JF-17 PFX program

[Quwa]

ENTEI
@ZEUS_PSF

To those who are asking me what is "JF-17 Thunder PFX" Though I don't know much/anything about it, however here is my analysis on "Thunder PFX".....
- It seems like PAF wants to develop & design something to bridge the gap between a 5th Generation fighter & a 4th Generation fighter.
- Something better than J-10C/B-III/Block-52+ & inferior than J-31/J-35 & KAAN [since both ]
- Something indigenous just like the "Thunder project" to phase out F-7P/PG, Mirage-III/V, A-5, basically to act as backbone in the future.
- Remember the initial name of the "Thunder project" was "Super-7/redesign the F-7", later it evolved into FC-1 or commonly known as "Thunder Project".
- However can't comment on the timelines of "Thunder PFX program", it seems like 2040 & beyond.- It will be something like South Korean KAI KF-21 Boramae.
- Please note that "Thunder PFX" is something too far into the future, moreover nothing officially available on this other than the "name" that came via PAF official documentary.
- Will require massive redesign of the current "JF-17 Thunder Airframe", since the current airframe has reached its "structural limitations" for any major upgrades.


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If it's 'something like KF-21' then they might as well pursue the J-31 with local manufacturing and deep customization rights/capacity. The later KF-21 blocks will have internal weapon bays and (I'm guessing) further RCS reduction measures anyways.

 

[Awwad]

Secondly J-31 will start coming soon. My guess is 1.5 to 2 years. KAAN would start coming in 2030 to 2032 and off course if we plan to induct 100 plus KAAN than each year we would get 8 to 10 at best. Even if we start receiving KAAN in 2030 it would take 7 to 8 years to fully complete those orders of KAAN. And if JF-17 PFX is a version of JF-17 like Grippen E than we would have that too also in really large numbers. J-10 C, KAAN, J-31 and let's suppose JF-17 PFX is Grippen E type thing all these would be at least 100 in number when inducted. Infact way above 100. Plus JF-17 BLOCK III And JF-17 Block 1 and 2 wil be serving and working as work horse.

oh God save us!

A paragraph of impossibilities both financially & logistically. Try to understand the overhead & burden of a new platform. Its a complete system that needs full time support and massive economic injection just to keep it operational. You are taking 5th gen platforms as if they are some joke! They are not easy for even world's powerful & stable economies.

Your shopping spree maybe well above One hundred billion dollars. why on earth Pakistan will induct two different 5th gen platforms and that too within the space of just 5 years ?? Is PAF gone nuts & totally non-professional and non-practical? Why will they not bother to wait for J-31 to fully induct in the force, why not to increase its inventory? Why not to work on its supply chain & maintenance hands on first ?

BTW, What's the god damn urgency that a third world / debt ridden country that's enrolled in IMF (save us from default) program will go on shopping spree for most costly 5th gen platforms? That too from a country where masses living under poverty-line. That's unthinkable.

Even if we forget the financial side, it will be a logistical nightmare to induct too many different platforms in the space of few years. doing the trainings, developing the doctrines / strategies over the specific platform, integrating it and making it operational is no joke. You have to commit to a platform and invest & dedicate a LOT of time to it. So if CAS has de-classified the next 5th gen platform to be J-31, so its going to be ONLY that for atleast next 15 years (minimum). No KAAN for you before 2040! Unless, PAF changes its mind from J-31 to KAAN, Even in that case we will have to wait for turkish engines & initial deliveries to TuAF to complete.

J-10 C order is already way above 50. More and More J-10 C are coming, and final number would be way above 100. Like way above.

I know, J-10Cs numbers may increase but over the time. You are not going to induct 100s by 2032. I was specifically talking about your stated timeline of 2032. PAF may be able to place another 25 jets order in few years and so we may get total of 50 by 2032. More may keep coming till 2040s.

My assessment is PAF will keep increasing J-10Cs till 2040s. J-31s may start coming from 2030s, PAF will keep inducting J-31s till 2050s. KAAN may not be inducted at all, if J-31 fully take care of PAF's needs. PAF will evaluate costs to induct completely new 5th gen platform like KAAN, It will evaluate what value really KAAN adds to PAF in exchange of massive time and money investment. Most importantly, PAF will evaluate the challenges from Indian side or any serious 5th gen threats from India. So, if india inducts AMCA somewhere in 2030s and if PAF is confident to keep an edge or similar capability with J-31 than I see no need for KAAN. No need to take such a massive burden.

 

[Zarvan]

oh God save us!

A paragraph of impossibilities both financially & logistically. Try to understand the overhead & burden of a new platform. Its a complete system that needs full time support and massive economic injection just to keep it operational. You are taking 5th gen platforms as if they are some joke! They are not easy for even world's powerful & stable economies.

Your shopping spree maybe well above One hundred billion dollars. why on earth Pakistan will induct two different 5th gen platforms and that too within the space of just 5 years ?? Is PAF gone nuts & totally non-professional and non-practical? Why will they not bother to wait for J-31 to fully induct in the force, why not to increase its inventory? Why not to work on its supply chain & maintenance hands on first ?

BTW, What's the god damn urgency that a third world / debt ridden country that's enrolled in IMF (save us from default) program will go on shopping spree for most costly 5th gen platforms? That too from a country where masses living under poverty-line. That's unthinkable.

Even if we forget the financial side, it will be a logistical nightmare to induct too many different platforms in the space of few years. doing the trainings, developing the doctrines / strategies over the specific platform, integrating it and making it operational is no joke. You have to commit to a platform and invest & dedicate a LOT of time to it. So if CAS has de-classified the next 5th gen platform to be J-31, so its going to be ONLY that for atleast next 15 years (minimum). No KAAN for you before 2040! Unless, PAF changes its mind from J-31 to KAAN, Even in that case we will have to wait for turkish engines & initial deliveries to TuAF to complete.



I know, J-10Cs numbers may increase but over the time. You are not going to induct 100s by 2032. I was specifically talking about your stated timeline of 2032. PAF may be able to place another 25 jets order in few years and so we may get total of 50 by 2032. More may keep coming till 2040s.

My assessment is PAF will keep increasing J-10Cs till 2040s. J-31s may start coming from 2030s, PAF will keep inducting J-31s till 2050s. KAAN may not be inducted at all, if J-31 fully take care of PAF's needs. PAF will evaluate costs to induct completely new 5th gen platform like KAAN, It will evaluate what value really KAAN adds to PAF in exchange of massive time and money investment. Most importantly, PAF will evaluate the challenges from Indian side or any serious 5th gen threats from India. So, if india inducts AMCA somewhere in 2030s and if PAF is confident to keep an edge or similar capability with J-31 than I see no need for KAAN. No need to take such a massive burden.

First bother to tell me how we are paying for JF-17 we are producing, J-10 C we are inducting, VT 4, SH-15 Artillery, Type 54 A Frigates, Babur Class Corvettes, Yarmook Class corvettes, 8 submarines, HQ9, HQ16,CAMM ER, TB 2, Akinci, Shahpar II, Wing Long II drones, Missile Boats, different missile programs, AWACS and EW planes, and shall I continue more. If you can answer me these things than come and debate with me on finances. J-31 is announced by PAF not me. JF-17PFX program was just announced by PAF not me. It was Turkish official who openly announced that 200 Pakistanis are working on KAAN program and soon number will be increased to 400. We signed the deal of J-10 C in May 2021 and in March 2022 we had J-10 C in Pakistan. Anyone who is following Pakistani Defense ministers they all know first J-31 will come than we would get KAAN. I am not the only one saying it, anyone who follows defense matters knows this is the plan. So Mr. stop talking to me about things how they are logistically possible. We are Pakistan we may not spend money on any other thing, but we do spend on our defense. KAAN and J-31 are both part of future plans of PAF. J-31 and KAAN will come, and both will come and come in really large numbers. KAAN will be our own project AZM modified according to our needs and J-31 will be bought off the shelf. So before replying to me first answer me on all the weapon systems I have mentioned how we are buying and producing them if you can't than stop talking about what we can afford and what we can't. Also, on logistical aspect keep it in mind that we have inducted and fully integrated J-10 C in hardly two years.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

First bother to tell me how we are paying for JF-17 we are producing, J-10 C we are inducting, VT 4, SH-15 Artillery, Type 54 A Frigates, Babur Class Corvettes, Yarmook Class corvettes, 8 submarines, HQ9, HQ16,CAMM ER, TB 2, Akinci, Shahpar II, Wing Long II drones, Missile Boats, different missile programs, AWACS and EW planes, and shall I continue more. If you can answer me these things than come and debate with me on finances. J-31 is announced by PAF not me. JF-17PFX program was just announced by PAF not me. It was Turkish official who openly announced that 200 Pakistanis are working on KAAN program and soon number will be increased to 400. We signed the deal of J-10 C in May 2021 and in March 2022 we had J-10 C in Pakistan. Anyone who is following Pakistani Defense ministers they all know first J-31 will come than we would get KAAN. I am not the only one saying it, anyone who follows defense matters knows this is the plan. So Mr. stop talking to me about things how they are logistically possible. We are Pakistan we may not spend money on any other thing, but we do spend on our defense. KAAN and J-31 are both part of future plans of PAF. J-31 and KAAN will come, and both will come and come in really large numbers. KAAN will be our own project AZM modified according to our needs and J-31 will be bought off the shelf. So before replying to me first answer me on all the weapon systems I have mentioned how we are buying and producing them if you can't than stop talking about what we can afford and what we can't. Also, on logistical aspect keep it in mind that we have inducted and fully integrated J-10 C in hardly two years.

But your timing is ridiculous, did PAF announced signing of the contract of j31? Does Turkiye complete the project of KAAN in such a short time frame 2024 to 2030,? America complete development of F-22 after selecting F-22 in 91 and inducted it in 2005? Development of F-22 takes 14 years after selecting by USAF in 91


Does Turkiye have the capacity to complete KAAN project with limited resources and limited engineering resources, you assuming too much

 

[Zarvan]

But your timing is ridiculous, did PAF announced signing of the contract of j31? Does Turkiye complete the project of KAAN in such a short time frame 2024 to 2030,? America complete development of F-22 after selecting F-22 in 91 and inducted it in 2005? Development of F-22 takes 14 years after selecting by USAF in 91


Does Turkiye have the capacity to complete KAAN project with limited resources and limited engineering resources, you assuming too much

Air Chief said we already have laid the foundation for induction of J-31. Basically, he said all homework and the infrastructure which is required for induction of J-31 is already underway. Most work completed rest will be completed soon. So please stop wasting my time. If you are not ready to trust what Air Chief has said and PAF has confirmed at least in three videos by now in last few months than Mr. I can do nothing about your state of denial and delusion. Tomorrow you can also claim we never inducted J-10 C all videos and pictures are work of AI. Even when we signed contract of J-10 C it wasn't announced. A contract was signed in March 2021, and Pakistani Nation was finally told in 2023 in a video. So, you seriously have no clue how things work between Pakistan and China, our recent procurements how many systems we inducted but we have kept hidden for really long time. Bhai stay in your bubble even when J-31 arrives you still would have some excuse or some delusional things to say so I definitely can't do anything about it.

 

[Zarvan]

If it's 'something like KF-21' then they might as well pursue the J-31 with local manufacturing and deep customization rights/capacity. The later KF-21 blocks will have internal weapon bays and (I'm guessing) further RCS reduction measures anyways.

Bhai watch the video, in that video JF-17 PFX is mentioned separately and then J-31 is mentioned separately. J-31 is coming. JF-17 PFX is totally different program. Either it's a jet like Grippen E or a jet like SU-75 without internal bay. And later it would come with internal bay. But J-31 is coming and also JF-17 PFX.

 

[Quwa]

Air Chief said we already have laid the foundation for induction of J-31. Basically, he said all homework and the infrastructure which is required for induction of J-31 is already underway. Most work completed rest will be completed soon. So please stop wasting my time. If you are not ready to trust what Air Chief has said and PAF has confirmed at least in three videos by now in last few months than Mr. I can do nothing about your state of denial and delusion. Tomorrow you can also claim we never inducted J-10 C all videos and pictures are work of AI. Even when we signed contract of J-10 C it wasn't announced. A contract was signed in March 2021, and Pakistani Nation was finally told in 2023 in a video. So, you seriously have no clue how things work between Pakistan and China, our recent procurements how many systems we inducted but we have kept hidden for really long time. Bhai stay in your bubble even when J-31 arrives you still would have some excuse or some delusional things to say so I definitely can't do anything about it.

brother...if AZM has taught us anything...the PAF's definition of "foundation" can also be a doodle on a napkin. Moreover, the next PAF leadership could also change things. From NASTP to J-31, nothing is guaranteed to stay as we know it over the next 3-5 years.

One thing I don't understand is why they're so fixated on producing a crewed fighter. I get it's a 'pride' thing, okay, but it's irrational. You've already committed to one (if not two) foreign next-gen fighter designs. So, perhaps, they should focus on negotiating for a decent offset package aimed at building useful local sustainment and integration/customization capabilities.

Besides that, the PAF should be looking at pivoting PAC towards manufacturing UCAVS. Like, start with developing your target drone tech into an attritable MUM-T UAV or munition. Then, develop a bigger 3-4-ton loyal wingman UCAV. Finally, aim for a 9-12-ton strike UCAV.

@JamD @Oscar

I think this would be a more scalable approach because you may need many more UCAVs versus crewed fighters. It may be easier to develop the core inputs for these applications at home too, from composites to flight control system to engines (at least a 3-4-ton UCAV).

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Air Chief said we already have laid the foundation for induction of J-31. Basically, he said all homework and the infrastructure which is required for induction of J-31 is already underway. Most work completed rest will be completed soon. So please stop wasting my time. If you are not ready to trust what Air Chief has said and PAF has confirmed at least in three videos by now in last few months than Mr. I can do nothing about your state of denial and delusion. Tomorrow you can also claim we never inducted J-10 C all videos and pictures are work of AI. Even when we signed contract of J-10 C it wasn't announced. A contract was signed in March 2021, and Pakistani Nation was finally told in 2023 in a video. So, you seriously have no clue how things work between Pakistan and China, our recent procurements how many systems we inducted but we have kept hidden for really long time. Bhai stay in your bubble even when J-31 arrives you still would have some excuse or some delusional things to say so I definitely can't do anything about it.

J10C is a different story it's conventional 4.5th gen jet, J-31 need more testing especially in avionics and AESA you're assuming first pt of J-31 which is underpowered and only for airframe testing stealth jets need more testing than 4.5th gen jet

J10C is ready in such a short time period because it's based on J10B with minimal structural changes only have a major avionics and AESA changes

So your theory is ridiculous that we will get J-31 in 1.5/ 2 years you're in denial mode I'm thinking realistically you're thinking emotionally with no base

 

[Zarvan]

brother...if AZM has taught us anything...the PAF's definition of "foundation" can also be a doodle on a napkin. Moreover, the next PAF leadership could also change things. From NASTP to J-31, nothing is guaranteed to stay as we know it over the next 3-5 years.

One thing I don't understand is why they're so fixated on producing a crewed fighter. I get it's a 'pride' thing, okay, but it's irrational. You've already committed to one (if not two) foreign next-gen fighter designs. So, perhaps, they should focus on negotiating for a decent offset package aimed at building useful local sustainment and integration/customization capabilities.

Besides that, the PAF should be looking at pivoting PAC towards manufacturing UCAVS. Like, start with developing your target drone tech into an attritable MUM-T UAV or munition. Then, develop a bigger 3-4-ton loyal wingman UCAV. Finally, aim for a 9-12-ton strike UCAV.

@JamD @Oscar

I think this would be a more scalable approach because you may need many more UCAVs versus crewed fighters. It may be easier to develop the core inputs for these applications at home too, from composites to flight control system to engines (at least a 3-4-ton UCAV).

Sir unmanned UAV like KHILILZELMA B and C are part of the plan but they are no replacement for a manned fighter jet. And unlike Army, Air Force doesn't changes it's plans that much. Plus, Pakistan has very few allies left, we won't make blunder of pissing of Turkey and China. I started to talking to few people. There is an agreement among them that first J 31 will come than under project AZM a modified KAAN will be part of PAF. J 31 at best is two years away while KAAN is 6 years away. As for JF 17 PFX, it's either like GRIPPEN E or will follow KF 21 model. By that what I mean is it would be a single engine fighter jet with body like a 5th generation fighters jet and all other features of a fifth generation fighters jet except for internal weapons bay and after few years internal weapons bay would also come which will turn JF 17 PFX into a 5th generation fighters jet

 

[Zarvan]

J10C is a different story it's conventional 4.5th gen jet, J-31 need more testing especially in avionics and AESA you're assuming first pt of J-31 which is underpowered and only for airframe testing stealth jets need more testing than 4.5th gen jet

J10C is ready in such a short time period because it's based on J10B with minimal structural changes only have a major avionics and AESA changes

So your theory is ridiculous that we will get J-31 in 1.5/ 2 years you're in denial mode I'm thinking realistically you're thinking emotionally with no base

Do you know how China works? First go and learn. There are huge chances J 31 prototype 4 and 5th are also flying but aren't shown in public. That also could mean that we may have already become partner in it in the sense that J 31 is being designed keeping our suggestions in mind and PAF pilots could be flying them. The corporation level which we have with China is not like one we have with USA where everything is announced before we get them. All I knowing seeing past record when an PAF announces a plane is coming from China it has never taken more than 1.5 years to that announcement becoming a reality. USA and Europe are a completely different story.

 

[gusto]

nine pages of so much so ...

PFX has given a real cannabis effect to a lot of people. why don't let this smoke (which it is right now) take its own path and see if it gets denser or lost in the wind.

what we have seen of a much revolutionary project like AZM a part of which (stealth fighter) going in thin air and suddenly TFX claims to comes under AZM?

how much ground does PFX hold, we will see for sure. WSK in that video says, as per them, they already have operational interface for PFX acquired. how does it make a big news even?

i am not saying there is not even a pinch of salt, but don't make castles out of it when there is no confirmation from nowhere. even J-31 announcement was too early to digest.

after what happened with AZM, they must be careful for any such adventures.

isn't it that all these announcements and/or deliberate leaks of certain something this and that, someone is on to something big behind this hue and cry especially when it is matter of days ...

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Do you know how China works? First go and learn. There are huge chances J 31 prototype 4 and 5th are also flying but aren't shown in public. That also could mean that we may have already become partner in it in the sense that J 31 is being designed keeping our suggestions in mind and PAF pilots could be flying them. The corporation level which we have with China is not like one we have with USA where everything is announced before we get them. All I knowing seeing past record when an PAF announces a plane is coming from China it has never taken more than 1.5 years to that announcement becoming a reality. USA and Europe are a completely different story.

Those are J35 prototypes and how do you know that they're flying secretly only you know that no other Chinese able to take pictures of your so called J-31 prototypes? @Deino knows better than all of us and I believe him not on you there's no J-31 prototypes flying in China you're assuming baseless and having lots of wishful thinking

 

[GriffinsRule]

I agree with @JamD

There's no "JF-17 PFX." It's the PAF's last-ditch attempt to give the JF-17 production line more life, and it likely won't succeed. Why? Well, it's not because of the JF-17, but because AHQ is now looking towards J-10CE, J-31, and KAAN; where's JF-17 going to fit?

Personally, I believed - and still do - that the JF-17 should continue. The PAF should look at replacing the Block-Is with a Block-III/B-based system equipped with improved subsystems and next-gen interoperability (E.g., MUM-T).

No matter what, we should maintain a large fleet of lightweight fighters to defend our airspace, even if we induct many larger designs, like the J-31 and KAAN. Dedicate the latter for offensive operations, retain and upgrade the JF-17s for defensive measures.

Stop thinking about export. The truth is that the JF-17 is a niche concept. Not many air forces needed that type of fighter and the ones who did all designed and built their own (i.e., Sweden, South Korea, and India). Thus, you're left with a tiny market and quite a few options. The concept is starting to catch on now, but most buyers are leaning toward the Korean F/A-50, which provides a great balance of cost, capability, and manageable Western integration.

This isn't to indict the JF-17. It gave the PAF the fighter it needed at a critical time, and even with zero exports, I'd call it a success. Unfortunately, the PAF isn't equipped to manage the program for its next chapter.

The PAF leadership is trying to be a warfighting force, business, gentleman's club, tech startup, and foreign affairs ministry all in one. However, the institution isn't equipped to manage any of that non-warfighting work efficiently, nor should it be...

IMO, in the late 2000s, entities such as PAC (alongside HIT, POF, KSEW, etc) should have been reorganized into a separate force focused on defence R&D and production.

Okay, you don't want to trust the politicians and civilians - fine! - then at least set up another military service arm focused on R&D and production.

Put a 3-star/4-star general at the top alongside 1-star/2-stars to form a board of directors, and then delegate, delegate, and delegate the management of the R&D arm to scientists, engineers, business experts, etc. Basically, adopt a similar model to what the Turkish Armed Forces Foundation does with Turkiye's state-owned defence industry players, like TAI.

These experts would've seen the JF-17's market problems many years in advance and, in turn, could've pivoted to a succession program sooner. For example, they might have flagged the J-31 and TFX earlier on in their development cycles and, in turn, pushed for advance funding towards both to secure valuable co-production work, tech transfer, etc, later. They may spot and leverage opportunities (e.g., South Africa's Marlin AAM/SAM program, Ukraine's AI-9500F turbofan, etc.,) to build our domestic capability base.

Main reason I am/was against J-10 induction instead of going all in for Thunder.

As for all the fantasy acquisitions ppl are daydreaming about, they must be funded from all the money PAF is going to save from retiring a handful of transport aircraft I bet

 

[SBD-3]

My impression
1- PFX may very well be the codename for JF-17 upgrade program (Upgrading Block II to Block III) because Alen Warnes's recent report only alluded to upgrade project of JF-17 and development of indigenous data link (Link-17) for the PAF Fleet. No mention of any further plans on JF-17 development.

2-The video itself showed the future plans of PAF and it didn't feature KAAN, so only 83 JF-17 B IIIs, 50 JF-17 B I, 70 odd J-10Cs and an undisclosed number of J-31s. F-16s take the backseat and No KAAN for now as J-31 offers PAF relatively a mature platform. KAAN will take some time.

Update: PFX is an 100% indigenization program, not necessarily a new varient development

"The indigenisation effort extends to the development of Pakistan’s first indigenous fighter aircraft. The JF-17 PFX programme, set to be formally launched alongside the Aerospace Village in February 2024, represents a significant milestone in the PAF’s pursuit of selfreliance and other niche technologies required for the development of the aerospace industry in Pakistan. The JF-17 PFX programme has progressed to 30 to 40 percent into the design phase. "

 

[Mrc]

This is probably evolution of project azm