Will ISRAEL lose Its ‘Numero Uno’ spot as The Most Powerful Air Force In The Middle-East ?

[MMM-E]

Mate, the US have already developed these systems and using them. Turkey is trying to catch-up in comparison.

We dont care about anyone for comparison
Turkiye has its own agenda to develop everything to match with any power in the region

KAAN 5th gen Fighter Jet
KIZILELMA and ANKA-4 unmanned stealth Fighter Jets
ANKA-3 flying-wing stealth UCAV
HAVASOJ airborne stand off jammer Aircraft
ALP-300G S band early warning AESA Radar
SIPER long range high altitude Air Defense System


so F-35 will cease to be a threat anymore

 

[MMM-E]

I am not sure about those estimated ranges. A Japanese website disclosed rcs data of different aircraft but this information is removed. Even if F-35 can be detected around 100 KM distance, there is no guarantee that a fire solution can be produced for it then and there. F-35 and F-22 - each is equipped with a comprehensive EW suite and its data fusion with onboard AESA radar system is maximized (electronically as well as with programming). Just to highlight the gap in rudimentary terms

My source from retired Air Pilot Major General and Mechanical Engineer

According to their analyzes
The most appropriate radar frequency for detecting the F-35A fighter jet is calculated between 1.5 GHz and 2 GHz

The smallest value corresponding to the L Band 1.5÷2GHz frequency, that is, the RCS that will give the lowest distance, was taken as 0.011m2.


The longest range detection range of the F-35A's L band adversarial radar, which is in the 1.5 ̴2 GHz range

-- Russian NEBO-M Radar can detect F-35 from 155 km ... ( estimated )
-- Italian RAT-31DL Radar can detect F-35 from 123 km ... ( estimated )
-- American AN/FPS-117 Radar can detect F-35 from 120+ km ... ( estimated )
-- American Boing E-7T AEWC can detect F-35 from 113 km ... ( estimated )

Turkish Air Force has AN/FPS-117 , RAT-31DL Radars and Boeing E-7T AEWC
and Turkish Aselsan ALP-300G S band AESA early warning radar can detect F-35 from long distance

Turkiye has far better EW Systems to compare with F-35s EW System
better F-35s should worry about Turkish EW Systems

200 km Aselsan REDERT-II Radar Electronic Warfare System
400 km Aselsan HAVASOJ airborne stand off jammer

Only USA , Turkiye , Israel have these technologies in the West

 

[MMM-E]

KAAN will be ready for operations in 2030, the end-product may or may not turn out like it is envisioned in documents. However, F-35 will be uplifted to Block 4 standard earlier.

According to their analyzes
Turkish retired Air Pilot Major General and Mechanical Engineer

KAAN having almost same capability with the F-35 in head to head engagement
KAAN with advanced magnetic coating and RAM panel layer it could RCS value for X band 10GHz as 0.0030 m2 [ -25dbsqm ]

Official source

Estimated head to head Engagement
F-35 = 37km
KAAN = 34km

KAAN Test Pilot Gökhan Bayramoğlu

We are pursuing an Aircraft that can dominate the entire air . Our aim is to introduce a new concept. .... Actually, there is no Fighter Jet with which we can compare it.

We always say that this will be a weapon, not a Fighter Jet
We will be able to use this weapon as a command and control center. This is the point we want to reach


ASELSAN , HAVELSAN , TUBITAK-BILGEM , ROKETSAN will equipe KAAN with the latest technology Systems-Weapons to work together with KIZILELMA and ANKA-3/4 unmanned stealth Fighter Jets in perfect coordination for tactical air combat doctrine

Israel and Greece only can dream about this concept
They will have only F-35

 

[LeGenD]

We dont care about anyone for comparison
Turkiye has its own agenda to develop everything to match with any power in the region

KAAN 5th gen Fighter Jet
KIZILELMA and ANKA-4 unmanned stealth Fighter Jets
ANKA-3 flying-wing stealth UCAV
HAVASOJ airborne stand off jammer Aircraft
ALP-300G S band early warning AESA Radar
SIPER long range high altitude Air Defense System


so F-35 will cease to be a threat anymore

Mate, your statement in bold is facepalm.

F-35 cannot be written off as a threat like that even in the years to come because it is being improved in view of emerging threats as well. Ever heard of Project Carrera?

Lockheed investing $100M into F-35 controlled combat drones under 'Project Carrera' - Breaking Defense

“The underlying behaviors, the autonomy, the way in which the rest of the ecosystem works together — that is exactly what we want to uncover in these series of experiments, to understand how you would actually field this type of capability," said a Lockheed executive.

breakingdefense.com

Combat Drone Flying With Two F-35s Attacks Targets to Prove It's a "Collaborative Killer"

Defense contractor Kratos announced the XQ-58A Valkyrie combat drone performed a collaborative flight with two F-35s and performed electronic attacks

www.autoevolution.com

F-35 will be uplifted to Block 4 standard as well, it is a big jump.

Who are your enemies? Greece? Israel? France? Maybe check their systems too and how each can benefit from NATO interoperability in a conflict situation.

My source from retired Air Pilot Major General and Mechanical Engineer

According to their analyzes
The most appropriate radar frequency for detecting the F-35A fighter jet is calculated between 1.5 GHz and 2 GHz

The smallest value corresponding to the L Band 1.5÷2GHz frequency, that is, the RCS that will give the lowest distance, was taken as 0.011m2.


The longest range detection range of the F-35A's L band adversarial radar, which is in the 1.5 ̴2 GHz range

-- Russian NEBO-M Radar can detect F-35 from 155 km ... ( estimated )
-- Italian RAT-31DL Radar can detect F-35 from 123 km ... ( estimated )
-- American AN/FPS-117 Radar can detect F-35 from 120+ km ... ( estimated )
-- American Boing E-7T AEWC can detect F-35 from 113 km ... ( estimated )

Turkish Air Force has AN/FPS-117 , RAT-31DL Radars and Boeing E-7T AEWC
and Turkish Aselsan ALP-300G S band AESA early warning radar can detect F-35 from long distance
View attachment 47951


Turkiye has far better EW Systems to compare with F-35s EW System
better F-35s should worry about Turkish EW Systems

200 km Aselsan REDERT-II Radar Electronic Warfare System
400 km Aselsan HAVASOJ airborne stand off jammer
View attachment 47953

View attachment 47952


Only USA , Turkiye , Israel have these technologies in the West

F-35 is designed and currently equipped to deflect and absorb radar waves across a number of frequency bands ranging from L to V by virtue of its shaping when combined with its known RAM application:

A radar absorbing composite includes a (CNT)-infused fiber material disposed in at least a portion of a matrix material. The composite absorbs radar in a frequency range from about 0.10 Megahertz to about 60 Gigahertz. The CNT-infused fiber material forms a first layer that reduces radar reflectance and a second layer that dissipates the energy of the radar. A method of manufacturing this composite includes disposing a CNT-infused fiber material in a portion of a matrix material with a controlled orientation of the CNT-infused fiber material within the matrix material, and curing the matrix material. The composite can be formed into a panel which is adaptable as a structural component of a transport vessel or missile for use in stealth applications.

US20100271253A1 - Cnt-based signature control material - Google Patents

A radar absorbing composite includes a (CNT)-infused fiber material disposed in at least a portion of a matrix material. The composite absorbs radar in a frequency range from about 0.10 Megahertz to about 60 Gigahertz. The CNT-infused fiber material forms a first layer that reduces radar...

patents.google.com

This RAM application allows F-35 to deflect and absorb radar waves across frequency bands ranging from L to V. The F-35 can be difficult to detect and track even in VHF band.

I have a simple question: why Russian S-400 system failed to detect F-35 in Syria even though it was paired with Nebo-M radar technology (see post # 139)? Does your source have an answer? Your source is taking estimates at face value and you are taking his word at face value. I have shown you otherwise.

Turkey has far better EW systems than F-35 EW system? Absolutely, mate. Boasting and exaggerating is an Asian thing, I get it.

 

[MMM-E]

F-35 cannot be written off as a threat like that even in the years to come because it is being improved in view of emerging threats as well. Ever heard of Project Carrera?

XQ-58A is a toy to compare with Turkish KIZILELMA

XQ-58 lack AESA Radar , EOTS and IRST
Also XQ-58A is small with payload capacity of 270 kg in internal weapons bay

Length: 9,1 m
Max takeoff weight: 2,722 kg
Capacity: 550 kg

XQ-58 can carry 2 AIM-120 air to air Missiles with two underwing hardpoints
but not in stealth mode



KIZILELMA has same advanced characteristics as 5th-generation Fighters

-- High situational awareness with EOTS , IRST and AESA Radar
-- Stealth design featuring a low radar signature
-- Internal weapon bay for stealth flight capability
-- Smart fleet autonomy equipped with artificial intelligence
-- Air to Air Missiles , Guided Munitions , Cruise Missiles

Length: 14.7 m
Max takeoff weight: 8,500 kg
Capacity: 1,500 kg

KIZIELMA can carry 1500 kg weapon in internal weapon bay
including 275 km SOM-J stealth Cruise Missiles and 100+ km GOKDOGAN air to air Missiles

Also there will be twin engine variant of KIZILELMA with 2 x TF-1000 turbofan engines
( each 10.000 lbf )

KIZILELMA-Block2 will be bigger than F-16V and RAFALE

 

[MMM-E]

Who are your enemies? Greece or Israel? Maybe check their systems too and how both can benefit from NATO inteoperatibility as well.

What about Greece or Israel ?
They can buy XQ-58 which will be easy target from Turkish KIZILELMA

 

[LeGenD]

XQ-58A is a toy to compare with Turkish KIZILELMA

XQ-58 lack AESA Radar , EOTS and IRST
Also XQ-58A is small with payload capacity of 270 kg in internal weapons bay

Length: 9,1 m
Max takeoff weight: 2,722 kg
Capacity: 550 kg
View attachment 48011

XQ-58 can carry 2 AIM-120 air to air Missiles with two underwing hardpoints
but not in stealth mode



KIZILELMA has same advanced characteristics as 5th-generation Fighters

-- High situational awareness with EOTS , IRST and AESA Radar
-- Stealth design featuring a low radar signature
-- Internal weapon bay for stealth flight capability
-- Smart fleet autonomy equipped with artificial intelligence
-- Air to Air Missiles , Guided Munitions , Cruise Missiles

Length: 14.7 m
Max takeoff weight: 8,500 kg
Capacity: 1,500 kg

KIZIELMA can carry 1500 kg weapon in internal weapon bay
including 275 km SOM-J stealth Cruise Missiles and 100+ km GOKDOGAN air to air Missiles
View attachment 48012

Also there will be twin engine variant of KIZILELMA with 2 x TF-1000 turbofan engines
( each 10.000 lbf )

KIZILELMA-Block2 will be bigger than F-16V and RAFALE
View attachment 48013

KIZILELMA is impressive drone, I like it.

The US have also developed a number of stealthy drones but they are not openly discussed. I will see what I can find.

 

[MMM-E]

Turkey has far better EW systems than F-35 EW system? Absolutely, mate. Boasting and exaggerating is an Asian thing, I get it.

Still dreaming with a tiny EW System on F-35 ( The AN/ASQ-239 electronic warfare suite )


HAVASOJ stand off jammer can jam and paralyze enemy Radars and Communication Systems from 400 km away

HAVASOJ will combine many different electronic warfare capabilities on a single Aircraft

-- Radar Electronic Support and Electronic Attack Sub System
-- Communication Electronic Support and Electronic Attack Sub System
-- Self Protection Sub System
-- Communication and Tactical Data-Link Sub System
-- Sense and counter measure capabilities of Radar and Missile threats
-- AESA Technology

This technology is far superior to AN/ASQ-239 electronic warfare suite on F-35

Mobile version REDET-II next gen Radar EW System with range of 200 km

You have an admiration for the West and you think that only they have technology.

Turkiye is also a part of the West and NATO

 

[LeGenD]

Still dreaming with a tiny EW System on F-35 ( The AN/ASQ-239 electronic warfare suite )

HAVASOJ stand off jammer can jam and paralyze enemy Radars and Communication Systems from 400 km away

HAVASOJ will combine many different electronic warfare capabilities on a single Aircraft

-- Radar Electronic Support and Electronic Attack Sub System
-- Communication Electronic Support and Electronic Attack Sub System
-- Self Protection Sub System
-- Communication and Tactical Data-Link Sub System
-- Sense and counter measure capabilities of Radar and Missile threats
-- AESA Technology

This technology is far superior to AN/ASQ-239 electronic warfare suite on F-35
View attachment 48014

Mobile version REDET-II next gen Radar EW System with range of 200 km
View attachment 48017
View attachment 48016
View attachment 48015

Tiny? Lmao.

EA-18G Growler is also "tiny," but it is one of the most potent EW platforms in existence.

Despite the program’s importance, though, many politicians, pundits and even some senior military officers don’t understand key features of the F-35. For example, although the fighter is frequently described as “stealthy”—invisible to detection or tracking by radar and other sensors—public reference is seldom made to its electronic warfare capabilities.

That’s understandable, because release of details about the F-35 electronic warfare (EW) system is carefully controlled. However, it is the synergy of an integrated stealth design with the world’s most advanced EW architecture that makes F-35 the most survivable combat aircraft ever built. So you can’t fully understand the F-35 value proposition unless you have some grasp of the plane’s electronic warfare capabilities.

I have business ties of one sort or another to several of the biggest contractors involved in the F-35 program including airframe integrator Lockheed Martin, engine provider Pratt & Whitney, and electronic warfare lead BAE Systems. And yet, two decades after the fighter was first conceived, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have ever had a serious conversation about the on-board EW suite. The industry team doesn’t like to talk about it in public, and neither does the government.

So what follows comes from other sources, all of them available to the public if people are willing to dig. Let’s begin with a description of what electronic warfare is all about. Among the handful of elemental forces that define our universe, electromagnetic energy has proven to be by far the most malleable in human hands. Electromagnetic energy is often said to be arrayed in a spectrum ranging from forms with the lowest frequencies (vibrations per second) and longest wavelengths to those with the highest frequencies and shortest wavelengths.

There are no obvious boundaries in this continuum, but the properties of electromagnetic energy gradually change as frequencies increase and wavelengths decrease. The two most useful segments of the EM spectrum for warfighters are the infrared region of frequencies just below the visible light range, and the radio-wave frequencies of longer wavelength than infrared. As this description implies, radio waves and infrared energy are invisible to the human eye, but they can be readily detected and manipulated using a variety of technologies.

That is what electronic warfare was conceived to do. Long before the Pentagon designated the electromagnetic spectrum as a warfighting “domain,” military planners had figured out that if they could exploit the properties of radio and infrared waves while denying spectrum access to enemies, they would gain important operational advantages. For instance, by overloading relevant frequencies with energy, they could prevent enemy communications and radars from functioning effectively, and disrupt the homing sensors on heat-seeking missiles (which operate at infrared frequencies).

However, there are problems with this strategy. If you generate enough energy to “jam” hostile communications, you might disrupt friendly transmissions—or become a beacon to your enemies. So electronic warfare isn’t just about pumping out a lot of energy, it’s about managing how that energy is used while disguising your location and intent. The F-35 fighter is by far the most advanced expression of this science ever devised, because it must reconcile the generation of diverse signals with the requirement to remain stealthy and continuously utilize other on-board systems such as digital datalinks.

The only way to make all of these functions operate in harmony was to create an integrated architecture in which all of the key features of the airframe were closely coupled. That architecture differs greatly from the looser, “federated” architectures of last-generation fighters, because those aircraft were not designed to be stealthy. Once you decide you want to be invisible to enemy radar and other sensors, though, every emission your plane generates has to be carefully controlled. So even the turbofan engine on the F-35 is designed to limit its reflectivity to radar and the heat of its exhaust.

The core of the F-35’s electronic warfare system is the AN/ASQ-239 EW suite, a modular system providing both defensive and offensive capabilities ranging from detection of hostile emitters to geolocation of threats to the automated release of countermeasures—either infrared flares or radar-reflecting chaff. The system provides continuous, precise monitoring of threat frequencies in all directions, fusing and displaying relevant information inside the visor of the high-tech helmet worn by the plane's pilot. It not only will prioritize solutions to a threat, but it can respond without any action by the pilot.

The system also can assimilate information from various offboard sources including other F35s via a variety of secure datalinks, so that a pilot has comprehensive awareness of where hostile and friendly forces are in his or her vicinity. In fact, F-35 collects so much information in so many frequencies and wavelengths that it is often described by users as a sponge—soaking up everything in its operating area worth knowing.

Because the F-35 is highly integrated, it isn’t so easy to describe where the EW system ends and other parts on the electronic architecture start. Everything gets channeled through a central processor that sorts out diverse inputs at the rate of a trillion operations per second, and then the most appropriate on-board systems are used to address threats as needed. For instance, a “distributed aperture system” of six infrared cameras scattered around the airframe might detect surface-to-air missile launches originating from a particular location, leading to a pilot’s decision not only to dispense flares but also jam radars in the same area using the fighter’s multi-function radar.

Executing that kind of complicated response from a legacy fighter would take precious time, and might not be feasible at all given design limitations. Moreover, a legacy fighter would lack the advantage of an integrated stealth design, making it much more vulnerable even with EW upgrades. No aircraft can be invisible in every electromagnetic frequency, but the F-35 is designed to be so hard to detect in the frequencies used by targeting radars that an enemy would need to be nearly within visible range to even attempt a kill (very few enemies would be able to get that close without being shot down).

There are many arcane features of the F-35 EW system that I don’t have space to describe here, such as the towed decoy that distracts incoming missiles and the digital library that stores details about all known threats. Suffice it to say that when you take into account all the electronic features of the F-35 fighter and then combine them with the stealth qualities of engine and airframe, you end up with an invincible combat aircraft piloted by an operator with unprecedented situational awareness. This is why F-35s typically kill over 20 adversary aircraft for every friendly loss in exercises aimed at honing pilot skills.

The F-35 Isn't Just 'Stealthy': Here's How Its Electronic Warfare System Gives It An Edge

Public reference is seldom made to the fighter's formidable electronic warfare system, but it's those capabilities combined with its better known integrated stealth design that make F-35 the most unbeatable combat aircraft ever built. Here's what's known about its EW capabilities.

www.forbes.com

Mate, you think that the US doesn't know shit about EW? Really?

Russians also thought that but could not jam Tomahawk cruise missiles, let alone F-35 in Syria. Russian insider(s) admitted this after some years.

The US have also created airborne EW behemoths, if this is your point. However, in the world of electronics and microprocessors, "tiny" is not a sound argument. And those surface jammers have limited utility. You cannot hope to challenge an airborne EW platform with REDET-II.

 

[UKBengali]

Yugoslavia wasn't weak in 1999. It had formidable defenses at the time. You think that USAF struck Yugoslavia with 21st century tech? These type of arguments are lame and they show that you have not studied history properly.

Ukraine have demonstrated the capability to hit Moscow and even Russian military bases. Ukraine have also conducted commando raids deep inside Russia. Wake up, mate.

S-125 and SA-6 were the most modern air defence systems Yugoslavia had in 1999.

S-125 was in service in 1961 and SA-6 in 1967.

Yes the Yugoslavs made some upgrades to these systems but they were decades from being "state of the art" in 1999.

Please stop overhyping the capabilities of the small and mainly 3rd world states the US along with up to 30 "allies" went to war with.

Russia aviation is rubbish and those that gain access to latest Chinese systems like J-31 could end up dominating the skies of the ME.

 

[MMM-E]

EA-18G Growler is also "tiny," but it is one of the most potent EW platforms in existence.

HAVASOJ is another level

We can compare the AN/ASQ-239 electronic warfare suite with Turkish Aselsan FEWS electronic warfare suite for the KAAN 5th gen Fighter Jet

or Aselsan SPEWS-II electronic warfare suite on our F-16s

The EA-18G use EW Pods AN/ALQ-218 and AN/ALQ-99

AN/ALQ-218

AN/ALQ-99

Its not tiny

Turkish MEHPOD Jamming Pod

Israeli Sky Shield Jamming Pod

 

[MMM-E]

And those surface jammers have limited utility. You cannot hope to challenge an airborne EW platform with REDET-II.

REDET-II has range of 200 km against Airborne Radars
Aegean Sea is under our control

And HAVASOJ is airborne variant with range of 400 km


Only Turkiye and Israel have these technologies in the region

Turkiye : REDET-II and HAVASOJ
Israel : SCORPIUS and SEMA

 

[LeGenD]

S-125 and SA-6 were the most modern air defence systems Yugoslavia had in 1999.

S-125 was in service in 1961 and SA-6 in 1967.

Yes the Yugoslavs made some upgrades to these systems but they were decades from being "state of the art" in 1999.

Please stop overhyping the capabilities of the small and mainly 3rd world states the US along with up to 30 "allies" went to war with.

Russia aviation is rubbish and those that gain access to latest Chinese systems like J-31 could end up dominating the skies of the ME.

Mate, are you posting in the right thread? Small Germany and Japan overwhelmed many countries in World War 2 but could not handle a US-led coalition for long when it came for both separately. Please stop using labels like 3rd world states to discredit them and their ability to fight a war because they could not handle a US-led coalition in a war. Several members provided a fairly decent explanation in this thread. My explanation is in this post.

Composition of a US-led coalition is not a sound argument. The US does not have to send a big force to every theater when it can call upon its allies to assemble a task force to its bidding in a particular region. This is a cost-effective approach to fight a regional war. The US-led coalition used only 214 aircraft to fight a war with Yugoslavia in 1991 (Operation Allied Force).

Yugoslavian air defense system was mobile and assumed to be competent before the war. Yugoslavia had created some of the earliest examples of IMAD in fact. It was this innovation that made Yugoslavian SAM systems more effective in operational conditions. The US-led coalition also had its limitations at the time: 29% of the munitions used in war were precision guided. The US-led coalition used B-2A bomber(s) to attack and degrade Yugoslavian military infrastructure in the opening days of war so that other aircraft would be much less exposed to surface threats while using standard-issue munitions. Do you think that Russia or China had something like B-2A to help overcome Yugoslavian defenses in 1999? Do you think that the Russian S-300 system could make any difference if it was given to Yugoslavia in 1999?

Well, what do you know about J-31? It is under development and not used in combat operations yet. WE don't know how good it is and what it can do in let's say India in war.

 

[LeGenD]

REDET-II has range of 200 km against Airborne Radars
Aegean Sea is under our control

And HAVASOJ is airborne variant with range of 400 km


Only Turkiye and Israel have these technologies in the region

Turkiye : REDET-II and HAVASOJ
Israel : SCORPIUS and SEMA

Russia Announced It Had Deployed, To Ukraine, Its Best New Artillery-Detecting Radar. Hours Later, The Ukrainians Blew It Up—With Artillery.

Russian media announced the deployment of Russia’s high-tech counterbattery radar. Hours later in southern Ukraine, the Ukrainians blew it up ... with artillery rockets.

www.forbes.com

Ukrainians Destroy Russian R-330Zh Zhitel Electronic Warfare System Ja

Ukrainians Destroy Russian R-330Zh Zhitel Electronic Warfare System Jammer of US Excalibur Ammunition & HIMARS

armyrecognition.com

Mate, do not place much faith in "claims." Russian EW systems are not a joke but you can see the obvious. Surface jammers are vulnerable to airborne threats as well as to weapon systems on the ground.

 

[UKBengali]

Well, what do you know about J-31? It is under development and not used in combat operations yet. WE don't know how good it is and what it can do in let's say India in war.

Just like you have no idea of how good the F-35 is but you keep talking about its "amazing capabilities".

It works both ways and your opinion is no more valid than mine.

F-35 has not even engaged in BVR duels or attack against even the latest Russian fighters(SU-35/SU-57) or SAM(S-300MPU-2/S-400) systems and so let us hold fire on its "amazing capabilities" till we have some real world data.