Indian National Congress orner

[Vox Non Dei]

Is it your Daeva Ahura ancestral bias.

You do know which side was slimy deceitful and cheated right?

Leading to the split.

Hint. It was not mine.

Cheers, Doc

God Doc!

Ek hi dil hei kitnee baar jitoge!

 

[Joe Shearer]

God Doc!

Ek hi dil hei kitnee baar jitoge!

He's counting on my being named after an Asura in real life to weaken my resolve.

 

[Nilgiri]

It is. They were an embattled lot. Nilgiri, if he is counted as Indian. We can ask the others.

1) pains me greatly INC could not continue in Nehru-Shastri and Kamaraj trajectory (federal and state)

2) pains me greatly Kamaraj didnt retire by own volition and nature of this ignorance/betrayal by Tamil ppl (germane temperaments of more drastic nature would materialise in Mrs Gandhi w.r.t INC fork in road and splits)

3) pains me greatly that only TN had Kamaraj as great unique gem, when really India would be vastly different place if large northern states had sufficient dose of such folks as well for as long duration as possible.

I hope this clears up my staunch support basis w.r.t INC (to others in this thread, you already know these)...and why I am also "equidistant" now as you describe yourself given what INC has absconded from and squandered since that principled formative time after independence.

 

[Vox Non Dei]

1) pains me greatly INC could not continue in Nehru-Shastri and Kamaraj trajectory (federal and state)

2) pains me greatly Kamaraj didnt retire by own volition and nature of this ignorance/betrayal by Tamil ppl (germane temperaments of more drastic nature would materialise in Mrs Gandhi w.r.t INC fork in road and splits)

3) pains me greatly that only TN had Kamaraj as great unique gem, when really India would be vastly different place if large northern states had sufficient dose of such folks as well for as long duration as possible.

I hope this clears up my staunch support basis w.r.t INC (to others in this thread, you already know these)...and why I am also "equidistant" now as you describe yourself given what INC has absconded from and squandered since that principled formative time after independence.

I personally used to be a pro BJP guy for quite sometime. I am now of the belief that if BJP keeps on going the way it is, it will end up in a situation where Hindus themself will lose any ounce of faith they have in polity of the nation, when BJP fails. It can cause a political winter among Hindus at the very least which will not clear up for a long time.

Put it simply, BJP under Modi is slowly but surely moving towards the too big to fail kind of status, something that should never happen. There should be no political entity that is too big to fail. A credible opposition at the very least is bare minimum. Few terms of being out of power is better.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I personally used to be a pro BJP guy for quite sometime. I am now of the belief that if BJP keeps on going the way it is, it will end up in a situation where Hindus themself will lose any ounce of faith they have in polity of the nation, when BJP fails. It can cause a political winter among Hindus at the very least which will not clear up for a long time.

Put it simply, BJP under Modi is slowly but surely moving towards the too big to fail kind of status, something that should never happen. There should be no political entity that is too big to fail. A credible opposition at the very least is bare minimum. Few terms of being out of power is better.

Too late for that. The damage is done. The precedents have been set.

 

[Nilgiri]

Nilgiri used to be a soft Sanghi. Couched as "purely economics" support of the regime. Macroeconomics with a dash of sociocultural offshore nationalism.

I read some of his writings on the hub recently.

Either he's changed. Seen the light.

Or Modi and gang have hurt his bottom line with their ineptitude.

EIther way, he's neither Congress nor Sanghi. He's Canadian.

CHeers, Doc

First, a happy new year to you and yours doc.

It is partly what you say combined with devils advocate stuff I enjoy, and my own dumb naive understanding of what its all really about back then.

Part of me was hoping a new congress (and other parties) would emerge stronger and better too (big tent + pragmatic oriented) to see off. The whip cracking needed on things after 2014 etc.

I thought it was smaller cycle stuff and would all come out in the wash and quickly....but nope i misjudged just how much a large enough group of Indians love this stuff deeply, and worse for all the wrong reasons that they keep lording over even me and taunting me (so I can only imagine how much worse it is for those that have little recourse of putting them right back in their place).

i.e My own rankling with social conservatism (the severe kind in India it can ill afford) is what put me off, and way these bhakt fanbois lord it over all else in subjects all and sundry, well out of their ken.

These ugly minded people take everything that has made India so weak in the past and present it as some edifying strength for today.

Ignorance is lesser sin than incompetence. Incompetence is a lesser sin than Immorality. But these all rhyme together easily in society.

The immorality seeks immortality by entrenched collectivism. This comes from a dark void and leads to a dark end.

But reality always sets things straight down the road at some point, it is our fate to exist and see the costs and be tested. To be a rock and not to roll.

I am deeply secular when it comes to politics, classical liberal too....a mix of locke, burke and smith. I remember the day Joe stumbled on my first principles in a "wait a second you aren't a sanghi at all" (lol) and exposed my casual forum gaming right then and there.

We Tamils saw the zero sum crap go down in Ceylon....the might makes right chauvinism and now deep scars that will never heal for a very long time.

Expand that to something 100 times bigger? Hell no.

The early guises (lower scale but nasty nonetheless) of this in TN already impacted us Tambrams at great cost, too great a cost for both us, Tamils and larger India....the way we were pitted against each other so easily.

We are all to easy to target, coerce and make examples out of.

Across shores from India, I have been a minority everywhere I have lived....I know exactly what unfettered social conservative collective majoritarianism will be (be it emboldened and imposed by Chinese, Malay or Gora).

In fact Joe has not yet pointed out overtly the irony of Brahmin crossing the seas in our nautical chat....but this is lived experience that has impacted much in my thinking and reflection on India....that would not have happened if I was exact same person but born in whichever agraharam in Tamilakam some centuries ago....the stratified privilege and the great social ill and weakness of such a structure perpetuating misery and backwardness.

There is much I identify with in deep level with Parsis like you. Such heat reaches minorities first. You know it better than anyone else here I venture.

We know the tenuous potential of certain things all too well, no matter how integrated we have become and niceties and social pacts made with larger populations, these can be thrown away in a second push come to shove and the ugliness of primacy and supremacy shows no mercy.

 

[Joe Shearer]

First, a happy new year to you and yours doc.

It is partly what you say combined with devils advocate stuff I enjoy, and my own dumb naive understanding of what its all really about back then.

Part of me was hoping a new congress (and other parties) would emerge stronger and better too (big tent + pragmatic oriented) to see off. The whip cracking needed on things after 2014 etc.

I thought it was smaller cycle stuff and would all come out in the wash and quickly....but nope i misjudged just how much a large enough group of Indians love this stuff deeply, and worse for all the wrong reasons that they keep lording over even me and taunting me (so I can only imagine how much worse it is for those that have little recourse of putting them right back in their place).

i.e My own rankling with social conservatism (the severe kind in India it can ill afford) is what put me off, and way these bhakt fanbois lord it over all else in subjects all and sundry, well out of their ken.

These ugly minded people take everything that has made India so weak in the past and present it as some edifying strength for today.

Ignorance is lesser sin than incompetence. Incompetence is a lesser sin than Immorality. But these all rhyme together easily in society.

The immorality seeks immortality by entrenched collectivism. This comes from a dark void and leads to a dark end.

But reality always sets things straight down the road at some point, it is our fate to exist and see the costs and be tested. To be a rock and not to roll.

I am deeply secular when it comes to politics, classical liberal too....a mix of locke, burke and smith. I remember the day Joe stumbled on my first principles in a "wait a second you aren't a sanghi at all" (lol) and exposed my casual forum gaming right then and there.

We Tamils saw the zero sum crap go down in Ceylon....the might makes right chauvinism and now deep scars that will never heal for a very long time.

Expand that to something 100 times bigger? Hell no.

The early guises (lower scale but nasty nonetheless) of this in TN already impacted us Tambrams at great cost, too great a cost for both us, Tamils and larger India....the way we were pitted against each other so easily.

We are all to easy to target, coerce and make examples out of.

Across shores from India, I have been a minority everywhere I have lived....I know exactly what unfettered social conservative collective majoritarianism will be (be it emboldened and imposed by Chinese, Malay or Gora).

In fact Joe has not yet pointed out overtly the irony of Brahmin crossing the seas in our nautical chat....but this is lived experience that has impacted much in my thinking and reflection on India....that would not have happened if I was exact same person but born in whichever agraharam in Tamilakam some centuries ago....the stratified privilege and the great social ill and weakness of such a structure perpetuating misery and backwardness.

There is much I identify with in deep level with Parsis like you. Such heat reaches minorities first. You know it better than anyone else here I venture.

We know the tenuous potential of certain things all too well, no matter how integrated we have become and niceties and social pacts made with larger populations, these can be thrown away in a second push come to shove and the ugliness of primacy and supremacy shows no mercy.

And if you think, Doc, the Iyers are conservative, come and meet my Iyengars.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I personally used to be a pro BJP guy for quite sometime. I am now of the belief that if BJP keeps on going the way it is, it will end up in a situation where Hindus themself will lose any ounce of faith they have in polity of the nation, when BJP fails. It can cause a political winter among Hindus at the very least which will not clear up for a long time.

Put it simply, BJP under Modi is slowly but surely moving towards the too big to fail kind of status, something that should never happen. There should be no political entity that is too big to fail. A credible opposition at the very least is bare minimum. Few terms of being out of power is better.

I'll quote something, chief, that says it all.

These ugly minded people take everything that has made India so weak in the past and present it as some edifying strength for today.

Ignorance is lesser sin than incompetence. Incompetence is a lesser sin than Immorality. But these all rhyme together easily in society.

The immorality seeks immortality by entrenched collectivism. This comes from a dark void and leads to a dark end.

I rest my case.

 

[Vox Non Dei]

I'll quote something, chief, that says it all.


I rest my case.

In my very humble opinion, neither ignorance, nor incompetence is that big of a sin because none of them scale as much or as fast. In one way, both are self limiting. Its hopelessness and apathy that is the worst problem and they scale FAST and HUGE. It shapes complete society not for now but for a long future as well. In my own experience shaped by engineering, in large things (nations, society, economy, polity) scale is perhaps the single biggest factor to look for.

In our very bipolar society, this is where we are heading. And no, Modi or present form of BJP is not even the worst of all. Quite far from it.

As they say, Abhi to party shuru hui hei.

I do not want this party to reach to its natural conclusion of hopelessness.

What you think of damage is not even a scratch for what may be forthcoming. Even till now, Indians are by and large very very keen on politics and polity of the nation (in one way or the other). We always have been from cities to the rural heartland. What may really happen is a complete apathy and hopelessness in political process itself among practically every person. And that will be real mess which I doubt we can ever clean up.

 

[Nilgiri]

EIther way, he's neither Congress nor Sanghi. He's Canadian.

Just putting my bookmark here.

I mean sure....Canadian. But hope you are not insinuating any core displacement on other things I am by that (incl Indian).

I am a mishmash of an enigma. We can get into my deeper identity matrix a bit later if its pertinent to this subject at hand (INC, secular politics etc)....or another thread elsewhere if more appropriate.

I am much more than just "Canadian".

I owe a great deal to India...I will forever be in its debt.... and do what I can whenever and wherever I can to help it.

 

[Nilgiri]

I suppose this will be INC corner and maybe the ayodhya/bjp thread can maybe be retitled as BJP corner?

I see @Waz already here in this one. We must get other interested worthies interacting on these threads pertaining to their interests and time (as I am partial to secularism for a core constitutional principle and remain very fond of the pre 50s-60s INC era at federal and state level),

Let me tag some: @VCheng @RescueRanger @Jungibaaz (hope he shows up later) @Hyde @Fatman17 et al.

Also hope @niaz shows up later too (guess he hasnt joined forum yet)

@Joe Shearer tag any others you can think of that might like to read and participate in this thread.

 

[Joe Shearer]

In my very humble opinion, neither ignorance, nor incompetence is that big of a sin because none of them scale as much or as fast. In one way, both are self limiting. Its hopelessness and apathy that is the worst problem and they scale FAST and HUGE. It shapes complete society not for now but for a long future as well. In my own experience shaped by engineering, in large things (nations, society, economy, polity) scale is perhaps the single biggest factor to look for.

In our very bipolar society, this is where we are heading. And no, Modi or present form of BJP is not even the worst of all. Quite far from it.

As they say, Abhi to party shuru hui hei.

I do not want this party to reach to its natural conclusion of hopelessness.

What you think of damage is not even a scratch for what may be forthcoming. Even till now, Indians are by and large very very keen on politics and polity of the nation (in one way or the other). We always have been from cities to the rural heartland. What may really happen is a complete apathy and hopelessness in political process itself among practically every person. And that will be real mess which I doubt we can ever clean up.

I agree, if that sets in, that is far worse than anything else. A terminal cancer.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Just putting my bookmark here.

I mean sure....Canadian. But hope you are not insinuating any core displacement on other things I am by that (incl Indian).

I am a mishmash of an enigma. We can get into my deeper identity matrix a bit later if its pertinent to this subject at hand (INC, secular politics etc)....or another thread elsewhere if more appropriate.

I am much more than just "Canadian".

I owe a great deal to India...I will forever be in its debt.... and do what I can whenever and wherever I can to help it.

Don't try explaining, it will be well-nigh impossible to do that, just let things happen at their own natural pace.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I suppose this will be INC corner and maybe the ayodhya/bjp thread can maybe be retitled as BJP corner?

I see @Waz already here in this one. We must get other interested worthies interacting on these threads pertaining to their interests and time (as I am partial to secularism for a core constitutional principle and remain very fond of the pre 50s-60s INC era at federal and state level),

Let me tag some: @VCheng @RescueRanger @Jungibaaz (hope he shows up later) @Hyde @Fatman17 et al.

Also hope @niaz shows up later too (guess he hasnt joined forum yet)

@Joe Shearer tag any others you can think of that might like to read and participate in this thread.

Let it happen in stages. "No hurries, mate".

 

[vsdoc]

I'll propose you on my return, if you will honour us. My accent is on adding women, to give it that diversity, but you will be a very welcome addition. Don't you think so, @Nilgiri?

I hasten to add, I was pulling your leg.

I suspect I might be too much insaan for your genteel insaans.

Yahan sab ab tachyphylactic ho chuke hain.

Cheers, Doc