Israel’s Genocide in Gaza | 2023- till present

[VCheng]

Whatever that is happening now is the results of our own actions ie the Muslim nations. Speaking to the common people will give a great understanding on how people think, the mentality is atleast 100 years behind the western world, in terms of seeking education, working hard, unity, technology etc.

The biggest issue here remains the basic schism within Islam itself, and that places the Palestinians in a very poor geopolitical position.

It is clear that Iranian support to them is not enough to achieve any lasting gains, and much of the remaining countries do not wish to support what they see as the thin edge of the wedge of wider Iranian influence in the region. Blaming any outside players is utterly dishonest and pointless.

And here we are, and likely to remain here, sadly.

 

[Unknowntruth]

It was the standard divide and conquer approach of the European colonialists.

They egged on the Arabs to 'liberate' themselves and rule their own lands as Arabs. Then, when the Turks were defeated, the Europeans divided the Arabs into Syrians and Jordanians and Saudis and Kuwaitis and ....

They did to the Arabs what the Americans later did to Afghan collaborators, i.e. stab them in the back after using them for their own purposes.

Let’s ignore national movements like The Young Turks that helped the Ottoman Empire Fall. Yes, some Arabs had a hand in the fall of Ottoman Empire but many also fought with the Ottoman Empire.

There were also national movements across the Ottoman Empire from Balkans, North Africa, etc

Many factors were at play that caused the fall of Ottomans like failure to modernize. European states were already under an Industrial Revolution while the Ottoman Empire was mostly agrarian.

It picked the wrong side during world war 1. While other countries had modern armies, Ottoman army was ill equipped and under trained. It failed to keep up with military and scientific developments across Europe. It failed to educate its population where a large majority of its citizens were uneducated and lands underdeveloped.

Solely blaming Arabs for the decaying corpse of the Ottoman Empire is foolish.

 

[Unknowntruth]

The biggest issue here remains the basic schism within Islam itself, and that places the Palestinians in a very poor geopolitical position.

It is clear that Iranian support to them is not enough to achieve any lasting gains, and much of the remaining countries do not wish to support what they see as the thin edge of the wedge of wider Iranian influence in the region. Blaming any outside players is utterly dishonest and pointless.

And here we are, and likely to remain here, sadly.

Let’s not get carried away. Palestinians took help because of lack of help from other Muslim or Arab backing. Trying to pin this on Iranian support is false. The truth of the matter is that aside from Iran/Yemen, the rest of the Muslim world were not willing to do anything except some empty words.

Why do you love to deflect blame from what you call “outside” players? Can’t criticize the west, do they have your family hostage ? Or do you just love defending colonizing killer machines?

You act like before Iranian support, Israel was still not building illegal settlements , killing people , stealing land, building roadblocks, practicing apartheid, allowing settler attacks with IDF backing, etc

All of this was not happening, right? It just magically started when Iran become involved to a small degree.

 

[Meengla]

Let’s not get carried away. Palestinians took help because of lack of help from other Muslim or Arab backing. Trying to pin this on Iranian support is false. The truth of the matter is that aside from Iran/Yemen, the rest of the Muslim world were not willing to do anything except some empty words.

Why do you love to deflect blame from what you call “outside” players? Can’t criticize the west, do they have your family hostage ? Or do you just love defending colonizing killer machines?

You act like before Iranian support, Israel was still not building illegal settlements , killing people , stealing land, building roadblocks, practicing apartheid, allowing settler attacks with IDF backing, etc

All of this was not happening, right? It just magically started when Iran become involved to a small degree.

You are right in your post but wrong to argue with a certifiable xxxx, well, I won't say the words. I am at peace since having put him and a few others in my Ignore list.

 

[VCheng]

Palestinians took help because of lack of help from other Muslim or Arab backing. Trying to pin this on Iranian support is false. The truth of the matter is that aside from Iran/Yemen, the rest of the Muslim world were not willing to do anything except some empty words.

You are the one being emtional here, since all I have pointed out is the likelihood that Palestinians will not make much headway in resolving their unfortunate situation unless both major factions within Islam itself agree to support them, that is all.

 

[Unknowntruth]

You are the one being emtional here, since all I have pointed out is the Palestinians will not make much headway in resolving their unfortunate situation unless both major factions within Islam itself agree to support them, that is all.

I’m not being “emotional”

I agree, all Muslims need to work together. I just highly disagree on blaming Iran when the other spineless Muslim world long before Iran got involved were sending empty words.

Hell, some countries like UAE, Bahrain, Morocco, etc are not even hiding they are Zionist stooges.

Trying to blame Iran is ignoring the realities of what has and continues to happen. I will not let these cowards try to deflect blame for their own cowardice.

 

[Developereo]

It is wrong to blame 'the Arabs

I wasn't blaming anybody; simply pointing out that the Arabs got played by the Europeans.

I have not been convinced that the creation of Israel in the Middle East was some carefully planned long term Western strategy

It was entirely well planned -- by the Zionists, not the Christian West. The Zionists started the modern Aliyah in the 1880s with the explicit aim of establishing Israel, and then manipulated Western governments to make it happen. Initially, the Zionists were almost exclusively Jewish but they saw in certain Christian beliefs, especially the Rapture prophecy, a useful tool which they promoted and turned these groups into powerful allies.

There was also an element of antisemitism, as you mentioned, that saw Israel as a way to remove Jews from their neighborhood and send them far away.

The Zionists were happy to get all the help they could get, regardless of the other people's motives. They were using the philosophy, as Den Xiaoping would famously say in later years, that it doesn't matter if the cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice.

Solely blaming Arabs for the decaying corpse of the Ottoman Empire is foolish.

I agree the Ottoman Empire was a rotting shell of an empire already before the Arab independence. I wasn't blaming anybody. Simply pointing out that the Europeans used divide and conquer.

 

[VCheng]

I agree, all Muslims need to work together. I just highly disagree on blaming Iran when the other spineless Muslim world long before Iran got involved were sending empty words.

I am not blaming Iran for anything.

All I am pointing out is that Iran alone cannot provide enough help to the Palestinians on its own, and that the other major faction of Muslim countries will need to get involved for anything tangible to be achieved.

Why they choose not to help is a question for them to answer, and that is why blaming others is utterly pointless.

 

[Unknowntruth]

It is clear that Iranian support to them is not enough to achieve any lasting gains, and much of the remaining countries do not wish to support what they see as the thin edge of the wedge of wider Iranian influence in the region. Blaming any outside players is utterly dishonest and pointless.

I am not blaming Iran for anything.

All I am pointing out is that Iran alone cannot provide enough help to the Palestinians on its own, and that the other major faction of Muslim countries will need to get involved for anything tangible to be achieved.

Why they choose not to help is a question for them to answer, and that is why blaming others is utterly pointless.

I agree, Iran alone cannot provide enough help. Still, it did much more than the rest of the Muslim world.

You said others did not want to support because they see wider Iranian influence. Let’s not try to entertain those claims coming from spineless stooges who only say this to deflect their own cowardice. Before Iran got involved, they were still the same spineless cowards and some like UAE are now openly showing they are Zionist stooges.

We also cannot ignore what outside players are doing. They all play a part in all of this from Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Libya, etc

 

[VCheng]

You said others did not want to support because they see wider Iranian influence.

Incomplete quote. This is what I said: "much of the remaining countries do not wish to support what they see as the thin edge of the wedge of wider Iranian influence in the region".

 

[agidest]

I know, I know that Palestine and the Arab world was probably better off and more peaceful under the Ottoman Empire then now but who could have known what was going to happen once the Ottoman Empire was removed? The West too was destroyed and the Jews were suffering in Europe around World War One.

Palestine? Yes

Arab world? No. GCC is infinitely better off now than it was under the Ottomans and relative to Turks now. Their society is more prosperous, more peaceful, and they have become global hubs for human capital and technology.

Let’s ignore national movements like The Young Turks that helped the Ottoman Empire Fall. Yes, some Arabs had a hand in the fall of Ottoman Empire but many also fought with the Ottoman Empire.

There were also national movements across the Ottoman Empire from Balkans, North Africa, etc

Many factors were at play that caused the fall of Ottomans like failure to modernize. European states were already under an Industrial Revolution while the Ottoman Empire was mostly agrarian.

It picked the wrong side during world war 1. While other countries had modern armies, Ottoman army was ill equipped and under trained. It failed to keep up with military and scientific developments across Europe. It failed to educate its population where a large majority of its citizens were uneducated and lands underdeveloped.

Solely blaming Arabs for the decaying corpse of the Ottoman Empire is foolish.

There is a question by some not about decay of Ottoman's but rather whether the Arab's should have even desired becoming independent. For some people (Turks for obvious reasons, some Pakistanis for unclear reasons) try to show it as 'backstabbing' though the reality is that regardless of how good or bad the Ottoman's were, Arab desire for self-rule is inherently a good thing.

 

[Meengla]

It was entirely well planned -- by the Zionists, not the Christian West. The Zionists started the modern Aliyah in the 1880s with the explicit aim of establishing Israel, and then manipulated Western governments to make it happen. Initially, the Zionists were almost exclusively Jewish but they saw in certain Christian beliefs, especially the Rapture prophecy, a useful tool which they promoted and turned these groups into powerful allies.
There was also an element of antisemitism, as you mentioned, that saw Israel as a way to remove Jews from their neighborhood and send them far away.

Spot on. Your post reflects my understanding of the 'Western' role in Israel. As far as the Middle East is concerned: There is no united 'West'. There is just America which can't alone be the 'West'. And in America it is just the AIPAC and the Military Industrial Complex, along with the stupid Evangelical Christians in America which form the bedrock of the Israel's very existence. And they can be countered and neutralized using political means and thus I have been advocating 'smart politics' for many months in America, and from what I have seen, the pro Palestinian groups in America are reaching out to the recently affected communities like the Latinos to form political alliances. Smart move!! A tad late because all that should have been done leading to the 2024 elections but better late than never.

Also, I know that Netanyahu and his stooges in America are going to counter the new political alignments tooth and nail because they, rightly, see as the biggest threat to Israel BUT there are the youths, the liberals, the progressives, the isolationists in MAGA, the visible and the gender minorities, the labor unions, the Arab/Muslim voices, the progressive Jews who are inevitably going to turn the tide.

 

[Unknowntruth]

Incomplete quote. This is what I said: "much of the remaining countries do not wish to support what they see as the thin edge of the wedge of wider Iranian influence in the region".

I quoted it above just summarized it below. My point still stands as they are only using Iran to deflect from their own cowardice. You also didn’t reply to any of the other comments.

 

[Meengla]

Palestine? Yes

Arab world? No. GCC is infinitely better off now than it was under the Ottomans and relative to Turks now. Their society is more prosperous, more peaceful, and they have become global hubs for human capital and technology.

You are right. I should have been a bit more careful in differentiating between the Palestinians and the GCC Arabs.
However, it is not a trivial matter that the GCC Arabs, while they were under the colonial Turks then, are now under the thumb of a far worse colonial thumb, if they only know that. The recent gains and prosperity in the GCC is extremely vulnerable should they even try not to please the interests of remote power and their dagger pointed to their necks. At least the Turks shared the religion and geography!

 

[VCheng]

I quoted it above just summarized it below. My point still stands as they are only using Iran to deflect from their own cowardice. You also didn’t reply to any of the other comments.

There is no concept of cowardice or bravery in international geopolitics.

From my point of view, Iran is doing whatever it is doing in pursuit of its national interests, just the same as other countries who may choose to support or not support anything according to their own respective national interests.

And all countries are equally entitled to do that.