TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[hyperman]

They can and still occupy Air Superiority roles, ditching their CFTs, go clean with just 4-6 amramms on tandem hardpoint, lit their afterburners and that baby can still give you mach 2+, but that's the problem, they would need afterburners for that, which multiplies fuel consumption several times fold.

They still would only be in supersonic flight for very very limited amount of time compared to what 5th gen are set out for. Occassionally entering supersonic flight as needed vs staying in supersonic flight (especially without afterburners)

Do you really need afterburners for BVR tho? F-35 can't supercruise, still a very capable platform. I feel these gimmicks like Thrust Vectoring and supercruise aren't as important as low detectability and sensor fusion, thats what really defines the generation. Don't get me wrong, they are good to have, but not as important as low RCS and sensor fusion. b/c ultimately its not about dogfights, its about firing before you get detected and then disengaging, if the BVR doctrine is in play, they never stay till the merge.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Do you really need afterburners for BVR tho? F-35 can't supercruise

Firing BVR at supersonic speeds has a better kinetic energy than Firing BVR at subsonic speed sir

 

[hyperman]

Firing BVR at supersonic speeds has a better kinetic energy than Firing BVR at subsonic speed sir

If its not a dealbreaker for Fat Amy, who can't go supersonic without afterburners, yet is seen as the preeminent fighter, especially with the impending retirement of the raptor. I don't see why this pigeon holing exists for other platforms.

 

[Harbyharb]

Do you really need afterburners for BVR tho? F-35 can't supercruise, still a very capable platform. I feel these gimmicks like Thrust Vectoring and supercruise aren't as important as low detectability and sensor fusion, thats what really defines the generation. Don't get me wrong, they are good to have, but not as important as low RCS and sensor fusion. b/c ultimately its not about dogfights, its about firing before you get detected and then disengaging, if the BVR doctrine is in play, they never stay till the merge.

Low detectability and sensor fusion is of course, more important. In a peer to peer engagement, if you don't have either, you won't even survive long enough for things like kinematics performance and ordinance to matter.

But what happens when both parties HAVE comparable detectablility and sensor function? And keep in mind this is not about dogfights btw. What happens when an F-35 meets, say, a J-20 w. WS-15, and both sides are supported with modern AEW aircraft that can detect VLO aircraft out to BVR range? Then kinematics performance would matter a lot.

This is why I half-jokingly refer to F-35 as A-35 or B-35, just as F-117 really should be A-117 or B-117...

 

[MMM-E]

NO need Dogfight
Turkiye focused on long range engagement ( BVR Combat )


F-15 , F-16 , RAFALE , Eurofighter , SU-35 have no chance against KAAN in BVR combat
because KAAN has far smaller RCS than all 4,5 gen Fighter Jets in the World


3 features that will give KAAN an advantage
for first look , first fire and first kill capability
-- 40 kw BURFIS AESA Radar with GaN technology ... ( 2.000+ T/R modules ) to detect 1m2 RCS target from 200 km

-- 200 km GOKHAN ramjet powered long range Air to Air Missile

-- RCS value for X band 10GHz as 0.0030 m2 [ -25dbsqm ]


Turkish Fighter provides air dominance through:

- Increased air to air engagement ranges with Novel Weapons
- Precise and accurate weapon firing from internal weapon bays at high/supersonic speed
- Augmented lethality with support of Artificial Intelligence and Neural Networks

Source : https://www.tusas.com/en/products/aircraft/indigenous-development/tf

KAAN has stealth design , advanced magnetic coating , RAM panel layer and internal weapon bay for low RCS .... ( RCS value for X band 10GHz as 0.0030 m2 [ -25dbsqm ]
offical demonstration



Professionals compared the radar detection ranges of the 5th generation KAAN against other Fighter Jets based on estimated data

RCS
F-35 : 0.0015 m2
KAAN : 0.0030 m2
SU-57 : 0.0700 m2
KF-21 : 0.1000 m2

Engagement
F-35 vs KAAN : 28km vs 40 km
SU-57 vs KAAN : 25 km vs 102 km
KF-21 vs KAAN : 18 km vs 137 km

BURFIS AESA Radar is based on detecting Aircraft with 1m2 RCS from 200 km


This is the explanation why TAI says KAAN will be the ruler of the sky

1 -- Stealthy
2-- 40kw powerful AESA RADAR with GaN technology for long range detection
3-- Excellent EW capability with Aselsan FEWS EW Suite
4-- Augmented lethality with support of Artificial Intelligence and Neural Networks
5-- DIRCM Directed Infrared Countermeasure System for self defense
6-- 200 km GOKHAN ramjet powered Air to Air Missile for long range engagement

and the most lethal feature
full data-to-decision (D2D) capability for multi-layered distributed team of diverse manned aircraft working in concert with unmanned types ( KAAN , ANKA-3/4, KIZILELMA )

ANKA-4 unmanned stealth Fighter Jet to help KAAN for air to air combat
KAAN+ANKA-4 against 1 enemy Fighter Jet



KAAN never will meet with F-22 and J-20
USA and China dont sell F-22 . J-20 to anyone

Fighter Jets that KAAN may encounter
F-15 , F-16 , RAFALE , Eurofighter , SU-35 , SU-57 , F-35

 

[MMM-E]

Still in the design phase, we don't know how far along it it.

beyond the design phase
We may see the first prototype in 2026

details still being worked out whether there will be a collaboration with RollsRoyce of Ivenchenko Progress, they haven't released these details to the public, although I believe Ivchenko Progress has been involved in certain things.

TR-MOTOR is a completely different team from TEI

TEI develops TF-6.000 and TF-10.000 turbofan Engines
TR-MOTOR + TEI + IVCHENKO PROGRESS together develops 35.000 lbf turbofan Engine

Ukrainian Ivchenko-Progress is providing technical assistance for the development of an indigenous turbofan engine for the KAAN.

 

[MirageBlue]

Uh, I'll give you a hint.

HAL Tejas' aerodynamic work is largely done by Dassault, while high fidelity supersonic wind tunnel models and tests were outsourced to japan...

Obviously to avoid unecessary hurdles and PR issues, such information are hardly ever confirmed. But I don't think this is a bad decision - back a few years ago when Kaan's final design features are frozen, Turkey have had only experience in assembling F-16 and have never developed indigenous projects that would warrent building a supersonic wind tunnel complex, which is both expensive and time consuming to build. I have no doubt that Turkey would eventually commit to such a project, if they persist with their ambition for military independence and develop future projects.

Like I always said, "all is fair in love and war", and the top prioirty of TAI should be to deliver the Kaan in accordance with the timetable with minimal delays...

Tejas' aerodynamics work was largely done by Dassault?! Where'd you get that idea?

Dassault was a consultant on the program, it's role was to train HAL engineers in the use of design tools and to give inputs on choices that were to be made. That included choices like the overall configuration (where the delta wing was chosen) and FBW (Dassault offered it's triplex digital with full analog backup) which were rejected by DRDO and ADA for the fully digital quadruplex FBW with no analog backup. It didn't do any of the work on it's own the way you're implying.

And NO, there was no WT tests done in Japan for the Tejas. It was done at CALSPAN and ONERA wind tunnels.

 

[MMM-E]

The British Chief of General Staff, who calculated according to reports that its KAAN assembly would be completed in 2028, asked the following question when he came to Turkiye and examined KAAN

- How did you build this Fighter Jet ?

 

[Quwa]

There are many people who don't believe that Turkey can build a fifth-generation aircraft, even though it has made its first flight. Honestly, it seems unbelievable even to me. Sometimes I think I'm dreaming.

So it is not surprising that people find it difficult to accept this reality.

It's a result of generations of lacking the "can do" mentality. I'm not saying people should shoot for the moon from step one, but in Pakistan at least, you see (often the elder generation) be against even taking the first step. Sadly, we also have charlatans (in Pakistan) who say they're building space rocket engines behind their chai stand, so you can see why we're jaded.

 

[hodor]

TR-MOTOR is a completely different team from TEI

TEI develops TF-6.000 and TF-10.000 turbofan Engines
TR-MOTOR + TEI + IVCHENKO PROGRESS together develops 35.000 lbf turbofan Engine

Ukrainian Ivchenko-Progress is providing technical assistance for the development of an indigenous turbofan engine for the KAAN.
View attachment 22068

Tf35k engine tender has not been made, TRMOTOR has not been officially assigned this task.

On the other hand, the offer of the KALE group + RR is still valid. Recently, the CEO of KALE announced that they were preparing for the tender.

Of course, most probably they will give the tender to TRMOTOR as you say, but we should not ignore the other possibility.

 

[hyperman]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1762193466627399797

Malaysian Ambassador to Ankara Sazali Mustafa Kamal reportedly visited #TUSAS facilities and was given a tour of the TFX/MMU #Kaan.

 

[RedBeard]

Sorry for off-topic

But Kaan reminds me of JF-17 project. The Americans blocked the sale of F-16s to Pakistan and they started exploring other options. Some countries were hesitant to sell to Pakistan and they decided to build one by themselves in collaboration with China.

America refused F-35 to Turkey and they started exploring other options. Germany was hestitant to sell Eurofighter and they now have KAAN.

America refusing the fighter jets is a blessing in disguise

Kaan, MMU started as a seperate project from F-35 programme. With or without F-35’s this project would still continue.

 

[LegionnairE]

Sorry for off-topic

But Kaan reminds me of JF-17 project. The Americans blocked the sale of F-16s to Pakistan and they started exploring other options. Some countries were hesitant to sell to Pakistan and they decided to build one by themselves in collaboration with China.

America refused F-35 to Turkey and they started exploring other options. Germany was hestitant to sell Eurofighter and they now have KAAN.

America refusing the fighter jets is a blessing in disguise

Nope. Kaan was supposed to fly alongside F-35 from the very beginning. Getting kicked out of the program forced the company to accelerate development sure but having F-35 at hand would be invaluable as a benchmark if nothing else. It's not "a blessing in disguise"

we didn't "start exploring options" this project is at least 12 years in the making.

"we'll make our own F35 with blackjack and hookers" is a political narrative nothing more. It's actually damaging to Kaan's reputation.

How do you not know this. Didn't you visit the Turkish section in the old PDF even once?

 

[Mr X]

Nope. Kaan was supposed to fly alongside F-35 from the very beginning. Getting kicked out of the program forced the company to accelerate development sure but having F-35 at hand would be invaluable as a benchmark if nothing else. It's not "a blessing in disguise"

we didn't "start exploring options" this project is at least 12 years in the making.

"we'll make our own F35 with blackjack and hookers" is a political narrative nothing more. It's actually damaging to Kaan's reputation.

How do you not know this. Didn't you visit the Turkish section in the old PDF even once?

I am aware of this project however I took this project mostly on paper until Turkey was kicked out of F-35 project which motivated Turkey to accelerate this project in my opinion

That’s the whole point in my last post

 

[LegionnairE]

I am aware of this project however I took this project mostly on paper until Turkey was kicked out of F-35 project which motivated Turkey to accelerate this project in my opinion

That’s the whole point in my last post

Even if it did force us to accelerate this project this comes at a cost. Nobody knows what corners were cut.

Building, maintaining and operating the F35 would be an invaluable experience for the TurAF nevermind having a benchmark to test TFX against.

Instead we had to allow Sweden into NATO and pay 23 billion dollars for a bunch of F16s. We'll spend god knows how much more on the Eurofighter and none of these aircraft nor Kaan can operate from an aircraft carrier that we want to build.

Not to mention the 9 Billion Dollars we lost in F35 Part sales that could fund the TFX project.