Z-10 ME/P deliveries Updates: Pakistan Army Aviation.

[Corax]

Anti tank weaponry has existed since WW1 but did they make it obsolete? Just because there was something that can destroy it doesn't mean it's obsolete.

As Ukraine has shown, it can be more effective to use drones and UAVs against armour than gunships.

 

[Toxic]

I wouldn't call the Ka-52 "ancient". As I mentioned, gunships are most effective in uncontested airspace. The US used theirs under air superiority, the Russians haven't achieved that in Ukraine, with limited combined arms capability, hence their appalling loss rate of gunships, despite having defensive suites and countermeasures.

Vast majority of Russian KA-52s are of 90s vintage

 

[Toxic]

As Ukraine has shown, it can be more effective to use drones and UAVs against armour than gunships.

Ukrainian TB-2s were only effective during the intial phase of the war because Russian armoured columns had no ad cover, once Russian AD caught up TB-2s became a non factor, while it was KA-52s that decimated Ukrainian armour in 2023

 

[Corax]

Vast majority of Russian KA-52s are of 90s vintage

So are most of the US gunships like Apaches. That doesn't make them ancient. They still have defensive suites and countermeasures, but that hasn't helped them much in Ukraine.

 

[Ali_Baba]

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That is a really nice paint scheme( I know that image is CGI ), but i do wonder how the PAA will have them - looking forward to seeing them soon.

 

[Toxic]

So are most of the US gunships like Apaches. That doesn't make them ancient. They still have defensive suites and countermeasures, but that hasn't helped them much in Ukraine.

Countermeasures have vastly advanced since the 90s, having first generation defensive suites don't make you immune to man pads.

 

[Corax]

Ukrainian TB-2s were only effective during the intial phase of the war because Russian armoured columns had no ad cover, once Russian AD caught up TB-2s became a non factor, while it was KA-52s that decimated Ukrainian armour in 2023

True, but the appalling russian armour losses have also been due to cheap drones, leading to "cope cages" on russian tanks. There's no real AD against those types of attacks.

 

[falcon34]

Do we really need these hefty gunships??.
Can't drones do their job, why are still stuck in CAS, times have changed. More FPVs, More loitering munitions and S2,3 wouldn't that be better choice??.

 

[Toxic]

True, but the appalling russian armour losses have also been due to cheap drones, leading to "cope cages" on russian tanks. There's no real AD against those types of attacks.

That's simply because counter measures for cheap FPV's haven't caught up yet, once things like APS and tanks having EW suites become standard they will disappear, also all that footage is a bit misleading, 90% of FPV's get taken out before they hit anything, thats because FPV counter measures are rapidly catching up.

 

[Toxic]

Do we really need these hefty gunships??.
Can't drones do their job, why are still stuck in CAS, times have changed. More FPVs, More loitering munitions and S2,3 wouldn't that be better choice??.

Why don't people get it, FPV's can't replace everything, why are we buying fighter jets? Why not replace them with FPVs?

 

[Lion]

Recent conflicts would suggest otherwise.

No they don’t, at all. Unless you follow conflicts purely through social media.

 

[Lion]

Unfortunately for us Military grade tech does not scale that way, technology absolutely does, but not mainstream military tech, and given the acquisitions by both India and Pakistan, I think the leadership agrees.

As I mentioned before - in the military the first trial for any technology is logistics, everyone here, including you, is thinking about AI and UCAVs from a purely tech demonstrator perspective and giving examples of countries like Japan and South Korea with niche defense requirements and logistical capabilities that will allow for them to achieve this within the next decade (certainly not this one). None of this applies to Pakistan and our theatre at all.

Nobody is saying that UCAVs don’t have a place in the battlefield or that we shouldn’t be investing in them, if anything Pakistan has invested far more heavily in UCAVs and LMs than most peer militaries and you’ll see this in the coming years with the amount and type of platforms being inducted, but at the same time, the planners (thankfully) understand that no matter what social media shows, AI and automation is not ready to take over traditional combat roles in the south Asian theatre, not because we are limited by technological capabilities, I didn’t argue that at all, but because for the foreseeable future we are limited by logistical capabilities.

As a very small example - buying Z-10MEs to replace Cobras is a traditional military acquisition, and it will still come with massive logistical planning and execution to upgrade hangars, train pilots, maintenance crew, engineers, weapon techs etc etc etc.

Now imagine the requirements to shift this entire role from a manned gunship to a VTOL UCAV in our theatre, with our capabilities, our constraints (logistical and financial) and our doctrines (which have been in place and have been trained for 20 years) and then tell me wether you still think it is a worthwhile risk and investment to replace Manned gunships with UCAVs right now or anytime soon when a potential war over water is a high possibility within the next 5 years (as you say “near future”). Mind you an equivalent platform doesn’t even exist right now, it will have to be designed, tested and then be put on sale by an ally nation, and then we’ll have to test and evaluate it, and then we’ll have to buy it and implement it, if this takes till 2030, then what do we do till then?

There is a good border between using foreign conflicts and armies as examples to judge how our theatre will change, unfortunately everyone seems to be on the far side of the border where they consider that “because this is happening in X, Y and Z, it also applies to us”, it absolutely does to some extent, but not enough to risk it right now…it takes several years to plan and implement a major weapon acquisition and the required training and doctrinal changes with it, And we needed these gunships 10 years ago. ​

Refer to this post and the one after it. You cannot replace Gunships with UCAVs in general at the moment, but it’s especially impossible in our theatre, other theaters don’t translate 1-1 to ours anyways.

@Corax @falcon34

 

[hussain0216]

Do we really need these hefty gunships??.
Can't drones do their job, why are still stuck in CAS, times have changed. More FPVs, More loitering munitions and S2,3 wouldn't that be better choice??.

Every tool has it's use, even if some tools use overlaps other tools, their are times when a specific tool is the correct tool for the job at hand


We need drones
We need FPV drones
We need EW and multilayered A.D

But I can see the utility if these helicopters on both borders against both terrorists and India

The only question I have is how many we need, I think traditionally anything between 40-80 would be respectable

But today, I'm not sure we need that much, and I'm not sure how many we have ordered or will receive

I think about 40 seems right, considering the size of our country, our enemies and the length of time these will serve (decades I assume)


I also hope our cobras or what's left of them can be used in Balochistan and Waziristan to provide quick support to our forces during attacks or COIN.
Unless they are dangerous to use, a helicopter gunship is the physical stamp of dominations to get the terrorists running,

 

[ghazi52]

 

[ghazi52]