Why India persists on Tejas mk 2

[YourDaddy]

I would love to see su-57 and rafael against j-20 or j-16d instead of just Rafael lol. J-16d is just as big as su-57 with modern aesa radar. 8.5 bil for 36 rafael is a bad deal lol. Not as bad as 250 bil for 8 Virginia nuclear submarines from aukus deal by Australia.100 Rafael would cost upward to 23 billion dollars .that's china j-20 annual production btw.

 

[Indos]

What is going to be the cost of a Made in India Rafale? North of USD 200 million each, including the cost for setting up a new assembly line.

Operating costs too are nearly double for twin engine fighters, which the IAF already has in large numbers (Su-30MKI, Rafale, Jaguar, MiG-29).

Tejas Mk2 in the Mirage-2000 weight class offers the range, payload and the right balance of capability versus affordable operating costs.

Besides, many of the systems going on AMCA are being first developed for the Tejas Mk2. They have a high degree of commonality between them.

Well if India want to go this route, it is India own decision.

Ya we know India wants to build every thing, every components, expensive journey, but your country, your own decision.

 

[MirageBlue]

For Indians Stealth is over-rated and Rafale is equivalent to F35. Even Rafale F5 is better than F35. Only Tejas is comparable to Rafale F5 and MK2 will be better than Rafale F5

Remember one thing- before there was any option of a 5th gen fighter available to the PAF, the IAF had the option of going for the Su-57E as it's FGFA.

They partnered with Sukhoi, paid USD 250 million for development that got them access to data that was far more in-depth than what any RFP would've gotten them. HAL was given access to a fair bit of Su-57 design as well.

It was then that the call was made that the level of stealth that it offered was simply not enough and definitely not enough to offset other drawbacks. Which is why the IAF, which by then had had a very good look at the Rafale and Typhoon through the MRCA contest, with a thorough evaluation, decided that when it came to real combat ability, the Rafale stood head and shoulders above.

That is why such a momentous decision was taken, to exit the Su-57 program (of course there were other factors as well). And the Indian MoD as well as HAL went along with the IAF's decision- clearly there would've been a lot of debates on what was to be gained by going with this stealth platform versus what the Rafale/Typhoon would bring to the table. Otherwise who would be able to justify the loss of USD 250 million that was sunk into the Su-57 JV?

I'll give another example.

Indonesia is a partner in the KF-21 Boramae program. Yet, it is spending well over USD 10 billion to buy 48 Rafales. And if the 24 F-15EX is actually contracted for, that'll be another USD 6-8 billion. Why?

Going by the logic used by some folks here, stealth alone is the magic mantra and everything else can be sidelined. Clearly, that is not so.

The professionals whose job it is to take these calls are doing it on the basis of data, otherwise it can't be justified.

Name one conflict so far where a 5th gen fighter is changing the battle space.

Even in Ukraine, the arrival of F-16 MLUs with AMRAAMs is being hailed as a big deal for tilting the balance somewhat to neutral. Russia itself has barely used the Su-57, preferring the mature Su-30SM, Su-35 and Su-34.

 

[MirageBlue]

Well if India want to go this route, it is India own decision.

Ya we know India wants to build every thing, every components, expensive journey, but your country, your own decision.

Indos, with all due respect, you still have no answer as to why your nation doesn't pay it's dues on the KFX program, while splurging billions of USD to buy 48 Rafale and sign up for 24 F-15EX.

Despite being a partner nation on the KFX, where is the contract for IFX? How many are to be bought? Why go for 2 other 4.5 gen types when you have access to a potential 5th gen type with stealth built into it's design?

 

[Indos]

Indos, with all due respect, you still have no answer as to why your nation doesn't pay it's dues on the KFX program, while splurging billions of USD to buy 48 Rafale and sign up for 24 F-15EX.

Despite being a partner nation on the KFX, where is the contract for IFX? How many are to be bought? Why go for 2 other 4.5 gen types when you have access to a potential 5th gen type with stealth built into it's design?

Duh 42 rafales order using soft long term foreign loan from French Banks, French financial institutions. Mostly loan will be paid by future loan. Commont practice as long as our economy is considered as vibrant and strong. So basically we could say that we dont pay them from our own money....

Rafale order is also for strategic relationship with French. We also can probably develop IFX by using French components, replacing US components

KF21 still uses some US critical technology, better dont put all eggs at the same basket. I have already told you this many times

How many KF21 being bought ? There is KF 21 factory in Indonesia, you can see the pictures on first page of Indonesia defense industry thread....more likely more than 100 planes....

24 F15 EX is likely scrapped. Just MOU and even we scrapped FREM contract before. As long as it is not yet reaching effective contract, it can be done

 

[silicon0000]

Remember one thing- before there was any option of a 5th gen fighter available to the PAF, the IAF had the option of going for the Su-57E as it's FGFA.

They partnered with Sukhoi, paid USD 250 million for development that got them access to data that was far more in-depth than what any RFP would've gotten them. HAL was given access to a fair bit of Su-57 design as well.

It was then that the call was made that the level of stealth that it offered was simply not enough and definitely not enough to offset other drawbacks. Which is why the IAF, which by then had had a very good look at the Rafale and Typhoon through the MRCA contest, with a thorough evaluation, decided that when it came to real combat ability, the Rafale stood head and shoulders above.

That is why such a momentous decision was taken, to exit the Su-57 program (of course there were other factors as well). And the Indian MoD as well as HAL went along with the IAF's decision- clearly there would've been a lot of debates on what was to be gained by going with this stealth platform versus what the Rafale/Typhoon would bring to the table. Otherwise who would be able to justify the loss of USD 250 million that was sunk into the Su-57 JV?

I'll give another example.

Indonesia is a partner in the KF-21 Boramae program. Yet, it is spending well over USD 10 billion to buy 48 Rafales. And if the 24 F-15EX is actually contracted for, that'll be another USD 6-8 billion. Why?

Going by the logic used by some folks here, stealth alone is the magic mantra and everything else can be sidelined. Clearly, that is not so.

The professionals whose job it is to take these calls are doing it on the basis of data, otherwise it can't be justified.

Name one conflict so far where a 5th gen fighter is changing the battle space.

Even in Ukraine, the arrival of F-16 MLUs with AMRAAMs is being hailed as a big deal for tilting the balance somewhat to neutral. Russia itself has barely used the Su-57, preferring the mature Su-30SM, Su-35 and Su-34.

Dear I am not saying for Su57, neither saying alone 5th Gen is good enough. My points are that Stealth is not over-rated and has a significant benefit and that's why US, China and rest of the world is going after it. Secondly, India is going too much behind timelines and needs to start work in parallel instead of step by step as they manage in space engine example i shared earlier, how they manage it, Indians knows better than me but they succeeded. I am not saying Indian can't do anything. Indian has done good progress in space program, Indian has done good in Navy side, Indian has done good in Missile defence side and many many other non-defence related areas. What I am saying HAL and IAF is planning to remain behind right from start. They need to do something somehow to change the picture. Reasons are mere excuses for not doing.

 

[YourDaddy]

Remember one thing- before there was any option of a 5th gen fighter available to the PAF, the IAF had the option of going for the Su-57E as it's FGFA.

They partnered with Sukhoi, paid USD 250 million for development that got them access to data that was far more in-depth than what any RFP would've gotten them. HAL was given access to a fair bit of Su-57 design as well.

It was then that the call was made that the level of stealth that it offered was simply not enough and definitely not enough to offset other drawbacks. Which is why the IAF, which by then had had a very good look at the Rafale and Typhoon through the MRCA contest, with a thorough evaluation, decided that when it came to real combat ability, the Rafale stood head and shoulders above.

That is why such a momentous decision was taken, to exit the Su-57 program (of course there were other factors as well). And the Indian MoD as well as HAL went along with the IAF's decision- clearly there would've been a lot of debates on what was to be gained by going with this stealth platform versus what the Rafale/Typhoon would bring to the table. Otherwise who would be able to justify the loss of USD 250 million that was sunk into the Su-57 JV?

I'll give another example.

Indonesia is a partner in the KF-21 Boramae program. Yet, it is spending well over USD 10 billion to buy 48 Rafales. And if the 24 F-15EX is actually contracted for, that'll be another USD 6-8 billion. Why?

Going by the logic used by some folks here, stealth alone is the magic mantra and everything else can be sidelined. Clearly, that is not so.

The professionals whose job it is to take these calls are doing it on the basis of data, otherwise it can't be justified.

Name one conflict so far where a 5th gen fighter is changing the battle space.

Even in Ukraine, the arrival of F-16 MLUs with AMRAAMs is being hailed as a big deal for tilting the balance somewhat to neutral. Russia itself has barely used the Su-57, preferring the mature Su-30SM, Su-35 and Su-34.

Remember one thing- before there was any option of a 5th gen fighter available to the PAF, the IAF had the option of going for the Su-57E as it's FGFA.

They partnered with Sukhoi, paid USD 250 million for development that got them access to data that was far more in-depth than what any RFP would've gotten them. HAL was given access to a fair bit of Su-57 design as well.

It was then that the call was made that the level of stealth that it offered was simply not enough and definitely not enough to offset other drawbacks. Which is why the IAF, which by then had had a very good look at the Rafale and Typhoon through the MRCA contest, with a thorough evaluation, decided that when it came to real combat ability, the Rafale stood head and shoulders above.

That is why such a momentous decision was taken, to exit the Su-57 program (of course there were other factors as well). And the Indian MoD as well as HAL went along with the IAF's decision- clearly there would've been a lot of debates on what was to be gained by going with this stealth platform versus what the Rafale/Typhoon would bring to the table. Otherwise who would be able to justify the loss of USD 250 million that was sunk into the Su-57 JV?

I'll give another example.

Indonesia is a partner in the KF-21 Boramae program. Yet, it is spending well over USD 10 billion to buy 48 Rafales. And if the 24 F-15EX is actually contracted for, that'll be another USD 6-8 billion. Why?

Going by the logic used by some folks here, stealth alone is the magic mantra and everything else can be sidelined. Clearly, that is not so.

The professionals whose job it is to take these calls are doing it on the basis of data, otherwise it can't be justified.

Name one conflict so far where a 5th gen fighter is changing the battle space.

Even in Ukraine, the arrival of F-16 MLUs with AMRAAMs is being hailed as a big deal for tilting the balance somewhat to neutral. Russia itself has barely used the Su-57, preferring the mature Su-30SM, Su-35 and Su-34.

The patent application of Sukhoi for Su 57 mentions a target RCS of 1 meter square (m^2). The best available data on the Rafale also sites 1m^s RCS. So, they are in the same ball park. Both of them have significant RCS reduction features and both will sport a healthy amount of RAM coating.

Only difference is that Rafale is an older design and Su 57 is a new one. Personally I think there is more room for improvements in the Sukhoi. The development potential of the Rafale is pretty much exhausted with the F4 version. These are very rough numbers and if I have to place my bets, I would bet on the Sukhoi being more stealthy especially when we consider all aspect stealth.

There is also the matter of external stores on the Rafale. Since there are no internal weapons bay, all stores will hang outside and increase RCS. The Sukhoi has pretty large internal weapons bay and it's RCS will not increase when loaded. (Unless it goes “beast mode”, if it has one like the F 35.)

 

[YourDaddy]

The only justifiable reason for Rafael is access to European weapons like the MBDA meteor and Scalp Cruise Missiles

 

[Indos]

Duh 42 rafales order using soft long term foreign loan. Mostly future loan will be paid by other loan. Commont practice as long as our economy is considered as vibrant and strong. So basically we dont pay them from our money....

Rafale order is also for strategic relationship with French. We also can probably develop IFX by using French components, replacing US components

KF21 still uses some US critical technology, better dont put all eggs at the same basket. I have already told you this many times

How many KF21 being bought ? There is KF 21 factory in Indonesia, you can see the pictures on first page of Indonesia defense industry thread....more likely more than 100 planes....

24 F15 EX is likely scrapped. Just MOU and even we scrapped FREM contract before. As long as it is not yet reaching effective contract, it can be done

Rafales to replace Hawk squadrons, very critical to replace it as soon as possible.

IFX still needs time to be developed. @MirageBlue you are aerospace engineer, you must have known what purpose KF21 5th prototype is given to Indonesian Aerospace which is for development purposes

 

[MirageBlue]

Duh 42 rafales order using soft long term foreign loan. Mostly future loan will be paid by other loan. Commont practice as long as our economy is considered as vibrant and strong. So basically we dont pay them from our money....

Rafale order is also for strategic relationship with French. We also can probably develop IFX by using French components, replacing US components

KF21 still uses some US critical technology, better dont put all eggs at the same basket. I have already told you this many times

How many KF21 being bought ? There is KF 21 factory in Indonesia, you can see the pictures on first page of Indonesia defense industry thread....more likely more than 100 planes....

24 F15 EX is likely scrapped. Just MOU and even we scrapped FREM contract before. As long as it is not yet reaching effective contract, it can be done

That's the weirdest logic I've seen. It's not free. It is a loan. You'll still have to pay for it, that too with interest. And USD 10 billion is no small amount.

You can only develop an Indonesian variant if KAI decides that it wants to continue to keep Indonesia as a partner and if Indonesia pays it's dues and places a sizeable order for the KF-21.

What critical US technology does the F-15EX not use? Lol, it's 100% US designed and developed. Anyway I've not seen any news on scrapping of plans for the F-15EX, although that would make ample sense.

My point was simple. Going by the logic on this thread, it's suicidal for Indonesia to order 4.5 gen jets. The reason is clear - since all of a sudden PAF announced it will go in for J-31, suddenly 5th gen is all that matters and all 4 and 4.5 gen fighters have overnight become obsolete. Lol.

Meanwhile, all major air forces continue to plan to use their 4 and 4.5 gen fighter fleets well into the 2050s, including France, UK, USA and Japan.

But on this forum, the only thing that now is useful is a 5th gen fighter. Everything else has become obsolete because of one announcement. Lol.

 

[Indos]

That's the weirdest logic I've seen. It's not free. It is a loan. You'll still have to pay for it, that too with interest. And USD 10 billion is no small amount.

You can only develop an Indonesian variant if KAI decides that it wants to continue to keep Indonesia as a partner and if Indonesia pays it's dues and places a sizeable order for the KF-21.

What critical US technology does the F-15EX not use? Lol, it's 100% US designed and developed. Anyway I've not seen any news on scrapping of plans for the F-15EX, although that would make ample sense.

My point was simple. Going by the logic on this thread, it's suicidal for Indonesia to order 4.5 gen jets. The reason is clear - since all of a sudden PAF announced it will go in for J-31, suddenly 5th gen is all that matters and all 4 and 4.5 gen fighters have overnight become obsolete. Lol.

Meanwhile, all major air forces continue to plan to use their 4 and 4.5 gen fighter fleets well into the 2050s, including France, UK, USA and Japan.

But on this forum, the only thing that now is useful is a 5th gen fighter. Everything else has become obsolete because of one announcement. Lol.

Indonesia has huge territory to defend. 4.5 gen fighter is still very needed as we need to spread many planes in our territory. We need numbers

And it is not 10 billion USD, but 8.1 billion USD for 42 planes, spare, and infrastructure, including training, and probably including several Rafale simulators as well.

More likely we use Rafale as part of defense from incoming missiles, attacking incoming frigates etc while KF21 is for offensive and facing dog fight

Look, Indonesia spend very little for defense for many decades and we have previously bought 32 Hawk that need to be replaced soon. With all orders including 42 Rafales, Indonesia defense budget for 2025 is only 10.5 - 11 billion USD which is only 0.65 % of 2025 projected GDP by IMF. Indonesia is among the lowest defense spender in the world relative to its GDP.

For KF21 information, SK has accepted Indonesia demand to slash our cost share. SK also has agreed to give KF21 5th prototype even after Indonesia latest demand. If they ask Indonesia to add more fund to bring KF21 5th prototype I think Indonesia is able to do that as our yearly state budget is half of Singapore total GDP.

So look like the KF21 join program looks fine.....

 

[MirageBlue]

The only justifiable reason for Rafael is access to European weapons like the MBDA meteor and Scalp Cruise Missiles

There are many more.

It is simply the most survivable 4.5 gen fighter out there. Multiple exercises and even the combat missions have shown it has exceptional Situational Awareness with extremely good sensors and EW.

It is a mature fighter, it can take on every role there is today for a fighter in an air force or navy.

Growth potential is nowhere near being exhausted for the Rafale. I'd expect some engine upgrades over the years to increase electrical capacity and thrust while increasing thrust. Plus sensor upgrades as well as weapons upgrades to allow for even longer range targeting and missiles analogous to the new AIM-174.

 

[MirageBlue]

Indonesia has huge territory to defend. 4.5 gen fighter is still very needed as we need to spread many planes in our territory. We need numbers

And it is not 10 billion USD, but 8.1 billion USD for 42 planes, spare, and infrastructure, including training, and probably including several Rafale simulators as well.

More likely we use Rafale as part of defense from incoming missiles, attacking incoming frigates etc while KF21 is for offensive and facing dog fight

Look, Indonesia spend very little for defense for many decades and we have previously bought 32 Hawk that need to be replaced soon. With all orders including 42 Rafales, Indonesia defense budget for 2025 is only 10.5 - 11 billion USD which is only 0.65 % of 2025 projected GDP by IMF. Indonesia is among the lowest defense spender in the world relative to its GDP.

For KF21 information, SK has accepted Indonesia demand to slash our cost share. SK also has agreed to give KF21 5th prototype even after Indonesia latest demand. If they ask Indonesia to add more fund to bring KF21 5th prototype I think Indonesia is able to do that as our yearly state budget is half of Singapore total GDP.

So look like the KF21 join program looks fine.....

India has a huge airspace to defend as well, that too against 2 neighbors it has gone to war with in the past.

And yet on this thread there are those who now all of a sudden think that 4th gen or 4.5 gen fighters are obsolete and are totally outclassed by 5th gen fighters. As if any nation can afford to replace all their 4th gen fighters bought over decades, with a new gen type just like that. 5th gen fighters are costlier to acquire, costlier to maintain, costlier to operate.

Every acquisition has multiple aspects to it, which include costs, capabilities on offer, possible economic and technological benefits to the nation buying as well as strategic considerations.

Coming to the KFX acquisition in Indonesia, if you could share some links to the latest news from Indonesia it'll be good. AW&ST keeps repeating that KAI is not at all happy with Indonesia as a partner for missing payments and that the investigation into possible data theft is still ongoing.

 

[Indos]

India has a huge airspace to defend as well, that too against 2 neighbors it has gone to war with in the past.

And yet on this thread there are those who now all of a sudden think that 4th gen or 4.5 gen fighters are obsolete and are totally outclassed by 5th gen fighters. As if any nation can afford to replace all their 4th gen fighters bought over decades, with a new gen type just like that. 5th gen fighters are costlier to acquire, costlier to maintain, costlier to operate.

Every acquisition has multiple aspects to it, which include costs, capabilities on offer, possible economic and technological benefits to the nation buying as well as strategic considerations.

Coming to the KFX acquisition in Indonesia, if you could share some links to the latest news from Indonesia it'll be good. AW&ST keeps repeating that KAI is not at all happy with Indonesia as a partner for missing payments and that the investigation into possible data theft is still ongoing.

There is no data thief. The information from all 8 USB comes from Indonesian Aerospace. KAI CEO has revealed that USB data is similar with shared data between KAI and Indonesian team

You can see on latest page on IFX thread and open the link containing KAI CEO statement.

I am glad for USB case as Indonesian Aerospace seems reckless interm of the program confidential data. This only bring badnews to other countries that want to develop 5 gen fighters as with this case Indonesian Aerospace is forced to be better in handling KF21 data and technologies

 

[Deino]

HAL Chief mentioned in an interview that Tejas MK2 is a crucial stepping stone toward the AMCA. advanced technologies incorporated in Tejas will directly contribute to the development of AMCA. naval version of Tejas is being used as a technology testbed for TEDBF
HAL isn't creating a showpiece propaganda fighter jet like the KAAN; they're developing a genuine 5th-generation fighter jet that will take its first flight with all systems integrated, just like the Tejas did in 2001. After that, it will undergo further modifications, testing, and certifications before entering production. As stated by the IAF Chief in his official press conference, this will be a real 5th-generation fighter jet, comparable to the F-35 or F-22.

Minor corrections and especially since you mentioned the Tejas:

- HAL is just creating a showpiece propaganda fighter .... ;
- they're are failing since decades to develop a genuine 4th-generation fighter jet namely the Tejas
- this "genuine 5th-generation fighter" will - if ever - at best take its first flight with rudimentary systems integrated, just like the Tejas did in 2001. In fact, the Tejas flown in 2001 was a demonstrator, nothing more.
- After that, there will be endless claims, announcements and plans to integrate further modifications, testing, and certifications before entering production ... .
- As stated by the IAF Chief in his official press conference, this will be a real 5th-generation fighter jet, comparable to the F-35 or F-22 in the same way, the J-20 is not a stealth fighter or can be detected by other Indian fighters!

Come on, its plain propaganda and you are either too stupid or naive - maybe both together - to notice or accept it!