TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[MMM-E]

S.Arabia wants to join the KAAN project

KAAN is halal product ...

KAAN's transformation from November 2021 to February 2024!

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[hyperman]

S.Arabia wants to join the KAAN project

KAAN is halal product ...

This is BIG. If Turkey plays its cards right, all that that defense export money that used to go to UK, France, Germany, US for Aircraft sales and other defense tech can potentially be routed into the Turkish Defense Sector, further boosting its development and sustainment capabilities. Saudi, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, all very big defensive importers.

Turkey should offer them irresistible deals, something Germany and others would refuse, codevelopment and local production even if the order is large enough. I think there is a market for NATO standard product, that is compatible with their older purchases of western defense equiptment, but with less strings attached.

 

[MMM-E]

Turkey should offer them irresistible deals, something Germany and others would refuse, codevelopment and local production even if the order is large enough. I think there is a market for NATO standard product, that is compatible with their older purchases of western defense equiptment, but with less strings attached.

For example

1-- Saudi Arabia will reportedly acquire 60 AKINCI UCAVs from Türkiye as part of a $3.1 billion defense deal that will also transfer know-how and production facilities to Saudi Arabia , where later batches will be manufactured locally along with some of their smart munitions

2-- Turkiye gives Helicopter manufacturing technology to S.Arabia
Turkiye can give also TEI TS-1400 Turboshaft Engine technology



3-- KAAN Fighter Jet on the way

 

[Deino]

beyond the design phase
We may see the first prototype in 2026



TR-MOTOR is a completely different team from TEI

TEI develops TF-6.000 and TF-10.000 turbofan Engines
TR-MOTOR + TEI + IVCHENKO PROGRESS together develops 35.000 lbf turbofan Engine

Ukrainian Ivchenko-Progress is providing technical assistance for the development of an indigenous turbofan engine for the KAAN.
View attachment 22068

If you really try with IVCHENKO PROGRESS, then this new engine is doomed from the beginning! IVCHENKO PROGRESS has not built a single true modern high-end turbofan engine since when? (in fact if ever) and on a technology base Turkey can rather learn nothing for a true +160kN from them.

 

[MMM-E]

If you really try with IVCHENKO PROGRESS, then this new engine is doomed from the beginning! IVCHENKO PROGRESS has not built a single true modern high-end turbofan engine since when? (in fact if ever) and on a technology base Turkey can rather learn nothing for a true +160kN from them.

IVCHENKO PROGRESS has great experience with D-18T 51.000 lbf (229 kN) high-bypass turbofan Engine that powers the Antonov An-124 and An-225 large Transport Aircraft



And Turkiye has the latest technologies with western standard for Gas turbine Engines

wait and see what will happen in 2028


btw Ukraine will buy modern Turkish KAAN Fighter Jets in the future - Ukrainian Ambassador to Turkiye Vasyl Bodnar

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[Eşbah]

If you really try with IVCHENKO PROGRESS, then this new engine is doomed from the beginning! IVCHENKO PROGRESS has not built a single true modern high-end turbofan engine since when? (in fact if ever) and on a technology base Turkey can rather learn nothing for a true +160kN from them.

We don't know anything about the work agreement between IP and TAI. However, it is a publicly well-known fact that IP's technologies are more or less outdated, although, this doesn't have to mean much. IP and its infrastructure and workforce could be used to outsource laborious detail work that has to be done anyways.

Transnational cooperation agreements between two entities don't have to involve knowledge sharing.

I believe that the Ukrainian input is limited in nature and their main job is to accelerate the development of the project.

As long as we don't get insights, everything said about their business relationship and the degree of IP's contribution is conjecture.

 

[MMM-E]

Western standard high quality manufacturing
( 48 years of experience )

KAAN was produced by high tech state of the art facility at TAI








TAI also produced F-35 center fuselage with zero error


Turkish Aerospace ( TAI ) is the single source supplier to Boeing 737-747-767-777-787 and Airbus A320-A330-A350

You can read and learn what about TAI

https://www.tusas.com/en/products/aerostructures

 

[hyperman]

If you really try with IVCHENKO PROGRESS, then this new engine is doomed from the beginning! IVCHENKO PROGRESS has not built a single true modern high-end turbofan engine since when? (in fact if ever) and on a technology base Turkey can rather learn nothing for a true +160kN from them.

I guess we will see, If I remember correctly, you predicted it wouldn't fly either and then the picture of the prototype being built were released in late 2022.

 

[Merzifonlu]

If you really try with IVCHENKO PROGRESS, then this new engine is doomed from the beginning!

As far as I understand, IVCHENKO PROGRESS will support two issues. 1- In the design of engine accessories. 2- It will help in the overall design of the ecosystem.

TEI can already design and produce 5-stage compressors. We saw this with the TF-6000 engine. TEI can also design and produce large-sized blisk fans. TEI also acquired nozzle and afterburner technologies with the TF-6000 engine. Last year, we also cast single crystal blades that have 20% more tensile strength under operating temperature than their world equivalents.

Under these conditions, my expectation is this: There will be a design with a 2-stage large fan at the front and then a 5-stage compressor and 2-stage HP fan and twin spool.

I think the diameter of the large fan on the front will be about 106cm. The operating temperature of blades cast from single crystal can be around 1650 degrees. These single crystal blades can be a bit longer than the blades on the F110.

In this way, I think 24000 lb dry thrust and 35000 lb thrust with afterburner can be achieved.

There are two questions, each worth a billion dollars. They are as follows: 1) Will this engine be mature enough to be installed in the Kaan prototype in 2028? and 2) Will this engine need frequently major maintenance?

 

[Quwa]

If you really try with IVCHENKO PROGRESS, then this new engine is doomed from the beginning! IVCHENKO PROGRESS has not built a single true modern high-end turbofan engine since when? (in fact if ever) and on a technology base Turkey can rather learn nothing for a true +160kN from them.

I can't tell if you're genuinely doubting...or playing a reverse psychology game where your doubting will encourage the KAAN stakeholders to work faster and do the improbable.

TAI: "Hey Ivchenko-Progress, Deino says you can't make a modern turbofan..."
IP: "That guy?! Oh, screw that guy, we'll show him an engine."

 

[Deino]

We don't know anything about the work agreement between IP and TAI. However, it is a publicly well-known fact that IP's technologies are more or less outdated, although, this doesn't have to mean much. IP and its infrastructure and workforce could be used to outsource laborious detail work that has to be done anyways.

Transnational cooperation agreements between two entities don't have to involve knowledge sharing.

I believe that the Ukrainian input is limited in nature and their main job is to accelerate the development of the project.

As long as we don't get insights, everything said about their business relationship and the degree of IP's contribution is conjecture.

Agreed, but how should or could a company that never ever itself developed a modern turbofan engine in even close that thrust-range - and Kaan requires even more than IP ever proposed with the RD-33 successor/replacement program - is surely an argument or concern,

 

[MMM-E]

Agreed, but how should or could a company that never ever itself developed a modern turbofan engine in even close that thrust-range - and Kaan requires even more than IP ever proposed with the RD-33 successor/replacement program - is surely an argument or concern,

Ivchenko Progress developed Engines in 1960s , When China did not know even what about Engine

Modernity = Turkiye
Experience = Ukraine


You also said same things about the KAAN Fighter Jet 3 years ago

Turkiye has no experience to develop even a 4th gen Fighter Jet
how can Turkiye develop modern 5th gen Fighter Jet ?

look at again

 

[hyperman]

Ivchenko Progress developed Engines in 1960s , When China did not know even what about Engine

Modernity = Turkiye
Experience = Ukraine


You also said same things about the KAAN Fighter Jet 3 years ago

Turkiye has no experience to develop even a 4th gen Fighter Jet
how can Turkiye develop modern 5th gen Fighter Jet ?

look at again
View attachment 22636

Yep, the narrative was Turkey can't even develop a 4th Gen fighter, that this was "domestic propaganda" they called it an "Iranian Hoax"/"North Korea Hoax" to fool their people, now suddenly they pivot to engine engine engine. Not only do they not acknowledge that Turkey flew a prototype, but AHEAD of schedule.

The engine is obviously definitely harder, but The project is already successful with GE110 engines. People forget that the Rafale flew with GE404 engine initially, and that the Saab Gripen flew with GE404 engine, yet no one uses the engine talking point against them.

These narratives are so annoying, Altay tank is a "failure" but K2 Black Panther is a success. when really they both have the same achilles heel of a German Powerpack. They try to compare it to the Arjun Tank, that actually has performance failures, not political failures. It not like the Altay didn't go into production b/c of other issues, they talk performed incredibly well in testing, the production hit a snag b/c of an embargo of engines, If the Germans did the same thing to the K2, would that be a failure?

 

[UKBengali]

Yep, the narrative was Turkey can't even develop a 4th Gen fighter, that this was "domestic propaganda" they called it an "Iranian Hoax"/"North Korea Hoax" to fool their people, now suddenly they pivot to engine engine engine. Not only do they not acknowledge that Turkey flew a prototype, but AHEAD of schedule.

The engine is obviously definitely harder, but The project is already successful with GE110 engines. People forget that the Rafale flew with GE404 engine initially, and that the Saab Gripen flew with GE404 engine, yet no one uses the engine talking point against them.

These narratives are so annoying, Altay tank is a "failure" but K2 Black Panther is a success. when really they both have the same achilles heel of a German Powerpack. They try to compare it to the Arjun Tank, that actually has performance failures, not political failures. It not like the Altay didn't go into production b/c of other issues, they talk performed incredibly well in testing, the production hit a snag b/c of an embargo of engines, If the Germans did the same thing to the K2, would that be a failure?

Much as I want Turkey to succeed, I think there is next to no chance that Turkey will have a 35,000lb engine ready even in the 2030s.

Turkey cannot defy the accepted norms of engineering and remember that high-performance turbofans are as much art as science. There is no shortcut to massive experience and trial and error.

Even China only started putting the WS-15 engine for the J-20 into mass production last year and that was over a decade after it put the WS-10B(F-110 class) into mass production on the J-11B back in 2009.

Russia has now fallen behind the Chinese as they do not have their own 35,000lb thrust-class engine for Su-57 in production yet. They have so much legacy Soviet experience but are really struggling at developing such a high thrust fighter engine.

Turkey does not even have a domestic turbofan fighter engine developed yet of any generation and to think they can develop something like this by the 2030s is far too wishful thinking I am sorry to say.

 

[MMM-E]

These narratives are so annoying, Altay tank is a "failure" but K2 Black Panther is a success. when really they both have the same achilles heel of a German Powerpack. They try to compare it to the Arjun Tank, that actually has performance failures, not political failures. It not like the Altay didn't go into production b/c of other issues, they talk performed incredibly well in testing, the production hit a snag b/c of an embargo of engines, If the Germans did the same thing to the K2, would that be a failure?

ALTAY Tank is another story
Germany imposed an Engine embargo on ALTAY Tank
Austria cancelled deal with Turkiye to develop engine for Altay Tank

and Turkiye has started developing 1.500 hp diesel engine and was successfully fired for the first time in 2021

1500 hp BATU Engine will be ready to power the ALTAY Tank in 2026

also indigenous high torque transmission, high efficiency chiller and multi-functional control unit


As a result of the experience gained from the ALTAY Tank engine embargo , Turkiye started to develop turbofan engine in 2018 to power the KAAN Fighter Jet in 2028-2032 period