Z-10 ME/P deliveries Updates: Pakistan Army Aviation.

[RajaBaja]

F-7PG can be handy in anti-drone and anti-chopper role I imagine

They carry like 2 WVR missiles each. If they take off and are shot at with let's say 2 BVR from S-400's per jet, what use will we get out of them? We risk our pilot lives, which are far more important.

In today's time, these are essentially sitting ducks in a true conflict. If we need these to keep the pilots flight worthy, we should move these to Peshawer and Baluchistan area to give our pilots the flight time, but the leadership knows these require urgent replacements.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

Under 100% "data-link" condition while being an integral part of the "kill web", these jets can be shot into the "sweet spot" to take the shot (even an SD10 would work)....

I don't understand why everyone is somehow trying to force F-7s into battle against india. that's the irony, F-7PG isn't SD-10 Capable. They cannot be shoved into dense EW environment. They lack supporting avionics and no EW. They are lowest tech aircrafts of previous era. Second gen aircrafts.

Better, efficient, cost effective options are available for anti-drone ops, F-7p/pgs are ok for western border patrol (afghanistan / iran) and they are keeping pilots and squadron in active service until these are being replaced with newer jets.

 

[Blain2]

I don't understand why everyone is somehow trying to force F-7s into battle against india. that's the irony, F-7PG isn't SD-10 Capable. They cannot be shoved into dense EW environment. They lack supporting avionics and no EW. They are lowest tech aircrafts of previous era. Second gen aircrafts.

Better, efficient, cost effective options are available for anti-drone ops, F-7p/pgs are ok for western border patrol (afghanistan / iran) and they are keeping pilots and squadron in active service until these are being replaced with newer jets.

Good call. The days of F-7 are over unless there is localized air superiority achieved (i.e. at least out to a few hundred miles).
It is a still a good platform for CAS and can take the load off other MR aircraft. However, its own survival in a BVR contested environment would be very questionable. Hopefully all the F-7 Sqns are going to be moved over to JF-17 b3 or moved to additional J-10s.

 

[Michael]

Good call. The days of F-7 are over unless there is localized air superiority achieved (i.e. at least out to a few hundred miles).
It is a still a good platform for CAS and can take the load off other MR aircraft. However, its own survival in a BVR contested environment would be very questionable. Hopefully all the F-7 Sqns are going to be moved over to JF-17 b3 or moved to additional J-10s.

Many years ago, China began retiring its J6/J7 fighter jets. A large portion of these aircraft were converted into UAVs. A small number of these converted UAVs were sent to various test bases for use as target aircraft, while the majority were stored. In times of war, these UAVs would serve as the first strike force, depleting the enemy's air defenses.

Of the pilots who once flew the J6/J7, most of the older ones became UAV operators (not J6/J7 UAVs), while the younger ones switched to flying 4.5/5th-generation fighter jets.

 

[Scorpio]

Many years ago, China began retiring its J6/J7 fighter jets. A large portion of these aircraft were converted into UAVs. A small number of these converted UAVs were sent to various test bases for use as target aircraft, while the majority were stored. In times of war, these UAVs would serve as the first strike force, depleting the enemy's air defenses.

Of the pilots who once flew the J6/J7, most of the older ones became UAV operators (not J6/J7 UAVs), while the younger ones switched to flying 4.5/5th-generation fighter jets.

How much effort is required to convert these oldies to UAVs in term of technically and financially

 

[Michael]

How much effort is required to convert these oldies to UAVs in term of technically and financially

It depends on the condition of the vintage aircraft itself and how advanced a UAV you want it to be.
1. If it's an older aircraft with mechanical transmission control, it must be equipped with a control conversion system. However, for an older aircraft with a fly-by-wire system, the process is much simpler.
2. If you only want a suicide UAV, then the cost is not too high. If you want it to have reconnaissance capabilities or other more advanced features, then the cost will be very high.

China's requirements for these older fighter jets are simple. They are to be used as battlefield cannon fodder, to deplete "enemy" air defense missiles. They carry a lot of fuel, and their own explosions generate significant force. They also carry a large number of aerial bombs. You can simply think of them as something between remote-controlled aircraft and UAVs. They don't have many advanced sensors. They are simply consumables.

Not counting the cost of other explosives, the cost of modification alone is around $100,000 to $200,000. Adding more features would cost an incalculable amount.

When they are actually used, they require the cooperation of other systems, such as satellite systems or other more advanced UAVs to provide navigation and communication data relays...

This is off the main thread. Game over!

 

[Reichmarshal]

Emotional statements don't help anyone in discussions.
F-16s are 40 year old airframes?

The original peace gate are beyond 40 - many being built in 1981.
The embargoed released Peace gate-IIs delivered from mothballed stocks are less.
The Peace Drive even lesser.
You are welcome to fact check your statement here. https://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/serials-and-inventory/airforce/PAF/

Airframe age is just one part of the equation - hours on the airframe may matter more if the aircraft are kept in generally good environments such as dry , moderate heat locations which technically Sargodha could qualify as especially with some of the hangars having environmental controls. they have received various upgrades in terms of both airframe life extensions and avionics(which are also now approaching obsolesce.
Which means that they consume a lot more spares than they did after each subsequent life extension and upgrade.


As far as the AH-1s are concerned they have zero survivability in most day 1 scenarios against India.
More importantly while they have been to Kamra initially for some basic upgrades and received some overhauls - they are also very old - and while helicopters have less stress on their frames compared to fighter aircraft they are at the end of their useful life.

They can still be put into the air and kept flying for another 10 years and excellent for taking out individuals with AKs or RPGs at best. But throwing them east is cannon fodder at best.

Sorry for the delayed replying, ( as have real life n work to contend with )
I am perplexed by though process of some members here.

The whole point of posts on the z10 thread was.
1.Pakistan does not have the financial space to replace its whole legacy fleet be it PAF, PA or the PN in an instant.
2. in such a circumstance it has to make do and utilize its legacy ac/helos to the best of their abilities in conjunction with the state of the art ac/helos it got.
3. The legacy fleet has been kept in ship shape condition, with consistant supply of parts and constant upgrades throughout their service.
4. Legacy fleet for the foreseeable future are not going any where and will serve atleast till the first half of the next decade as far as the cobras r concerned, while the PAF legacy fleet can go on to serve further.

 

[Reichmarshal]

I don't understand why everyone is somehow trying to force F-7s into battle against india. that's the irony, F-7PG isn't SD-10 Capable. They cannot be shoved into dense EW environment. They lack supporting avionics and no EW. They are lowest tech aircrafts of previous era. Second gen aircrafts.

Better, efficient, cost effective options are available for anti-drone ops, F-7p/pgs are ok for western border patrol (afghanistan / iran) and they are keeping pilots and squadron in active service until these are being replaced with newer jets.

They along with the rose mirages are being made sd 10 capabile

 

[Lion]

They along with the rose mirages are being made sd 10 capabile

We’ve been hearing that for several years now regarding the Mirages, there’s only 33~ Mirages in the PAF capable of receiving such a modification, but it hasn’t happened and likely will not happen. Even if it does, without modern countermeasures and limited radar capability it’s a very last resort measure. The Indian MiG-21s are technically BVR capable, doesn’t make them potent.

There’s been so such proof or even credible rumor about the PG receiving such a modification, even if it did, it would not be a viable or safe BVR asset. Limited range (both radar and airplane), limited countermeasures, no-on board EW. Not to mention the fact that the airframes are going to start being dangerous just a few years down the line, much like the F7s became. These platforms are not good for extending the life of like Mirages or F-16s, our experience with the F7P, BDs experience with the F7BGI and Indias experience with the Bison are proof of it. Why would the PAF want to risk pilots like this?

 

[Yasser76]

F-7PG and Mirages were also non HOTAS and non fly by wire. In the past this was good for rookie pilots to fly on, as they had to master the basics, but I guess with JF-17/F-16/J-10C/J-35 that may never be needed again

 

[Lion]

Sorry for the delayed replying, ( as have real life n work to contend with )
I am perplexed by though process of some members here.

The whole point of posts on the z10 thread was.
1.Pakistan does not have the financial space to replace its whole legacy fleet be it PAF, PA or the PN in an instant.
2. in such a circumstance it has to make do and utilize its legacy ac/helos to the best of their abilities in conjunction with the state of the art ac/helos it got.
3. The legacy fleet has been kept in ship shape condition, with consistant supply of parts and constant upgrades throughout their service.
4. Legacy fleet for the foreseeable future are not going any where and will serve atleast till the first half of the next decade as far as the cobras r concerned, while the PAF legacy fleet can go on to serve further.

I like how you moved the goalposts several miles after being called out for what was basically straight up misinformation.

1. This was my point, not yours, so don’t act like you were saying it from the start.

2. No it does not, Pakistan does not and should not actively use legacy hardware at the risk of losing manpower and pilots - the pilots cost more to train than the legacy hardware, this is your assumption that PA/PAF would be willing to employ legacy hardware so willingly knowing the risks it poses, you also haven’t come up with any realistic scenario where said legacy hardware can be employed by the PA/PAF in a meaningful way without major losses. The Strikes in 2019 were carried out by ROSE upgraded Mirages (not legacy hardware in this case), and even that role has now been relegated to the JF-17 as Per PAF’s own words.

3. Again, this was not what you said initially, as we discussed before, the Mirages were kept in good condition by buying several dozen mirages from other countries to cannibalize for spares, on top of that PAF had to retire and use its own birds for parts to keep smaller numbers of mirages flying, on top of that the ROSE project was applied to airframes with the lowest flight hours purchased from foreign nations, on top of that they had major airframe rebuilds. The AH-1s do not have the luxury of any of these. We don’t have a parts fleet for them, nor do we have any major sources for spare parts for them (Turkey was a good supplier for the longest while but they don’t have an unlimited supply either). It is a proven visual fact that the AH-1 fleet is being retired slowly, I’m not sure how you keep overlooking that.

4. This is another solid example of moving the goalposts because your claims went from “the overwhelming majority is in service” and “they will serve for a long time in frontline roles” to “they’ll serve for a few years” (which is coincidentally what everyone else was trying to correct you with).

You’re perplexed because you’re too egotistical to accept when you’re wrong. Do better.

 

[Reichmarshal]

We’ve been hearing that for several years now, there’s only 33~ Mirages in the PAF capable of receiving such a modification, but it hasn’t happened and likely will not happen. Even if it does, without modern countermeasures and limited radar capability it’s a very last resort measure. The Indian MiG-21s are technically BVR capable, doesn’t make them potent.

The mistake that every one make when they look at them.....they consider them in singularity....while wt needs to be done is that they need to be looked at in totality.
When we do that then we understand and get a clear picture where every ac fits in the whole mix.

PG have always has a limited bvr capability so fitting the SD 10 to them makes sense.
Same goes for the rose mirages. In addition their is also talk of converting some of the mirages into EW ac .

 

[Yasser76]

The mistake that every one make when they look at them.....they consider them in singularity....while wt needs to be done is that they need to be looked at in totality.
When we do that then we understand and get a clear picture where every ac fits in the whole mix.

PG have always has a limited bvr capability so fitting the SD 10 to them makes sense.
Same goes for the rose mirages. In addition their is also talk of converting some of the mirages into EW ac .

I suspect PAF will be moving away from SD-10 no?

 

[RajaBaja]

They along with the rose mirages are being made sd 10 capabile

This is not the case. This idea surfaced a long time ago. The airframes are a risk for Pilot lives, and secondly, with India massing up S-400's and internal made SAMs on our border, these aircrafts will become sitting ducks even with SD-10s.

India wants a parity of its AD missiles to hit Pakistani aircrafts inside Pak airspace with 1:3 (3 missiles per 1 aircraft). The Mirages and PG's don't have any top end ECM either. If now we think about Radar, Weapons and ECM suite upgrades on such old airframes, we should add some more funds in these upgrades and acquire more JF-17's or if urgently needed, their new trainer / light combat jet which comes with PL-15 integrated. Mirages and F-7's have to go.

I suspect PAF will be moving away from SD-10 no?

Doubt it. FAAZ was based on TOT of the SD-10 tech. So the money was already spent. They can upgrade the seeker and range to get closer to PL-15 specs, and use it like NASAMs and with JF-17's.

 

[Lion]

The mistake that every one make when they look at them.....they consider them in singularity....while wt needs to be done is that they need to be looked at in totality.
When we do that then we understand and get a clear picture where every ac fits in the whole mix.

PG have always has a limited bvr capability so fitting the SD 10 to them makes sense.
Same goes for the rose mirages. In addition there is also talk of converting some of the mirages into EW ac .

I’m going to stop this discussion here because it’s completely off topic to the thread - but no, this is again just “I know better than you” Fluff with buzzwords like “totality of the situation” and “look at the whole mix” and “everyone makes this mistake but not me with my superior knowledge” Bring credible proof or reasoning for claims.
Either way, I’m not going to respond in this thread.