TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[MMM-E]

Turkish Technologies on KAAN


KAAN used the 5th generation main management Computers and real-time operating system with integrated modular architecture developed by TÜBİTAK BİLGEM



COCKPİT ... except Ejection Seat full of Turkish technology


Aselsan AESA Radar


Aselsan KARAT IRST


Aselsan TOYGUN EOTS


Aselsan YILDIRIM-300 DIRCM


Canopy from VOLO


Landing Gears from TAAC


Aselsan TULGAR HMDS


TR-MOTOR 35..000 lbf turbofan Engine .... under development



Only
Ejection Seat from The UK ( Martin-Baker MK4 )
Engine from USA ( GE F-110-129 )

Both of these systems will be localized by the Turkish defense companies in coming years

 

[MMM-E]

Speaking of HMDs, I do find Kaan's design decision regarding all-round awareness curious, as afaik there's no plans for implementing EODAS like F-35 and J-20, but rather Su-57 style EOTS+MAWS+DIRCM, which doesn't allow HMDs to be utlilized to the fullest in enabling the pilot to have 360 see-through vision through the airfram e.

KAAN has 4 AESA Radars + IRST + EOTS + HMDS with AI-enhanced battlefield awareness

All these integrated Systems allows the Pilot 360° situational awareness


and 40kw powerfull GaN AESA Radar and 200 km GOKHAN ramjet powered long range Air to Air Missile will give first look , first fire , first kill capability to KAAN

A concept focused on BVR Combat
See without being seen and shoot without being hit

 

[MMM-E]

btw KAAN gets full data-to-decision (D2D) capability for multi-layered distributed team of diverse manned aircraft working in concert with unmanned types ( KAAN , ANKA-3/4, KIZILELMA )

for example
X Country buys F-35 ... but no any unmanned stealth Fighter Jet to operate together with the F-35

on the other hand
Turkish Air Force will use multi-layered distributed team


1 F-35 vs 1 KAAN + 1 ANKA-3 + 1 KIZILELMA or ANKA-4

 

[Harbyharb]

KAAN has 4 AESA Radars + IRST + EOTS + HMDS with AI-enhanced battlefield awareness

All these integrated Systems allows the Pilot 360° situational awareness


and 40kw powerfull GaN AESA Radar and 200 km GOKHAN ramjet powered long range Air to Air Missile will give first look , first fire , first kill capability to KAAN

A concept focused on BVR Combat
See without being seen and shoot without being hit

I am aware of it. Peripheral radar coverage concept is nothing new, going as far back as the Su-27M project in the 90s.

While obviously technological limitation and doctrinal differences exists, generally speaking EODAS based awareness suite is more flexible and capable than peripheral radar coverage. Allow me to explain.

EODAS, or Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System, integrates the functions of IR, UV, and TV band apertures that also fulfills the function of IRST and MAWS. This not only means the pilot wearing HMD can "see through the fuselage" as AR function for the HMD can display EO images of the corresponding aperture distrubuted around the fuselage, this also allows the jet to gain 360 IR and UV awareness, from engine exhausts to missile trail, to the subtle heat signature generated by airframes and missiles experiencing air friction at ranges between 20-60km given the environmental condition - this is often enough to generate a valid firing solution even against VLO targets like a peer stealth fighter, hence why advanced missiles like AIM-120D, AIM-9X, PL-15, and PL-10 have "over-the-shoulder" firing ability, as they can be slaved directly by EODAS via datalink. What's more, the entire system is entirely passive, as in it doesn't generate any electronic signature for enemy ELINT to pick up, which is very important in a peer to peer environment.

Peripheral AESA radar coverage is most notably employed by the Su-57 to make up for the shortcomings that Russia have in advanced EO systems and to suit its needs to patrol large, unpopulated and undefended airspace, that the peripheral radars operating in L or S bands, while not likely to achieve valid firing solutions of their own, is enough to act as early warning and long range survaillence, and in VKS' vision, Su-57 would act as (relatively) high-survivability awareness nodes, directing conventional platforms like Su-35S as well as future platforms like S-70 Okhotnik drones. This have several weaknesses, 1. obviously you have less systems integration, as you still need IRST and MAWS 2. you are more vulnerable to ELINT, as for radars, you need to send radio waves to receive it, and against most peer platforms, if you can see them, they can definetly see you 3. Your HMD is only responsible for cueing for EOTS and IRST, and does not provide 360 degrees vision awareness for the pilot.

Again, this is all very much subject to change as TAI Kaan continues to evolve.

 

[IceCold]

Congratulations to the Turkish people for achieving this milestone.

 

[LegionnairE]

@Deino

What's your take on the maiden flight? Was it worth the wait?

 

[LegionnairE]

A personal and potentially very unpopular first take on the TAI Kaan.

From public TAI information, the Kaan measures at 21x14x6 in terms of length, width, height parameters, which makes it even larger than the J-20 as the largest 5th gen made to-date. But curiously the MTOW figure for the jet remained at 28 tonnes, whereas a tacticaljet of this scale, experience wise should be around 35-38 tonnes. This is highly unusual, given Turkey clearly have deep-strike demands for this fighter, requiring it to have long operational range and able to carry 1000 lb level A2G armament. Either this MTOW figure is only for the demonstrator, or there might be some serious structural issues still yet to be solved.

Given the immense wingspan, modest wing sweep angle, and wide fuselage design, in terms of flight performance, the TAI Kaan should be somewhere between the F-35 and F-22 in terms of favored mach zone, which is collaborated by the presentation slides outlining Kaan's supercruise ability by TAI.

There are other lesser, room for improvement like lack of jagged paneling for the fuselage, EOTS not installed, very large actuator bulges for flapperons presenting stealth flaws and outlining potential component weakness, but those are infintessimal compared to the achievement that is putting a demonstrator in the air that can be improved on over time.

Wrong silhouette painted on the demonstrator btw. Get with the program PR team!View attachment 21330

MTOW figures were highly discussed and I'm sure those figures will improve but you're right about those bulges, I don't know why they couldn't be moved inside the fuselage and actuate the flaperons through a shaft, seems like a simple fix.

I also want a diverterless air inlet like the F35, I'd like to know the reason why they decided against it.

 

[JamD]

MTOW figures were highly discussed and I'm sure those figures will improve but you're right about those bulges, I don't know why they couldn't be moved inside the fuselage and actuate the flaperons through a shaft, seems like a simple fix.

This was P0 modified into a flight worthy aircraft in an absolute rush so those fairings are nothing too strange. Expect the next "fresh" prototype to have lots of improvements.

I also want a diverterless air inlet like the F35, I'd like to know the reason why they decided against it.

I don't know what the cost benefit analysis is, but I don't think a DSI is being considered. Stealthy duct design is challenging on its own, to add a DSI to it if it doesn't add that much benefit doesn't make sense IMHO. RAM treatments may be sufficient for a splitter instead of a complicated DSI design.

 

[LegionnairE]

This was P0 modified into a flight worthy aircraft in an absolute rush so those fairings are nothing too strange. Expect the next "fresh" prototype to have lots of improvements.


I don't know what the cost benefit analysis is, but I don't think a DSI is being considered. Stealthy duct design is challenging on its own, to add a DSI to it if it doesn't add that much benefit doesn't make sense IMHO. RAM treatments may be sufficient for a splitter instead of a complicated DSI design.

We took a very ambitious, very maximalist approach with TFX. I want that vision to be realized. No cutting corners, no cost saving measures

Most important of all. I want this plane %100 Turkish. No selling half of TAI to Qataris. No bullshit.

We didn't come all this way to be bought.

 

[Harbyharb]

I don't know what the cost benefit analysis is, but I don't think a DSI is being considered. Stealthy duct design is challenging on its own, to add a DSI to it if it doesn't add that much benefit doesn't make sense IMHO. RAM treatments may be sufficient for a splitter instead of a complicated DSI design.

A DSI intake compared to adjustable Caret intake have overwhelming advantages in the following:
Lifecycle cost; not just upfront construction, but also maintenance. The elimination of mechanically actuated component in a confined section greatly cuts needed resources and man hours to service the component.
Weight reduction; again, the utter lack of moving component close to the nose extremity not only increases payload and/or performance, but also reduces the demands for airfoil trimming which combined can net a significant increase in performance
Stealth; obviously you no longer have 2 massive angular reflector pointing dead front between the intake and the fuselage to avoid the boundary layer.

DSI is not perfect, it has disadvantages. Since it cannot alter its geometry to adapt to variable shockwave forms in supersonic range, usually in speed ranges beyond mach 1.6 the DSI intake would fall behind other options in air flow efficiency, thus aircraft with DSI intakes are usually capped below mach 1.8.

Given Kaan’s design choice to favor high subsonic and transonic range, with limited super-cruise demand between mach 1.3 to 1.5 , DSI intake is a good fit. Although DSI intakes are more difficult to engineer given its complex geometry, so that could be the hurdle for Turkey since it does not have its own supersonic wind tunnel complex and likely outsourced such tests overseas.

 

[JamD]

A DSI intake compared to adjustable Caret intake have overwhelming advantages in the following:
Lifecycle cost; not just upfront construction, but also maintenance. The elimination of mechanically actuated component in a confined section greatly cuts needed resources and man hours to service the component.
Weight reduction; again, the utter lack of moving component close to the nose extremity not only increases payload and/or performance, but also reduces the demands for airfoil trimming which combined can net a significant increase in performance
Stealth; obviously you no longer have 2 massive angular reflector pointing dead front between the intake and the fuselage to avoid the boundary layer.

DSI is not perfect, it has disadvantages. Since it cannot alter its geometry to adapt to variable shockwave forms in supersonic range, usually in speed ranges beyond mach 1.6 the DSI intake would fall behind other options in air flow efficiency, thus aircraft with DSI intakes are usually capped below mach 1.8.

Given Kaan’s design choice to favor high subsonic and transonic range, with limited super-cruise demand between mach 1.3 to 1.5 , DSI intake is a good fit. Although DSI intakes are more difficult to engineer given its complex geometry, so that could be the hurdle for Turkey since it does not have its own supersonic wind tunnel complex and likely outsourced such tests overseas.

While you have raised valid points I would raise two counterarguments:
1. F22.
2. Kaans maximum Mach target is 2. Obviously this target isn't being met right now but this is the target. I don't know how feasible that 2 is with DSI.

I don't know what pros and cons the aerodynamics team have in front of them. But I know DSI wasn't something in internal discussions. But there's always change and who knows what we might see in the future.

I don't think windtunnel is a limitation. TA is building many of their own and have bought time on tunnels all over the world. The wind tunnel effort has been massive. No reason to think that they don't have access to supersonic wind tunnels - they obviously did.

 

[LegionnairE]

While you have raised valid points I would raise two counterarguments:
1. F22.
2. Kaans maximum Mach target is 2. Obviously this target isn't being met right now but this is the target. I don't know how feasible that 2 is with DSI.

I don't know what pros and cons the aerodynamics team have in front of them. But I know DSI wasn't something in internal discussions. But there's always change and who knows what we might see in the future.

I don't think windtunnel is a limitation. TA is building many of their own and have bought time on tunnels all over the world. The wind tunnel effort has been massive. No reason to think that they don't have access to supersonic wind tunnels - they obviously did.

it's extremely unlikely that Kaan will reach Mach 2 even if it did, it would not be with the combat load. Therefore doesn't matter.

Mach 1.6 with combat load is sufficient. That's the MAXIMUM speed of F35

 

[Oublious]

A DSI intake compared to adjustable Caret intake have overwhelming advantages in the following:
Lifecycle cost; not just upfront construction, but also maintenance. The elimination of mechanically actuated component in a confined section greatly cuts needed resources and man hours to service the component.
Weight reduction; again, the utter lack of moving component close to the nose extremity not only increases payload and/or performance, but also reduces the demands for airfoil trimming which combined can net a significant increase in performance
Stealth; obviously you no longer have 2 massive angular reflector pointing dead front between the intake and the fuselage to avoid the boundary layer.

DSI is not perfect, it has disadvantages. Since it cannot alter its geometry to adapt to variable shockwave forms in supersonic range, usually in speed ranges beyond mach 1.6 the DSI intake would fall behind other options in air flow efficiency, thus aircraft with DSI intakes are usually capped below mach 1.8.

Given Kaan’s design choice to favor high subsonic and transonic range, with limited super-cruise demand between mach 1.3 to 1.5 , DSI intake is a good fit. Although DSI intakes are more difficult to engineer given its complex geometry, so that could be the hurdle for Turkey since it does not have its own supersonic wind tunnel complex and likely outsourced such tests overseas.

lol

if we do not have the right equipment how did we make the fighter? What do you now about Turkish aviation industy what we don't have?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

KAAN's first flight echoes with Rod Stewart's The First Cut Is the Deepest...

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[hodor]

SSB President Haluk Görgün said "the indigenous engine will be ready for KAAN's mass production".

Some say that "domestic engine means the F110 engine to be produced under license"

@MMM-E What is your opinion on this?