IVC, Alexander, Maurya, Mughals, British - the traits shared between germanic peoples (DNA, linguistics, culture, religion, even endonymy) did not (to varying degrees) align for South Asian peoples.

Even having said all that, Germanic peoples NEVER actually unified entirely. Hitler didn't even manage it. Anglo-Saxons are a germanic people and they spread far and wide, so how on earth is it even possible for them to unify into a single nation state?

Here's what "India" looked like when white colonisers decided to take over. You're sitting here telling me this was some "unified" front against "non-natives"? (See below)

You can go further back.

Did the Nandas suggest a united defence with Porus against Alexander's advance, or were the Nandas and Porus actually rivals, so much so that Porus was left to his fate despite being supposedly "native barhadari"?

At NO SIGNIFICANT POINT in known history (Harappan era, post-Harappan era, Mauryan era, Mughal era, British colonial era..) can the claim be justifiably and evidently made that the tribes of the Indus and the tribes of the Ganga (+southies) were EVER a united political entity. On the contrary, they rivalled each other (as did MANY other groups within south Asia) and even REPEATEDLY AND CONSISTENTLY plotted each other's downfall with help from Europeans!

Shall we discuss the Marathas and their "unified defence of mother India" next?? Tipu might want to join the chat.

View attachment 213511

Incorrect map - British were real rulers of Bengal and Carnatic

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Plenty of proof the Indus was not aligned with the lands to the east. Where would you like to sample evidence from?

1. Genetically AND linguistically AND religiously not the same at the time of the Harappans.

I think I have said it before somewhere else, that if you so wish to seperate, you must start arguing for seperate civilization and artefacts found in Pakistan side and Indian side. Rakhigarhi, Dholavira, Kalibangan and other sites in modern India would then be “our” civilizational remains, while Harappa and Mohenjo daro would be yours. But you object to that as well.

2. Culturally rivals at the time of Alexander (nobody came to help Porus when Alexander arrived yet the Nandas could easily have turned the odds against Alexander had they aligned with Porus).

Why would Nandas fight some frontier wars which clearly Alexander didn't win decisively. Nandas were not stupid. But why not speak about the Taxilan Ambhi who betrayed king Puru, sided with Alexander? Not helping is one thing, betraying and siding with the enemy? So Prus and Ambhi must be different civilization.

3. Linguistically different at the time of the Achaemenids.

We can highlight differences in religion, genetic composition, and culture once again during the medieval era but I'm sure you are familiar with those.

On one hand you say their script wasn't deciphered on the other, you confidently assert that the Harappans were linguistically different from the populations to their east. How exactly have you established that? We don't know what language or languages the Harappans spoke. In fact, there isn't even universal agreement that the Indus signs encode language in the manner of a conventional writing system. So what evidence allows you to turn an unknown Harappan language into evidence for a linguistic boundary?

YOU ARE FORCING TOGETHER DISPARATE AND SUBSTANTIVELY DISTINCT PEOPLES TO RETROFIT THE POLITICAL CONCEPT OF "INDIA" ONTO A GEOGRAPHIC DESCRIPTOR.

Different kingdoms, dialects, traditions and material cultures are exactly what we expect across a region this enormous. Your burden is not to demonstrate differences, nobody disputes those. Your burden is to demonstrate that those differences created the hard civilizational boundary you keep asserting at the Indus. That's a very different proposition.

I just explained to you above why I do give a shit. You have overlaid the political concept of "India" (bharata as per your scriptures) onto a geographic descriptor.

No, repeating again India is an exonym. Like Archemenids gave an exonym expanded by Greeks. In my eyes both Archemendis and Greeks are at an equal footing.
You tried to freeze Archemenids in time and made a quantum jump to 1947.

Your argument is simply your subjective opinion. I have presented DIFFERENCES between the very nature of these tribes, their composition, their behaviour, their beliefs, their writing, their technology, their influences....all over many different eras of history. I have pointed out their "unification" is based on a geographic descriptor for a continent, imposed by foreigners. Who squatting in Persepolis or London or even on secondment to Pataliputra bequeathed the name "India" to your people, as anything other than a convenient descriptor for "you brown lot"? You neglect this reality. India is not different to Europe or Africa in this context. When Europeans arrived in Africa, they saw varying shades of black and jungles as far as the eye could see - this is why they gave it one descriptor and retained that descriptor for what lay beyond and yet undiscovered! That "Bharata" is mentioned in scriptures is of no consequence because it was a simple mythology of a supposedly unified land mass that was never realised! It doesn't mean it existed or that all these tribes in South Asia were somehow unified. I hope you AT LEAST understand that the Emperor Bharata is a mythological being.

Your evidences to the same are unknowable. Indus script is undeciphered and then assert confidently that Harappans were linguistically different.
Then you go on to confuse geographical and cultural imagination with political sovereignity. Bharata mentioned in Scriptures is of great consequence because most of the recorded history beyond IVC is in the scriptures. But they weren't talking about unification rather battles in which Bharata became victorious.

Besides that geographical names routinely derived from legendary, tribal and dynastic traditions.

Europe was occupied by Nazis and Hitler wanted to give it a single unifying name "Greater Germanic Reich". When he failed to achieve this, the independent nations became independent individual nations again.

Europe existed before Hitler, during Hitler and after Hitler regardless of whether one empire controleld it. Hitlers failure did not invalidate "Europe". Political fragmentarion does not demonstrate Indian subcon was meaningless or the name "India".

Your post here actually demonstrates an agreement with me that barring forcible conquest of South Asia (by the British in this case and others before them), there is no unified polity present. Don't show me the map in 1947. Show me the map just before the East India Company fired their first shot (hint: there ain't no unified "India" but lots of little polities within a CONTINENTAL LAND MASS CALLED "INDIA").

Congratulations on figuring out political fragmentation and proving that political fragmentation is just political nothing more. It does not prove absence of a larger geographical identity called India. You keep answering this nation state question I'm not asking.

Ermm.. it's not the exonymity itself that renders "India" illegitimate - it's the fact that you have misinterpreted and misrepresented that exonym. Don't put words into my mouth. Exonymity is not a crime and is nothing to be ashamed of for any nation. Stealing another nation's legacy by the false utility of a name (WHETHER EXONYM OR ENDONYM) is the issue here.

I haven't, Archemenids did. Should've called the land Bharat, but that exonym stuck and here we are. You can't steal something given to you in 400BCE.

And yes, I know Hellenes "expanded" from their original origin point. Of course they did. Duhh. My point is that your "India" did not arise from the real "India". The legacy of the IVC was usurped. You seem to repeatedly claim I am making arguments that I have not made. We all know what this practice is called and why it is deployed.

Going by your argument real India in itself is misclassification. Naming a region based off rig vedic rivers.
You can't simply bring one group and rules for your convenience then argue that the next group is wrong when both are equally responsible for this.

Remind yourself of the history. There was a biological, religious, linguistic, and ethnic wall when the IVC existed. The IVC then collapsed. Genomes then naturally diffused outwards to what we see today. So whether you like it or not, the Harappan genome was NOT shared by gangetics originally. I have already said clearly that genetics, linguistics, culture, religion, all contributed to the differences between our peoples, each to varying degrees in different eras of human history. Shared MODERN genomes across modern Pakistan and modern North India are STILL not inclusive of vast swathes of the Secular Republic's territory (the whole south!) even to this day. The ORIGINAL genomes were categorcially different (you need to re-read the works of Reich if you still haven't figured this much out)...

To prove that "wall" you need DNA evidence from your side. and we have all the time in the world. Let's wait for DNA evidence from your sides.

Narasimhan et al found a Cline rather than one homogeneous Harappan genotype and show that populations related to it later contributed massively to both ANI and ASI. Now find me Gangetic samples from before mature Harappan period from which you derive this 50-70% AASI.

PRE-HARAPPAN MATURE PHASE IVC:
-- AASI: 15-35%. IRANIAN RELATED: 65-85%.

PRE-HARAPPAN MATURE PHASE GANGETICS:
-- AASI: 50-70%. IRANIAN RELATED: MINIMAL TO NO INITIAL PRESENCE.

The diffusion of Iranian genomes and mixing of Iranian DNA EASTWARDS across the Gangetic region occurred AFTER THE IVC FELL.

Want me to say it over and over?

Biology wizard with interest in genomic studies, writes like that?
Narasimhan et al. doesn't give a clean "65-85% Iranian 15-35% AASI" figure for "the IVC." The published range for the Indus Periphery Cline is much wider and differently centered roughly 45 to 82% Iranian related and 11 to 50% AASI ancestry, and the single high coverage genome in Rakhigarhi, I6113 modeled at about 73% +/- 6% Iranian related ancestry with the rest AASI (or East Asian related, depending on the model).

Second part is the most hilarious in here. The "AASI 50-70% gangetic saar", is from Iran Ganj Dareh, Indus Periphery BMAC outlier sites and post IVC Swat valey samples about a millennium later in the post IVC Swat valley. There is no post IVC gangetic DNA samples. The only ones we found in India are from Ghaggar-Hakra saraswati paleochannel in Rakhigarhi. And we all know that results.

The problem is we can't defenitely figure out who's who based on DNA of a very few individuals and draw x% this y% that, the more you try to, the funnier it becomes. The numbers are very few in fact we have more neanderthal DNA studies than we can do on Sindhu Saraswati sites.

Conceded not 1 inch mate. The latter geographical term is not of itself erroneous (why shouldn't westerners, or indeed anyone, refer to areas of the world in simplified terms for their own practical purposes?) but you deploying it for any political entity east of the Indus categorically IS ERRONEOUS. Using the term "Bharat" is not erroneous in this context. You will have to work harder to pick holes in my argument. Take a couple of days off work if needed. This stuff is more important than selling antivirus software bundles.

It was rather quite easy to pick holes in your argument. You seem to be projecting, when talking about taking days off. That stressful huh?

Yep. Unknown. So you can't use an "unknown" or a void in knowledge to prove continuity. Therefore the default stands, that no continuity existed until proven otherwise. We prove the continuity of all historical empires and nations with hard evidence, not by way of a gap in evidence.

“Unknown” does not mean “different until proven otherwise.” It means unknown and this isn't some trivial technicality. The language encoded by the Indus signs if they encode speech at all remains unknown, with competing Dravidian, Indo Aryan, Para Munda and other hypotheses. There is even continuing disagreement over whether the signs constitute linguistic writing in the conventional sense.
Nobody needs to demonstrate that Harappa and Magadha were one political or linguistic entity in 2500 BCE for the later geographical concept of India to exist.

Nothing to withdraw here since I have pointed out that there is no known script for the period in question, while Magadha had a known script. I don't see the problem. You can't use the absence of something to prove something existed in continuity with something else.

Are you always this confused?
There are no surviving inscriptions from Achaemenid period "Magadha" either. So what exactly are you comparing?
If you are comparing Magadhi Prakrit then there is Gandhari Prakrit to compare to, if you're comparing Brahmi then there is Kharoshti (yes written right to left) in Gandhara to compare to. Do you really want to compare scripts and languages to prove civilizational divide? You wouldn't like the result.

Difference in scripts does very much create a rationale for the existence of two different political entities. In the context of multiple other layers of identity variance between the peoples in question, there is ample evidence of independence of these regions except when forced together under the imperial yoke.

More interpretations than hard facts on civilizational divide. You sneak in this argument "therefore they could never belong to a larger geographical/civilizational category later called India." Which is a nice try but that's just your rhetorical argument.

"INDIA" was used in only 1 known context: As a geographical descriptor by westerners. Just like "Africa". Pakistan can very much own this name, just as any modern nation state lays exclusive claim to its progenitor civilisation. Can FYROM claim to call itself "Macedonia"?

Africa was geographically called Africa despite containing Egyptians, Berbers, Nubians, Ethiopians, Bantu speaking peoples and thousands of independent political societies.
Nobody asks "Show me the African emperor who politically unified the continent, otherwise Africa wasn't real"

If you apply this logic, how can IVC be called IVC? Larger and older sites of IVC exist outside Pakistan yet IVC itself is called Indus Valley based on British given nomenclature.

You cannot simultaneously argue that the IVC constitutes Pakistan's exclusive “progenitor civilization” and then discover that major pieces of your supposedly exclusive progenitor civilization are physically sitting across the international border in India.

Of course you may study the history of Pakistan. You can even worship it if you see fit or imitate it (giving due and explicit reference in the process) but you cannot simply usurp it and claim it as your own (and worse still, deny Pakistan's right over it).

The rest of your posts have already been answered by my responses above. Happy reading!

Nobody is claiming the history of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan as Indian history.

 

[RealNapster]

Question:

Who Created Harappan / Indus Valley Civilisation? | How Did It End? | Samvaad With Devdutt Pattanaik

Answer :

Modi Ji.

 

[Master Chief]

I think I have said it before somewhere else, that if you so wish to seperate, you must start arguing for seperate civilization and artefacts found in Pakistan side and Indian side.

You can hold them by all means but we will demand them back and we will remain the progenitor nation state. Elgin's Marbles.

Why would Nandas fight some frontier wars which clearly Alexander didn't win decisively. Nandas were not stupid. But why not speak about the Taxilan Ambhi who betrayed king Puru, sided with Alexander? Not helping is one thing, betraying and siding with the enemy? So Prus and Ambhi must be different civilization.

Which proves MY case for there being no "cultural dharmic alignment of brothers saar!" between IVC and that which lay to the east. Thank you.

Biology wizard with interest in genomic studies, writes like that?
Narasimhan et al. doesn't give a clean "65-85% Iranian 15-35% AASI" figure for "the IVC." The published range for the Indus Periphery Cline is much wider and differently centered roughly 45 to 82% Iranian related and 11 to 50% AASI ancestry, and the single high coverage genome in Rakhigarhi, I6113 modeled at about 73% +/- 6% Iranian related ancestry with the rest AASI (or East Asian related, depending on the model).

Second part is the most hilarious in here. The "AASI 50-70% gangetic saar", is from Iran Ganj Dareh, Indus Periphery BMAC outlier sites and post IVC Swat valey samples about a millennium later in the post IVC Swat valley. There is no post IVC gangetic DNA samples. The only ones we found in India are from Ghaggar-Hakra saraswati paleochannel in Rakhigarhi. And we all know that results.

The problem is we can't defenitely figure out who's who based on DNA of a very few individuals and draw x% this y% that, the more you try to, the funnier it becomes. The numbers are very few in fact we have more neanderthal DNA studies than we can do on Sindhu Saraswati sites.

OK jeetistani, we can go to town on this as clearly you have no clue what the data shows.

Narisimhan (2019):

"We document a distinctive ancestry profile—~45 to 82% Iranian farmer–related and ~11 to 50% AASI (with negligible Anatolian farmer–related admixture)—present at two sites in cultural contact with the Indus Valley Culture (IVC)"

---> "IN CULTURAL CONTACT". Right next door.

He goes on to expand on his model of three distinct sources for South Asian ancestry...

"Three ancestry clines that succeeded each other in time in South Asia. We identify a distinctive trio of source populations that fits geographically and temporally diverse South Asians since the Bronze Age: a mixture of AASI, an Indus Periphery Cline group with predominantly Iranian farmer–related ancestry, and Central_Steppe_MLBA. Two-way clines that are well modeled as mixtures of pairs of populations that are themselves formed of these three sources succeeded each other in time: before 2000 BCE, the Indus Periphery Cline had no detectable Steppe ancestry, beginning after 2000 BCE the Steppe Cline, and finally the Modern Indian Cline."

"The ASI and ANI arose as Indus Periphery Cline people mixed with groups to the north and east".

Whom do we think these "groups to the east" might be?

Yes you can bring up Swat (the LATE TRANSECT data specifically) as an outlier for AASI proportionality all you like, but it is precisely that - an outlier.

"ASI were not fully formed at the time of the IVC and instead must have continued to form through mixture after its decline as material culture typical of the IVC spread eastward (53) and Indus Periphery Cline ancestry mixed with people of less West Eurasian relatedness."

---> LESS WEST EURASIAN RELATEDNESS.



As for AASI, man I can't help you if you're going to deny this simple reality of gangetic constitution:

"Our results thus show that the majority of the ancestry of present-day Indians derives from a major migration event out of Africa that occurred 50,000 years ago."

50,000 years of Evolutionary History of India: Insights from ~2,700 Whole Genome Sequences - PMC

India has been underrepresented in whole genome sequencing studies. We generated 2,762 high coverage genomes from India—including individuals from most geographic regions, speakers of all major languages, and tribal and caste groups—providing a ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If you are actually going to squat here and claim that pre-IVC gangetic populations were somehow not AASI predominant, then nobody can help you any further.

We can talk about the Narisimhan (2019) study at length of you wish.

This is directly from the paper, not the AI gobbledegook that you try to pass off as instructive, regarding ANI and ASI popoulations:

"By sequencing 523 ancient humans, we show that the primary source of ancestry in modern South Asians is a prehistoric genetic gradient between people related to early hunter-gatherers of Iran and Southeast Asia. After the Indus Valley Civilization’s decline, its people mixed with individuals in the southeast to form one of the two main ancestral populations of South Asia, whose direct descendants live in southern India. Simultaneously, they mixed with descendants of Steppe pastoralists who, starting around 4000 years ago, spread via Central Asia to form the other main ancestral population. The Steppe ancestry in South Asia has the same profile as that in Bronze Age Eastern Europe, tracking a movement of people that affected both regions and that likely spread the distinctive features shared between Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic languages"

50,000 years of Evolutionary History of India: Insights from ~2,700 Whole Genome Sequences - PMC

India has been underrepresented in whole genome sequencing studies. We generated 2,762 high coverage genomes from India—including individuals from most geographic regions, speakers of all major languages, and tribal and caste groups—providing a ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707605412

No, repeating again India is an exonym. Like Archemenids gave an exonym expanded by Greeks. In my eyes both Archemendis and Greeks are at an equal footing.
You tried to freeze Archemenids in time and made a quantum jump to 1947.

So you're now basing your opinion on....your opinion? Thanks for this contribution.

Your evidences to the same are unknowable. Indus script is undeciphered and then assert confidently that Harappans were linguistically different.
Then you go on to confuse geographical and cultural imagination with political sovereignity. Bharata mentioned in Scriptures is of great consequence because most of the recorded history beyond IVC is in the scriptures. But they weren't talking about unification rather battles in which Bharata became victorious.

Erm...I am simply stating the OBVIOUS - you cannot use a VOID, THE ABSENCE OF INFORMATION to prove your inference. This is fallacious. And then you show your true saffron colours by declaring scriptures to be "recorded history". If you're going to be disingenuous and resort to scriptures as independently verified historical fact, then what's even the point of discussing with me?

Europe existed before Hitler, during Hitler and after Hitler regardless of whether one empire controleld it. Hitlers failure did not invalidate "Europe". Political fragmentarion does not demonstrate Indian subcon was meaningless or the name "India".

Yes. Europe did and does and will exist AS A CONTINENT, NOT A SINGLE COUNTRY. Hint: same applies for the land mass you squat on today.

It was rather quite easy to pick holes in your argument. You seem to be projecting, when talking about taking days off. That stressful huh?

Always a pleasure, never a chore!

“Unknown” does not mean “different until proven otherwise.” It means unknown and this isn't some trivial technicality

Yes, "unknown" means no evidence exists, therefore a null hypothesis applies.

The null hypothesis is that different groups had different scripts, PARTICULARLY so when the known and undeciphered progenitor script in the region of the IVC is clearly NOT the same as the known and deciphered script further east. It's pretty obvious really.

Nobody needs to demonstrate that Harappa and Magadha were one political or linguistic entity in 2500 BCE for the later geographical concept of India to exist.

We have demonstrated without doubt that they cannot be proved to be the same entity. Therefore, what right does Magadha (et al) have to absorb Harappa into its future nationhood plans?

Are you always this confused?
There are no surviving inscriptions from Achaemenid period "Magadha" either. So what exactly are you comparing?
If you are comparing Magadhi Prakrit then there is Gandhari Prakrit to compare to, if you're comparing Brahmi then there is Kharoshti (yes written right to left) in Gandhara to compare to. Do you really want to compare scripts and languages to prove civilizational divide? You wouldn't like the result.

You cite whatever you wish to cite. Nobody has stopped you from embarking on whatever tangent you see fit to embark upon.

Can you demonstrate linguistic contiguity between Magadha and Harappa before the post-IVC era?

You've mentioned Kharosthi as another one of your "outlier proves a rule saar!" type flexes. Yes, used in a POCKET of the IVC due to trade connections with eastern realms. Nothing unusual about that and it remains an outlier, an exception (right to left) that proves the rule of Brahmi script. Btw, Kharosthi is related but is not strictly a brahmi script. So what exactly is your point? In fact... it Is probably derived from Persian script, later borrowed by Ashoka to help write his confessional monologues.

Africa was geographically called Africa despite containing Egyptians, Berbers, Nubians, Ethiopians, Bantu speaking peoples and thousands of independent political societies.
Nobody asks "Show me the African emperor who politically unified the continent, otherwise Africa wasn't real"

Yes, and Africa is a continent, like India is. Nobody said it should be unified in order to be declared a "real construct". Of course Africa is real - as a continent. You are putting words into my mouth. I am saying: to create a NATION STATE CALLED "AFRICA" then all tribes of that continent need to be demonstrably unified in a political sense, not including forced union by a third party.

 

[Musings]

You can hold them by all means but we will demand them back and we will remain the progenitor nation state. Elgin's Marbles.


Which proves MY case for there being no "cultural dharmic alignment of brothers saar!" between IVC and that which lay to the east. Thank you.



OK jeetistani, we can go to town on this as clearly you have no clue what the data shows.

Narisimhan (2019):

"We document a distinctive ancestry profile—~45 to 82% Iranian farmer–related and ~11 to 50% AASI (with negligible Anatolian farmer–related admixture)—present at two sites in cultural contact with the Indus Valley Culture (IVC)"

---> "IN CULTURAL CONTACT". Right next door.

He goes on to expand on his model of three distinct sources for South Asian ancestry...

"Three ancestry clines that succeeded each other in time in South Asia. We identify a distinctive trio of source populations that fits geographically and temporally diverse South Asians since the Bronze Age: a mixture of AASI, an Indus Periphery Cline group with predominantly Iranian farmer–related ancestry, and Central_Steppe_MLBA. Two-way clines that are well modeled as mixtures of pairs of populations that are themselves formed of these three sources succeeded each other in time: before 2000 BCE, the Indus Periphery Cline had no detectable Steppe ancestry, beginning after 2000 BCE the Steppe Cline, and finally the Modern Indian Cline."

"The ASI and ANI arose as Indus Periphery Cline people mixed with groups to the north and east".

Whom do we think these "groups to the east" might be?

Yes you can bring up Swat (the LATE TRANSECT data specifically) as an outlier for AASI proportionality all you like, but it is precisely that - an outlier.

"ASI were not fully formed at the time of the IVC and instead must have continued to form through mixture after its decline as material culture typical of the IVC spread eastward (53) and Indus Periphery Cline ancestry mixed with people of less West Eurasian relatedness."

---> LESS WEST EURASIAN RELATEDNESS.



As for AASI, man I can't help you if you're going to deny this simple reality of gangetic constitution:

"Our results thus show that the majority of the ancestry of present-day Indians derives from a major migration event out of Africa that occurred 50,000 years ago."

50,000 years of Evolutionary History of India: Insights from ~2,700 Whole Genome Sequences - PMC

India has been underrepresented in whole genome sequencing studies. We generated 2,762 high coverage genomes from India—including individuals from most geographic regions, speakers of all major languages, and tribal and caste groups—providing a ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If you are actually going to squat here and claim that pre-IVC gangetic populations were somehow not AASI predominant, then nobody can help you any further.

We can talk about the Narisimhan (2019) study at length of you wish.

This is directly from the paper, not the AI gobbledegook that you try to pass off as instructive, regarding ANI and ASI popoulations:

"By sequencing 523 ancient humans, we show that the primary source of ancestry in modern South Asians is a prehistoric genetic gradient between people related to early hunter-gatherers of Iran and Southeast Asia. After the Indus Valley Civilization’s decline, its people mixed with individuals in the southeast to form one of the two main ancestral populations of South Asia, whose direct descendants live in southern India. Simultaneously, they mixed with descendants of Steppe pastoralists who, starting around 4000 years ago, spread via Central Asia to form the other main ancestral population. The Steppe ancestry in South Asia has the same profile as that in Bronze Age Eastern Europe, tracking a movement of people that affected both regions and that likely spread the distinctive features shared between Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic languages"

50,000 years of Evolutionary History of India: Insights from ~2,700 Whole Genome Sequences - PMC

India has been underrepresented in whole genome sequencing studies. We generated 2,762 high coverage genomes from India—including individuals from most geographic regions, speakers of all major languages, and tribal and caste groups—providing a ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707605412

So you're now basing your opinion on....your opinion? Thanks for this contribution.



Erm...I am simply stating the OBVIOUS - you cannot use a VOID, THE ABSENCE OF INFORMATION to prove your inference. This is fallacious. And then you show your true saffron colours by declaring scriptures to be "recorded history". If you're going to be disingenuous and resort to scriptures as independently verified historical fact, then what's even the point of discussing with me?



Yes. Europe did and does and will exist AS A CONTINENT, NOT A SINGLE COUNTRY. Hint: same applies for the land mass you squat on today.



Always a pleasure, never a chore!



Yes, "unknown" means no evidence exists, therefore a null hypothesis applies.

The null hypothesis is that different groups had different scripts, PARTICULARLY so when the known and undeciphered progenitor script in the region of the IVC is clearly NOT the same as the known and deciphered script further east. It's pretty obvious really.



We have demonstrated without doubt that they cannot be proved to be the same entity. Therefore, what right does Magadha (et al) have to absorb Harappa into its future nationhood plans?



You cite whatever you wish to cite. Nobody has stopped you from embarking on whatever tangent you see fit to embark upon.

Can you demonstrate linguistic contiguity between Magadha and Harappa before the post-IVC era?

You've mentioned Kharosthi as another one of your "outlier proves a rule saar!" type flexes. Yes, used in a POCKET of the IVC due to trade connections with eastern realms. Nothing unusual about that and it remains an outlier, an exception (right to left) that proves the rule of Brahmi script. Btw, Kharosthi is related but is not strictly a brahmi script. So what exactly is your point? In fact... it Is probably derived from Persian script, later borrowed by Ashoka to help write his confessional monologues.



Yes, and Africa is a continent, like India is. Nobody said it should be unified in order to be declared a "real construct". Of course Africa is real - as a continent. You are putting words into my mouth. I am saying: to create a NATION STATE CALLED "AFRICA" then all tribes of that continent need to be demonstrably unified in a political sense, not including forced union by a third party.

Cracked it bro..................