onlinpunit
Trusted Member
Both are different.
1. j 10 deal negotiation was going on since the days of Musharraf.
2. J 10 is a reality.
HAL LCA Tejas: Updates, News & Discussions
- Thread starter indushek
- Start date
1. j 10 deal negotiation was going on since the days of Musharraf.
2. J 10 is a reality.
Yasser76
Elite Member
This post makes no sense. absolutely none at all. It os blaringly obvious PAF are in the middle of either negotiating it from the report, anyone with any sense whatsoever knows it only becomes a reality when they land, if we went by that criteria half the Indian posts on here would be pointless.
Anyway, Rakesh, Maitya, Fanne, whatever your name is, you can choose to believe what you want, yes, Defence News and PAF chief are wrong, you are right. 2+2 = 5. lets end this as it is like debating a brick wall.
In fact I can fully understand your desire and me too is always asking for proof or source, however as noted already, not even for the J-10CE there was any reporting (officially) from any Chinese site until they suddely were noticed at CAC.
In fact even if again it's me who is probably one of the harshest critics against all these Pakistani claims, already by late-2025 or early-2026 - @maverick
& @Zarvan - the first J-31s will be in Pakistan, I expect exactly the same again. Some day after 2028 almost half a squadron will be seen at SAC ready for delivery and again no official Chinese source will report about it prior to delivery.onlinpunit
Trusted Member
90% your online life you ask others for proof !! Now cope..
onlinpunit
Trusted Member
If J 31 is in mass production then it can easily arrive in PAF colors without any fan fare. My question is about current J 31 Program.In fact I can fully understand your desire and me too is always asking for proof or source, however as noted already, not even for the J-10CE there was any reporting (officially) from any Chinese site until they suddely were noticed at CAC.
In fact even if again it's me who is probably one of the harshest critics against all these Pakistani claims, already by late-2025 or early-2026 - @maverick
Maybe you misunderstood me, sorry for this (or I misunderstand your post?)- the J-31 is surely NOT yet in mass production since at best we know there is a J-31 prototype since last September.
As such, confirmed is at the moment only the J-35 as the PLAN's next generation carrierborne fighter and there are some strong hints - via some blurry images and airshow models being labelled J-31 - that such a type exists. But again it is far from confirmed, far from ready and far from production!
hussain0216
Elite Member
You can't easily just change engine's, it requires serious work and time to alter a plane to accept a different engine, especially if the plane was built with a specific engine in mind.
The first JF17s are heading towards 20 years of service for Pakistan and still Tejas is not really developed, it shows how off the rails this project has gone
hussain0216
Elite Member
Yeah, but India is trying to fish for a Great White shark with a stick and a piece of string
harpy1
Trusted Member
You know what if they hadn't built aircraft carriers nuke subs destroyers Aesa radars cruise missles mbrl bvr missles space rockets satalites helicopters etc
I might be pessimistic
But they have very large military eco system now and money now and in the future so I'm pretty confident both Tejas And Amca will arrive
Or it will be imported Rafales and F35
What you prefer guys to fight against
harpy1
Trusted Member
The reason the j10 came without fanfare and suddenly is simple
This was a emergency purchase and talks to acquire them went on for years back door with china
Ever since the rafale arrived and S400 the Pakistanis have felt vulnerable
They wanted late model block 70 F16; to answer The new Indian inductions
You can't afford Euro birds
China was your solution.
The JF17 have issues people won't admit it but it's budget fighter with with documentated issues from Nigeria and Myanmar reporting airframe cracks weapons computers failing ...etc grounded jets
You needed quick solution they gave you handful of a well established j10 they have hundreds in service
J31. Is brand new just arrived costly and despite Pakistan wanting this I'm not sure you will get it quickly like j10
But we will see
This was a emergency purchase and talks to acquire them went on for years back door with china
Ever since the rafale arrived and S400 the Pakistanis have felt vulnerable
They wanted late model block 70 F16; to answer The new Indian inductions
You can't afford Euro birds
China was your solution.
The JF17 have issues people won't admit it but it's budget fighter with with documentated issues from Nigeria and Myanmar reporting airframe cracks weapons computers failing ...etc grounded jets
You needed quick solution they gave you handful of a well established j10 they have hundreds in service
J31. Is brand new just arrived costly and despite Pakistan wanting this I'm not sure you will get it quickly like j10
But we will see
Yasser76
Elite Member
Everytime you make assumptions, and every time PAF surprises India, do not forget China is more then happy to heavily subsidise weapons to Pakistan
Yasser76
Elite Member
Irony dies. I Posted sources, you never do.....people can make up there own minds....
Yasser76
Elite Member
Mark my words. Tejas will be cancelled by year end.
IAF’s plans hit as Tejas delivery schedule goes for a toss because of GE engine delay
theprint.in
New Delhi: Against a sanctioned strength of 42 fighter squadrons, the Indian Air Force (IAF) currently operates 32, a majority of which is made up of Russian aircraft, either in need of upgrades to match modern warfare requirements or on the verge of retirement.
By the end of 2025, the squadron strength will plummet to mere 29 squadrons. This is because while two of the last remaining MiG 21 Bison squadrons will be phased out, its replacement – the Tejas Mk1 A – will not be coming in time.
Sources in the defence establishment said one of the main reasons for the delay in delivery of the much-needed fighters by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the lack of supply by the General Electric F404-IN20 engines that power the fighters.
https://vdo.ai/contact?utm_medium=video&utm_term=theprint.in&utm_source=vdoai_logo
According to the contract signed between HAL and GE in August 2021, the American firm is supposed to deliver 99 engines starting March to cater to the IAF’s order for 83 LCA MK1A inked earlier that year.
GE is supposed to deliver engines at the rate which HAL is supposed to deliver the aircraft – 16 each financial year, according to the terms of contract. However, it is learnt that GE has failed to deliver even a single engine to the state-run HAL.
Queries sent by ThePrint to the American aircraft engine supplier last week remained unanswered.
The sources said that GE has informed HAL that it would deliver the first two engines by the end of September. However, the IAF is not impressed. If at all GE meets the September deadline, the sources say there are questions about how many more engines will be delivered given what it claims are global “supply chain issues”.
It was in March that the first aircraft of the Tejas Mk-1A series, LA 5033, took to the skies. ThePrint then reported that the delivery schedule was hit by at least four months if not more. It is now revealed that the entire delivery schedule has been hit badly.
The sources said that the first aircraft did not fly with a new engine but with Category B engines. Category B refers to reserve engines which may have been used in the past or those that came in and remained unused as part of an earlier deal with GE for the Tejas series.
While IAF is in a fix, HAL believes that it will be able to stick to the overall delivery schedule if GE delivers. The Indian aerospace manufacturer has set up a new production line in Nashik for LCA Mk-1As, besides the one in Bengaluru which can produce 16 aircraft in a year. Together, the HAL says it can produce 24 aircraft in a year.
However, the IAF remains sceptical because of past experience. The air force had already issued a Request for Proposal (RFP) to the HAL in April for additional 97 LCA Mark 1A fighters.
“What we need is aircraft. MiG 21 Bisons have to go next year and can’t fly anymore. The IAF is trying all it can to shore up numbers. We have put our weight behind the Tejas but actually delivery has to start,” a source in the defence establishment said, pointing out the growth in air strength of Pakistan and China.
Also Read: India to finally get its new stealth frigate ‘Tushil’, crew of about 200 carrying out acceptance trials
The IAF’s dwindling numbers meant that several of its bases where the MiG 21s were based are now empty.
Asked how the IAF was managing empty bases, the sources explained that the area of responsibility for Su-30 MKI squadrons and others has increased.
“The area of responsibility for let’s say a SU-30 MKI squadron has now increased to cover what may have been that of two or three bases of MiG 21s. This is because the aircraft has more endurance and range than a MiG 21,” a source explained.
Asked if this meant that a regular aircraft would be clocking in more flying hours than what it would otherwise normally do, the source replied in affirmation.
More flying hours mean that the wear and tear, besides maintenance of the machines, will be more than in normal circumstances.
The Qatari aircraft will come in with missiles and additional engines. The sources said that these aircraft have nearly 50 percent of their lifespan left and are maintained well by Qatar which now operates the Rafale, the Typhoon and the F-15.
However, these aircraft are not at the same standard as the upgraded Mirage 2000s that the IAF operates.
The sources explained it would be foolish to upgrade them since the cost would be very high and hence could be operated as a separate squadron. Since the cockpit and some other systems on board were different, the pilots would have to undergo certain training to fly them.
While these are all stop gap arrangements, what the IAF is really hoping for is the 114 multi-role fighter aircraft (MRFA), for which they had issued a Request for Proposal (RFI) a few years back.
However, the air force is yet to get clearance from the government to pursue the project and issue a tender. The main contenders for this project are — Rafale, F-15EX, Gripen, and F-21.
The front runner to bag the contract is the French Rafale fighter jets, 36 of which were inducted into the IAF under an emergency procurement in 2016.
According to IAF projections back then, if the 36 Rafales, six squadrons of Tejas and two more squadrons of Su-30 MKI were taken into account, the squadron strength was projected at 27 by 2032 and a mere 19 by 2042.
It was then mentioned that even in the best case scenario, the IAF would not reach its sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons by 2042 even after taking into account the Tejas Mark 2, the indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and 114 MRFA for which the tender is still not out five years later.
That is because starting 2030, the Mirages and the Jaguars, both upgraded, will start getting phased out. Even if all the three futuristic aircraft are inducted as planned, the squadron strength will still only be 37 by 2042. The last time the IAF had 42 squadrons was way back in 2002.
IAF’s plans hit as Tejas delivery schedule goes for a toss because of GE engine delay
IAF’s plans hit as Tejas delivery schedule goes for a toss because of GE engine delay
GE is said to have informed that it will deliver first 2 engines by September end. Even in best case scenario, IAF is unlikely to reach sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons by 2042.
theprint.in
New Delhi: Against a sanctioned strength of 42 fighter squadrons, the Indian Air Force (IAF) currently operates 32, a majority of which is made up of Russian aircraft, either in need of upgrades to match modern warfare requirements or on the verge of retirement.
By the end of 2025, the squadron strength will plummet to mere 29 squadrons. This is because while two of the last remaining MiG 21 Bison squadrons will be phased out, its replacement – the Tejas Mk1 A – will not be coming in time.
Sources in the defence establishment said one of the main reasons for the delay in delivery of the much-needed fighters by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the lack of supply by the General Electric F404-IN20 engines that power the fighters.
https://vdo.ai/contact?utm_medium=video&utm_term=theprint.in&utm_source=vdoai_logo
According to the contract signed between HAL and GE in August 2021, the American firm is supposed to deliver 99 engines starting March to cater to the IAF’s order for 83 LCA MK1A inked earlier that year.
GE is supposed to deliver engines at the rate which HAL is supposed to deliver the aircraft – 16 each financial year, according to the terms of contract. However, it is learnt that GE has failed to deliver even a single engine to the state-run HAL.
Queries sent by ThePrint to the American aircraft engine supplier last week remained unanswered.
The sources said that GE has informed HAL that it would deliver the first two engines by the end of September. However, the IAF is not impressed. If at all GE meets the September deadline, the sources say there are questions about how many more engines will be delivered given what it claims are global “supply chain issues”.
It was in March that the first aircraft of the Tejas Mk-1A series, LA 5033, took to the skies. ThePrint then reported that the delivery schedule was hit by at least four months if not more. It is now revealed that the entire delivery schedule has been hit badly.
The sources said that the first aircraft did not fly with a new engine but with Category B engines. Category B refers to reserve engines which may have been used in the past or those that came in and remained unused as part of an earlier deal with GE for the Tejas series.
While IAF is in a fix, HAL believes that it will be able to stick to the overall delivery schedule if GE delivers. The Indian aerospace manufacturer has set up a new production line in Nashik for LCA Mk-1As, besides the one in Bengaluru which can produce 16 aircraft in a year. Together, the HAL says it can produce 24 aircraft in a year.
However, the IAF remains sceptical because of past experience. The air force had already issued a Request for Proposal (RFP) to the HAL in April for additional 97 LCA Mark 1A fighters.
“What we need is aircraft. MiG 21 Bisons have to go next year and can’t fly anymore. The IAF is trying all it can to shore up numbers. We have put our weight behind the Tejas but actually delivery has to start,” a source in the defence establishment said, pointing out the growth in air strength of Pakistan and China.
Also Read: India to finally get its new stealth frigate ‘Tushil’, crew of about 200 carrying out acceptance trials
Forced to fly more, more tear & wear
Even though there are two squadrons of MiG 21 Bisons, the actual numbers are very few. And hence, the IAF has moved the Squadron deployed in Suratgarh to Nal air base near Bikaner, which houses the other remaining one.The IAF’s dwindling numbers meant that several of its bases where the MiG 21s were based are now empty.
Asked how the IAF was managing empty bases, the sources explained that the area of responsibility for Su-30 MKI squadrons and others has increased.
“The area of responsibility for let’s say a SU-30 MKI squadron has now increased to cover what may have been that of two or three bases of MiG 21s. This is because the aircraft has more endurance and range than a MiG 21,” a source explained.
Asked if this meant that a regular aircraft would be clocking in more flying hours than what it would otherwise normally do, the source replied in affirmation.
More flying hours mean that the wear and tear, besides maintenance of the machines, will be more than in normal circumstances.
Qatar’s Mirages & MRFA
To arrest the decline in strength, the IAF is in the middle of negotiations with the Qatari Air Force for 12 used Mirage 2000 fighters.The Qatari aircraft will come in with missiles and additional engines. The sources said that these aircraft have nearly 50 percent of their lifespan left and are maintained well by Qatar which now operates the Rafale, the Typhoon and the F-15.
However, these aircraft are not at the same standard as the upgraded Mirage 2000s that the IAF operates.
The sources explained it would be foolish to upgrade them since the cost would be very high and hence could be operated as a separate squadron. Since the cockpit and some other systems on board were different, the pilots would have to undergo certain training to fly them.
While these are all stop gap arrangements, what the IAF is really hoping for is the 114 multi-role fighter aircraft (MRFA), for which they had issued a Request for Proposal (RFI) a few years back.
However, the air force is yet to get clearance from the government to pursue the project and issue a tender. The main contenders for this project are — Rafale, F-15EX, Gripen, and F-21.
The front runner to bag the contract is the French Rafale fighter jets, 36 of which were inducted into the IAF under an emergency procurement in 2016.
IAF will not hit 42 Squadron mark even by 2042
ThePrint had reported in 2019 that the IAF hit by ageing fleet, low serviceability and slow pace by HAL, is staring at an alarming fall in its muscle.According to IAF projections back then, if the 36 Rafales, six squadrons of Tejas and two more squadrons of Su-30 MKI were taken into account, the squadron strength was projected at 27 by 2032 and a mere 19 by 2042.
It was then mentioned that even in the best case scenario, the IAF would not reach its sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons by 2042 even after taking into account the Tejas Mark 2, the indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and 114 MRFA for which the tender is still not out five years later.
That is because starting 2030, the Mirages and the Jaguars, both upgraded, will start getting phased out. Even if all the three futuristic aircraft are inducted as planned, the squadron strength will still only be 37 by 2042. The last time the IAF had 42 squadrons was way back in 2002.
Yasser76
Elite Member
"Atmanirbharta" Cannot Be At Cost Of Nation's Defence: Air Force Vice Chief
www.ndtv.com
New Delhi:
Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Air Marshal A P Singh, on Friday said 'atmanirbharata' is "not just a buzzword", it is something that all stakeholders need to put their heart and soul into, even as he underlined that this 'atmanirbharta' cannot be at the cost of nation's defence.
In his address at a CAPS seminar here, he asserted that "nation's defence comes first and foremost".
The VCAS said defending a nation is "everybody's job and not just the job of persons in uniform".
https://vdo.ai/contact?utm_medium=video&utm_term=ndtv.com&utm_source=vdoai_logo
Pitching for 'atmanirbharta' in defence, he said the DRDO, private industries and others can bolster armed forces' capabilities in radars, communications and a plethora of other things.
'Atmanirbharata' is "not just a buzzword", it is something that all stakeholders need to put their heart and soul into, and make sure technologies and weapons are developed and manufactured in India, "so that we are not relying on an outside agency who could change its alliance or stop flow of weapons to our country" when the time comes, he said.
Air Marshal Singh emphasised that the "biggest lesson that we have learned from today's geopolitics is to be self-reliant".
As they say, there is no permanent enemy or permanent friend, there is only permanent interest, he said.
In his address, the VCAS pitched for fostering greater 'atmanirbharta' but with a rider.
"Atmanirbharta is what we are riding on. Majority of contracts are with Indian partners, Indian industry... But, this atmanirbharta cannot be at the cost of nation's defence. Nation's defence comes first and foremost," he said.
"And, if the IAF and Indian forces have to ride on this atmanirbharta, it is only possible if everyone, from DRDO to DPSUs to the private industry, hold our hands and take us on that path. And, don't let us deviate from that path. Because, when it comes to national defence, there will be compulsions to deviate from that path in case we do not get the things that we need, or the kind of systems or weaponry required to survive in today's world," the air marshal said.
He urged that "we all have to work in unison" and at a "much, much faster pace".
However, the VCAS flagged that "the rate at which we are getting our equipment at the moment, is too low" and there was a need to increase it. "When we look at our adversaries, the rate at which they are growing, the rate at which they are imbibing these technologies and still growing in numbers... we have a long gap to catch up with and this gap is widening further. This is something that we need to look at as a whole and we need to find a solution to this gap that is building," he said.
During the seminar exhibition on air and missile defence hosted by the think-tank at Subroto Park here, many speakers also spoke about various lessons from ongoing conflicts in the world.
The VCAS in his address also said the ongoing Russia-Ukraine conflict has demonstrated the integration of multiple forces in domains of air, land, sea, cyber, information and space, and how they are "united" to achieve the goal.
"One thing is certain, if we need to do something, we need to stay... in the game, we need to modernise, we need to continue to grow, continue to innovate and we need to continue being ahead of the curve. Otherwise, we lag behind and we are just chasing," Air Marshal Singh said.
Technological advancements, the rapid pace that is being seen in people's normal life, has also "infused themselves into our weaponry, defence systems". Today, what was unthinkable or unimaginable few years back, is a reality, he said, adding, impact on the defence forces, on the warfighting, has made it clear that "we need to be agile and flexible in our thoughts as well as actions".
The ongoing conflicts that has been alluded about, the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the multi-domain battlespace. It is a "classic example of what is going on today and what we are likely to face in our future conflicts", the Vice Chief of the Air Staff (VCAS) said.
"This conflict has also demonstrated the integration of multiple forces in domains of air, land, sea, cyber, information, space and how they are united to achieve the goal. I am sure everyone present here, including my friends from other services will agree that the air domain has clearly emerged as a singular trans-domain link and strong force across domains, a strong method for cross-domain application of force. It is not just an enabler, it has become a force multiplier," he asserted.
The VCAS also referred to the Israel-Hamas war to underline the importance of air domain.
Even in the urban warfare construct that is seen in Israel-Hamas war, the air domain has been used extensively, whether it is utilising those fighter aircraft with precision weapons or the formidable Iron Dome (air defence) system or utilising those low-cost rockets and loiter munitions by Hamas in challenging that very formidable and very costly system itself, he said.
The VCAS also said that in this highly dense battlespace, "we need to put in place plans to have optimal and innovative utilisation of available resources, and at the same we need to ensure we are improving our systems through upgrade or procurement".
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Keeping an eye on the future, the IAF has operationalised a dedicated Weapon Systems (WS) Branch and a sub-branch of this is going to be dedicatedly responsible for surface-to-air guided weapons, he added.
"Atmanirbharta" Cannot Be At Cost Of Nation's Defence: Air Force Vice Chief
Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Air Marshal A P Singh, on Friday said 'atmanirbharata' is "not just a buzzword", it is something that all stakeholders need to put their heart and soul into.
www.ndtv.com
New Delhi:
Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Air Marshal A P Singh, on Friday said 'atmanirbharata' is "not just a buzzword", it is something that all stakeholders need to put their heart and soul into, even as he underlined that this 'atmanirbharta' cannot be at the cost of nation's defence.
In his address at a CAPS seminar here, he asserted that "nation's defence comes first and foremost".
The VCAS said defending a nation is "everybody's job and not just the job of persons in uniform".
https://vdo.ai/contact?utm_medium=video&utm_term=ndtv.com&utm_source=vdoai_logo
Pitching for 'atmanirbharta' in defence, he said the DRDO, private industries and others can bolster armed forces' capabilities in radars, communications and a plethora of other things.
'Atmanirbharata' is "not just a buzzword", it is something that all stakeholders need to put their heart and soul into, and make sure technologies and weapons are developed and manufactured in India, "so that we are not relying on an outside agency who could change its alliance or stop flow of weapons to our country" when the time comes, he said.
Air Marshal Singh emphasised that the "biggest lesson that we have learned from today's geopolitics is to be self-reliant".
As they say, there is no permanent enemy or permanent friend, there is only permanent interest, he said.
In his address, the VCAS pitched for fostering greater 'atmanirbharta' but with a rider.
"Atmanirbharta is what we are riding on. Majority of contracts are with Indian partners, Indian industry... But, this atmanirbharta cannot be at the cost of nation's defence. Nation's defence comes first and foremost," he said.
"And, if the IAF and Indian forces have to ride on this atmanirbharta, it is only possible if everyone, from DRDO to DPSUs to the private industry, hold our hands and take us on that path. And, don't let us deviate from that path. Because, when it comes to national defence, there will be compulsions to deviate from that path in case we do not get the things that we need, or the kind of systems or weaponry required to survive in today's world," the air marshal said.
He urged that "we all have to work in unison" and at a "much, much faster pace".
However, the VCAS flagged that "the rate at which we are getting our equipment at the moment, is too low" and there was a need to increase it. "When we look at our adversaries, the rate at which they are growing, the rate at which they are imbibing these technologies and still growing in numbers... we have a long gap to catch up with and this gap is widening further. This is something that we need to look at as a whole and we need to find a solution to this gap that is building," he said.
During the seminar exhibition on air and missile defence hosted by the think-tank at Subroto Park here, many speakers also spoke about various lessons from ongoing conflicts in the world.
The VCAS in his address also said the ongoing Russia-Ukraine conflict has demonstrated the integration of multiple forces in domains of air, land, sea, cyber, information and space, and how they are "united" to achieve the goal.
"One thing is certain, if we need to do something, we need to stay... in the game, we need to modernise, we need to continue to grow, continue to innovate and we need to continue being ahead of the curve. Otherwise, we lag behind and we are just chasing," Air Marshal Singh said.
Technological advancements, the rapid pace that is being seen in people's normal life, has also "infused themselves into our weaponry, defence systems". Today, what was unthinkable or unimaginable few years back, is a reality, he said, adding, impact on the defence forces, on the warfighting, has made it clear that "we need to be agile and flexible in our thoughts as well as actions".
The ongoing conflicts that has been alluded about, the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the multi-domain battlespace. It is a "classic example of what is going on today and what we are likely to face in our future conflicts", the Vice Chief of the Air Staff (VCAS) said.
"This conflict has also demonstrated the integration of multiple forces in domains of air, land, sea, cyber, information, space and how they are united to achieve the goal. I am sure everyone present here, including my friends from other services will agree that the air domain has clearly emerged as a singular trans-domain link and strong force across domains, a strong method for cross-domain application of force. It is not just an enabler, it has become a force multiplier," he asserted.
The VCAS also referred to the Israel-Hamas war to underline the importance of air domain.
Even in the urban warfare construct that is seen in Israel-Hamas war, the air domain has been used extensively, whether it is utilising those fighter aircraft with precision weapons or the formidable Iron Dome (air defence) system or utilising those low-cost rockets and loiter munitions by Hamas in challenging that very formidable and very costly system itself, he said.
The VCAS also said that in this highly dense battlespace, "we need to put in place plans to have optimal and innovative utilisation of available resources, and at the same we need to ensure we are improving our systems through upgrade or procurement".
Promoted
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Keeping an eye on the future, the IAF has operationalised a dedicated Weapon Systems (WS) Branch and a sub-branch of this is going to be dedicatedly responsible for surface-to-air guided weapons, he added.
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