TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[MMM-E]

In the first phase, 16 HÜRJET training Aircraft will be delivered to the Turkish Air Force.
Deliveries will begin in 2025



In the first phase, 20 KAAN will be delivered to the Turkish Air Force in 2028

 

[Deino]

@Deino

What's your take on the maiden flight? Was it worth the wait?

Well, not to post too much which can be misread in several ways, it is a tremendous achievement in fact i never expected that soon As such I admit I was wrong and surely it is a most interesting & promising type ... BUT!

And now still my concerns: If you look at some posts here or within the social media circus, Kaan is already portrayed as "the ruler of the sky"!, comparable if not better - in most cases since larger - than the F-22, Su-57 and J-20 and that's my point! My stance is to take emotions a bit lower and rationale higher!

As much it is a promising program, my fear is, it is too much ... in its current form it is comparable to the J-20 demonstrator "2001" flown first in 2011. It too is powered by too weak interim engines and most of all it is yet still more an empty shell, just a technical demonstrator, a prototype.

Therefore I expect several changes to be incorporated within the development process which surely will take time, will maybe face some setbacks and most of all to reach the desired goals, it requires a true high-performance engine. And that's my point ... assembling parts for Western companies like GE and manufacturing certain ones since years is one story, to have the whole technical package together in one hand alone and developing a mature, reliable engine is another story and therefore comparisons to all so far done work on certain technical aspects, technologies or small engines for UAVs and trainer is TOTALLY different to a high-end, high-thrust engine in the class of 160+ kN!

And here I simply think, some should scale down their hopes to a realistic level otherwise they will be desperately disappointed.

Let's see and hope ...

 

[hyperman]

Well, not to post too much which can be misread in several ways, it is a tremendous achievement in fact i never expected that soon As such I admit I was wrong and surely it is a most interesting & promising type ... BUT!

And now still my concerns: If you look at some posts here or within the social media circus, Kaan is already portrayed as "the ruler of the sky"!, comparable if not better - in most cases since larger - than the F-22, Su-57 and J-20 and that's my point! My stance is to take emotions a bit lower and rationale higher!

As much it is a promising program, my fear is, it is too much ... in its current form it is comparable to the J-20 demonstrator "2001" flown first in 2011. It too is powered by too weak interim engines and most of all it is yet still more an empty shell, just a technical demonstrator, a prototype.

Therefore I expect several changes to be incorporated within the development process which surely will take time, will maybe face some setbacks and most of all to reach the desired goals, it requires a true high-performance engine. And that's my point ... assembling parts for Western companies like GE and manufacturing certain ones since years is one story, to have the whole technical package together in one hand alone and developing a mature, reliable engine is another story and therefore comparisons to all so far done work on certain technical aspects, technologies or small engines for UAVs and trainer is TOTALLY different to a high-end, high-thrust engine in the class of 160+ kN!

And here I simply think, some should scale down their hopes to a realistic level otherwise they will be desperately disappointed.

Let's see and hope ...

Is the F-15EX underpowered?

Isn't the GE F110 comparable to a WS-10?

How many production in service J-20s with WS-15s are there?

Yes Ideally there would be more thrust, but for now I think KAAN gets the job done. Its not like they are expecting it to be dogfighting with full afterburners. Not sure where that extra bit of thrust would be factored in, in BVR battles atleast. Its faster than the F-35 If I'm not mistaken, which has arguably the best 5th gen engine in the world.

 

[hodor]

There are many people who don't believe that Turkey can build a fifth-generation aircraft, even though it has made its first flight. Honestly, it seems unbelievable even to me. Sometimes I think I'm dreaming.

So it is not surprising that people find it difficult to accept this reality.

 

[Falcon26]

View attachment 21890
View attachment 21884

The rear side of the KAAN looks huge and reminds me of SU-57 of the Russian Air Force. Not sure what the drawdowns might be @JamD

 

[MMM-E]

assembling parts for Western companies like GE and manufacturing certain ones since years is one story, to have the whole technical package together in one hand alone and developing a mature, reliable engine is another story and therefore comparisons to all so far done work on certain technical aspects, technologies or small engines for UAVs and trainer is TOTALLY different to a high-end, high-thrust engine in the class of 160+ kN!

All of you made fun of us when we said many things about the KAAN and now You admit you was wrong about KAAN .. You never expected that soon as such


Not only assambling ..
but also design and develop its own technology in the last 10 years such as TEI TS-1400 turboshaft Gas turbine Engine

including
1-- Single crystal blade
2-- bliks and spool
3-- Advanced materail - process development projects for aircraft engine components namely, Yakut, Dilek, Örs and İnci projects are successfully between 2014-2019

YAKUT Project
Additive Manufacturing Technology for Nickel Alloy Plating in Aviation

INCI Project
Development Project for Titanium Casting Technology in Aviation

DILEK Project
Development of Superplastic Forming Process for Titanium Alloys


4-- KRISTAL (Single Crytal and Directional Solidification Blade Casting Technology in Aviation)

5-- DINC (Aviation Grade Stainless Steel and Nickel Based Superalloy Development)

6-- ATOM (Nickel Metal Powder Production Technology for Additive Manufacturing)

7-- ELEKTRON (Titanium Additive Manufacturing Process Development by Electron Beam Melting)

and many more critical technologies which were developed by only a few Countries in the World


TEI is developing the first indigenous turbofan Engine, TEI-TF6000, with 10.000 lbf with afterburner TF-10.000

and The first prototype of TEI TF-6.000 Turbofan Engine is about to be completed!

This project has a critical role in the path to meeting the needs the technological achievements for the engine of the indigenous Turkish Fighter - KAAN program.

TF-10.000 Engine


When we increase the diameter of the TF-10.000 engine by 30 cm, it will have a power effect of 35,000 lbf

same technology
if we develop TF-10.000 Engine , there will not be a big deal to develop 35.000 lbf Engine

Our Guys are not daydreamer ... They very well knows what about technology level of Turkiye and They say 35.000 lbf turbofan Engine will be ready for mass production of KAAN

wait and see
Turkish Defense Industry will continue to amaze the World

 

[Deino]

...
When we increase the diameter of the TF-10.000 engine by 30 cm, it will have a power effect of 35,000 lbf
same technology if we develop TF-10.000 Engine , there will not be a big deal to develop 35.000 lbf Engine
...

And this post alone clearly shows, YOU HAVE NO CLUE AT ALL OF WHAT YOU SPEAK!

As if just enlarging the diameter of an engine by 30cm would be easy to make out of an 10,000 lbf engine one that can provide 35,000 lbf.

 

[Harbyharb]

Is the F-15EX underpowered?

Isn't the GE F110 comparable to a WS-10?

How many production in service J-20s with WS-15s are there?

Yes Ideally there would be more thrust, but for now I think KAAN gets the job done. Its not like they are expecting it to be dogfighting with full afterburners. Not sure where that extra bit of thrust would be factored in, in BVR battles atleast. Its faster than the F-35 If I'm not mistaken, which has arguably the best 5th gen engine in the world.

Raw thrust figures isn't everything. If it is, we should all start strapping airliner high bypass turbofans on fighters, our comparatively puny and light figher would ascend to hypersonic speeds.

When you go on wikipedia, and you see an engine have a maximum thrust of xxx Newtons or pound force, that does not speak the full picture. The actual thrust produced by the engine varies very significantly depending on the environment such as altitude, humidity, tempereture, as well as the speed of the aircraft itself, and that's before we even start talking about fuel consumption rate.

The problem with "third-generation" turbofans like F-110, AL-31, F-414s, WS-10 etc, is that it is not designed to sustain prolonged supersonic flight, their efficiency and produced thrust without afterburner decreases sharply as the aircraft enters transonic and supersonic ranges. This is where "fourth-generation" engines like F-119, AL-41(debatable), WS-15 comes in, they have much more powerful gas generators (or the part that actually does the fuel burning) with less "bypass" (or just fan), which enables them to have much greater thrust without afterburners, which pushes the 4th gen aircraft into prolonged, efficient, supersonic flight (hence supercruise)

Fun fact, F-119 and F-135 have the same "gas generator", and F-135 gets more thrust simply by having a bigger diameter, or rather, bigger "fan", and that's enough for F-35 which is designed to operate primarily in subsonic ranges anyway.

 

[MMM-E]

And this post alone clearly shows, YOU HAVE NO CLUE AT ALL OF WHAT YOU SPEAK!

As if just enlarging the diameter of an engine by 30cm would be easy to make out of an 10,000 lbf engine one that can provide 35,000 lbf.

Not me
General Manager of TEI Prof MAHMUT AKSIT say this

read again
When we increase the diameter of the TF-10.000 engine by 30 cm, it will have a power effect of 35,000 lbf
He worked as Consultant Research Engineer, Senior Researcher, Static Seals Manager and finally Advanced Seals Research Team Leader at General Electric Corporate R&D Center for 10 years in USA

and now He rules TUSAS Engine Industries Inc. (TEI) which developed TS-1400 turboshaft Engine within 7 years

Other Counries develops same Engine in 15 years

 

[Harbyharb]

Not me
General Manager of TEI Prof MAHMUT AKSIT say this

read again
When we increase the diameter of the TF-10.000 engine by 30 cm, it will have a power effect of 35,000 lbf
He worked as Consultant Research Engineer, Senior Researcher, Static Seals Manager and finally Advanced Seals Research Team Leader at General Electric Corporate R&D Center for 10 years in USA

and now He rules TUSAS Engine Industries Inc. (TEI)
View attachment 21961

There you have it folks.
Wide fuselage, moderate wing sweep, thicc airframe, high(ish)-bypass turbofan
Turkey be making an even fatter F-35 lmao. I don't blame them, kebab do be irresistable...

 

[MMM-E]

American , Indian , Chinese guys have been living in a state of shock in the last 4 days

 

[JamD]

The rear side of the KAAN looks huge and reminds me of SU-57 of the Russian Air Force. Not sure what the drawdowns might be @JamD

Right now a drag chute is housed in the central nacelle. Not sure if this is going to continue. Maybe they'd want a radar there, not sure. Moving the engines apart is likely a decision to increase the main internal weapons bay size.

 

[hyperman]

Raw thrust figures isn't everything. If it is, we should all start strapping airliner high bypass turbofans on fighters, our comparatively puny and light figher would ascend to hypersonic speeds.

When you go on wikipedia, and you see an engine have a maximum thrust of xxx Newtons or pound force, that does not speak the full picture. The actual thrust produced by the engine varies very significantly depending on the environment such as altitude, humidity, tempereture, as well as the speed of the aircraft itself, and that's before we even start talking about fuel consumption rate.

The problem with "third-generation" turbofans like F-110, AL-31, F-414s, WS-10 etc, is that it is not designed to sustain prolonged supersonic flight, their efficiency and produced thrust without afterburner decreases sharply as the aircraft enters transonic and supersonic ranges. This is where "fourth-generation" engines like F-119, AL-41(debatable), WS-15 comes in, they have much more powerful gas generators (or the part that actually does the fuel burning) with less "bypass" (or just fan), which enables them to have much greater thrust without afterburners, which pushes the 4th gen aircraft into prolonged, efficient, supersonic flight (hence supercruise)

Fun fact, F-119 and F-135 have the same "gas generator", and F-135 gets more thrust simply by having a bigger diameter, or rather, bigger "fan", and that's enough for F-35 which is designed to operate primarily in subsonic ranges anyway.

Yes, but you see the J-20 doesn't supercruise without the WS-15 either, neither does the F-15EX, neither of those jets are considered underpowered, that was my point.

 

[hyperman]

Not me
General Manager of TEI Prof MAHMUT AKSIT say this

read again
When we increase the diameter of the TF-10.000 engine by 30 cm, it will have a power effect of 35,000 lbf
He worked as Consultant Research Engineer, Senior Researcher, Static Seals Manager and finally Advanced Seals Research Team Leader at General Electric Corporate R&D Center for 10 years in USA

and now He rules TUSAS Engine Industries Inc. (TEI) which developed TS-1400 turboshaft Engine within 7 years

Other Counries develops same Engine in 15 years
View attachment 21961

There is no point in arguing about the engine right now, I guess we will all see one way or the other by 2030, when the time comes.

 

[hodor]

And this post alone clearly shows, YOU HAVE NO CLUE AT ALL OF WHAT YOU SPEAK!

As if just enlarging the diameter of an engine by 30cm would be easy to make out of an 10,000 lbf engine one that can provide 35,000 lbf.

We all know it is difficult to build a 35.000 lb engine. I think Mahmut Faruk Akşit said that to put it in a simple way. He is one of the 5 most successful managers working in the defense industry in Turkey.