1st HANGOR Class Submarine of Pakistan Navy has been launched at Shuangliu

[MastanKhan]

Our nuclear program started in 70s and we detonated nuclear weapons in 98, and SLBM and SSBN projects will be more complex and difficult than our nuclear program was and our nuclear program had started when then we were relatively stable on political and economic terms, we don't have these conditions currently, think about it

Hi,

We " detonated " them in the lab in the mid late 80's.

 

[Taimoor]

The little skirmish of 2019 saw the use of conventional weapons F-16s, JF-17s. It didn't see the use of Shaheen missiles.

Presence of Shaheen and other missiles allowed us to use JF17 and F16s with liberty and maintain Quid Pro Quo Plus.

These are weapons which belongs to the different stages of escalation ladder. They compliment each other.

 

[Awwad]

whos "they" lol.

Fringe elements in larger groups? The vocal minority? This same rhetoric is going to turn Pakistan into 5 different states. You have 3/5 territories with legitimate concerns, where people are treated like second class citizens.

Remember Nawaz referring to Pakhtuns as idiots, or in more recent times, Maryam suggesting checkpoints on roads from KPK to counter insurgency...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1776240772817293444

This rhetoric of collective punishment/blame is what is going to end up causing Pakistan to divide.

Blaming entire ethnic groups for policy failure at the hands of the government has stirred up animosity, then quelling that animosity via force instead of actually listening to their concerns created the separatism. Had the government not deprived the Balochis of development and investment, im sure none of this would be news. Instead, there is lack of opportunity, lack of outlook, lack of trust, leading men to join groups to earn for their family and become indoctrinated, creating violence. We will see the same in KP too soon enough, sindh too etc.

Balochistan is rich in minerals, the government has ample opportunity to provide work and reap rewards from their investments into the province. Instead, the corrupt dealings with the Chinese and other outsiders has lead to Baluchis being replaced by outsiders. The GAME CHANGER CPEC involved the Chinese shipping out labour from China instead of hiring local workers, with the large majority, being flown in, on inflated salaries from China, paid for by Chinese loans to Pakistan lol. In whos mind was this a good idea??? Chinese fishing boats literally illegally fish within gwadar depriving local fishermen of their sole source of income.

By Allah if i was a baluchi or a pakhtun and i was seeing stuff like this in front of my eyes, id have picked up arms too. Why on earth be loyal to a state who could not give a damn about me or my people, a state who is only interested in exploiting my land.

Instead of demographic engineering or giving up, there is a third option, a proper option, the right option:

Listen to the concerns had grievances of these people, work with them in a conclusive manner to solve them. Create a future, an outlook for these people, winning the hearts and minds. Like India is doing in Kashmir lol, IOK is developing at a rapid pace, you think theyre going to ever look towards a state like Pakistan and say yes, we want to leave India and join Pakistan, no, never. Fringe elements will always exist, however, a happy, thriving majority will always quash those minorities.

Trying to put sense in such people for so long. They are hell bent to "fix" Pakistan the way they tried to fix East Pakistan. These people meant more harm to Pakistan then good. Seems like as if they are on a agenda. Only an enemy would think on the lines of dividing people and creating hatred with bully tactics.

 

[DevendraRajput]

Babur cruise missiles basically means nukes then...India should be worried.

Intercepting a cruise missile flying over sea and targeting land is easy as pie. there is no land to mask your presence and anything with a look down mode can detect the missile. Then there is IR sensors. India will detect and destroy a subsonic missile very easily if it is flying over sea and targetting land.

More importantly, India is getting MQ-9Bs to detect and target subs. MQ9-B with a missile launched torpedo will make short work of any subs Pakistan may try to deploy.

 

[Awwad]

Presence of Shaheen and other missiles allowed us to use JF17 and F16s with liberty and maintain Quid Pro Quo Plus.

These are weapons which belongs to the different stages of escalation ladder. They compliment each other.

I know and I agree. My context was different. Use of missiles like shaheen in indo/pak scenario is for dooms-day scenario. My point is we already have nuclear deterrence. Now our focus & priority should be to get conventional balance (which we are doing already). If we keep focusing on nuclear weapons and lose conventional edge then we will be battered hard by enemy in that threshold. The conventional threshold / domain is where most of skirmishes will happen. That's our focus is and that's where it should be while keeping nuclear deterrence intact as it is.

 

[maverick]

It was a different world in the 80's. A lot was possible without worrying on lot of other things. Pakistan was training and sending jihadists not only across Afghan border but towards Kashmir as well. Something that's not possible today. Pakistan had full US support, it was receiving funds. US were only concerned on defeating & hurting the soviets. They weren't concerned on anything else. Plus Pakistan was not under the thumb of IMF, there was no FATF watching closely etc. ................. Just imagine, if Pakistan would not have become nuclear power in 80s. Would it be possible to become nuclear power in today's world. Not a chance!..... So its a different world today.

Secondly, building a submarine that will carry a SLBMs with sole intent of nuclear strike is NOT going to happen for Pakistan. I don't see this happening in our lifetimes even if Pakistan transforms into a great economy. There's simply no need for it. Pakistan is not Russia or China. I don't understand when people consider Pakistan to be some world power. We have to be realistic in our assessments. Pakistan hardly has enough frigates and attack submarines to defeat IN fleet which is immediate concern. Why would Pakistan put time, money & effort on a platform that will most likely never going to be used in a war at all. Do you really think that Pakistan, an islamic state whose nuclear weapons are point of concern already for the western world will be allowed to do so especially when you are under their control via IMF and other tools.

As far as nuclear triad is concerned, our primary concern is not Russia, China or United States. Our primary and sole concern is India only. The limited range babur SLCM can carry nuclear weapon so the triad is sort of complete already (as far as india is concerned). BTW, india / Pakistan can never destroy each other completely at first place having limited war heads and being neighbors. So, Pakistan really have no need for SSBN with nuke tipped SLBMs. we really are no russia or china or major world power. Pakistan needs to get the economy fixed and then do tons of other things which should be priority even in military sector before such endeavor.

Totally independent nations may require or desire such global reach with lethal weapons. Such powerful nations can do their decisions themselves. Such nations can make their own foreign policy. I mean what we are going to do with such stuff when our position currently is such that we think that whether this PM would be acceptable to xyz country or not, should we say this thing or it will annoy a foreign power, etc.. We have to lower our expectations with the state and work step by step.


Lastly, you have to be satisfied that Pakistan Navy is on right track. It will become a formidable fleet with the addition of these subs and new surface ships. Just look back few years ago, it was almost nothing, just had 3 agosta subs and 4 F22Ps rest was complete junk. Even the 4 F22Ps with no proper air-defense. So, you should be happy how things have turned for Pakistan navy. They are focusing on immediate concern that's creating formidable A2/AD in our area of interest. All resources, effort is on platforms that add value to conventional strike capabilities, which are 100% sure to be used in a war.

Agreed !

12 Frigates, 4 F22, 4 Jinnah Class, and 4 Type 54
13 Subs, 8 Hangor, 3 Agostas 90, 2 Agosta 70

How many Corvettes ?

 

[Awwad]

Intercepting a cruise missile flying over sea and targeting land is easy as pie. there is no land to mask your presence and anything with a look down mode can detect the missile. Then there is IR sensors. India will detect and destroy a subsonic missile very easily if it is flying over sea and targetting land.

More importantly, India is getting MQ-9Bs to detect and target subs. MQ9-B with a missile launched torpedo will make short work of any subs Pakistan may try to deploy.

Nothing is easy. Real world is very different. Look Russia / Ukraine war closely. India has way huge coastline. IMPOSSIBLE to defend. Subsonics / terrain hugging missiles will easily hit land targets if fired from the sea. 24/7, peak of alert level and 4 world powers were required to defend tiny israeli airspace with most advance air-defence systems. India do not have a tiny airspace to defend. All that tech in the world can't beat geography. When the indonesian sub was lost, they knew the spot where it went missing, US sent P-8s and all other stuff, so many countries spend so much time and still it took days to find it. Just imagine, how difficult would it be to find a submarine that's intentionally trying to remain hidden. You never know where is submarine and it can fire missiles from anywhere. There's no way india can deploy systems to defend every point of its huge coastline. No country other than tiny israel can implement such a missile shield. Its only an illusion. Even for the israel, Iran wanted to give only a message / a warning, it really wasn't looking for escalation.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Your facts are totally wrong we were ready for testing in 1 week in just start of 1980s. AQ khan told this multiple times its was only due only because political establishment orders. which were given after india tested 2nd time. SLBM program will be harder than nuclear program are you serious and what will be the gdp of pak in 1980 if debt was low so was the gdp in 1980s

No need to invest on the SLBM and SSBN tech if we have much cheaper and more effective ways to neutralize Indian targets, SSK +SLCM , if we develop 2500 to 3000 km SLCM than no need to develop SLBM and SSBN which is time consuming and super expensive projects and Pakistan currently lacks political stability and economy, you're acting like a 4 year old kid which knows nothing on defense technology and military doctrine

 

[Taimoor]

I know and I agree. My context was different. Use of missiles like shaheen in indo/pak scenario is for dooms-day scenario. My point is we already have nuclear deterrence. Now our focus & priority should be to get conventional balance (which we are doing already). If we keep focusing on nuclear weapons and lose conventional edge then we will be battered hard by enemy in that threshold. The conventional threshold / domain is where most of skirmishes will happen. That's our focus is and that's where it should be while keeping nuclear deterrence intact as it is.

I understand.

But the issue is, there is clear intent from our adversary to disturb the nuclear equation by attempting to bring the nukes under the sea. Capability is not there yet, but intentions are clear. Unfortunately or fortunately, its just the nature of the game that we cant sit idle and not acquire the same capability. I am not convinced that sea based cruise missiles can be relied on assured 2nd strike. They can be easily shoot down even by fighter jets upon detection. Only mach 18+ BM would do tbh.

Having assured second strike capability can be leveraged outside Pak-Indo dynamics, as geo economics is very much intertwined with geopolitics. However, bunch of rats that have managed to grab our military institutions do not have capacity to think in that manner.

 

[DevendraRajput]

Nothing is easy. Real world is very different. Look Russia / Ukraine war closely. India has way huge coastline. IMPOSSIBLE to defend. Subsonics / terrain hugging missiles will easily hit land targets if fired from the sea. 24/7, peak of alert level and 4 world powers were required to defend tiny israeli airspace with most advance air-defence systems. India do not have a tiny airspace to defend. All that tech in the world can't beat geography. When the indonesian sub was lost, they knew the spot where it went missing, US sent P-8s and all other stuff, so many countries spend so much time and still it took days to find it. Just imagine, how difficult would it be to find a submarine that's intentionally trying to remain hidden. You never know where is submarine and it can fire missiles from anywhere. There's no way india can deploy systems to defend every point of its huge coastline. No country other than tiny israel can implement such a missile shield. Its only an illusion. Even for the israel, Iran wanted to give only a message / a warning, it really wasn't looking for escalation.

Incase of sea, there is no terrain to hug. And you can not really launch a barrage of CMs from a sub. only a limited number of them that can be detected using IR sensors from satellites or using radars of airborne platforms and even drones like MQ-9B. Afterwards its a question of how to shoot it down. Many solutions for that. Simplest being a plane with a BVR.

 

[warking2005]

Drone based ai technology that is near to be achieved will change everything soon and it will make most conventional forces obsolete

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Incase of sea, there is no terrain to hug. And you can not really launch a barrage of CMs from a sub. only a limited number of them that can be detected using IR sensors from satellites or using radars of airborne platforms and even drones like MQ-9B. Afterwards its a question of how to shoot it down. Many solutions for that. Simplest being a plane with a BVR.

We aren't only will fire SLCM but volley ground based and ALCM also in case of war with you

 

[Quwa]

The Hangor-class would be the largest submarine the PN will have operated up to this point (displacement of 2,800 tons). So, it's interesting that the PN went for a large design.

Let's assume China offered a great deal, fine, but even then the PN could have gone for a <2,000-ton design from a Chinese vendor. Rather, it went with the S26-series, which (being based on the Type 039A) was designed to support the PLAN's blue water operations.

I think the PN is acquiring the Hangor-class to patrol its SLOCs and, in general, operate farther away from the shore. The additional range or endurance (owing to the larger size) could also support the PN's strategic deterrence needs (enabling the PN to deploy nuclear-tipped LACMs farther away from Pakistan).

However, the downside is that the Stirling AIP might be susceptible to higher acoustic emissions due to its moving parts (vs fuel cell AIP). That said, I'm not sure if there's much of a temperature difference between the Arabian Sea and South China Sea (though the wider Pacific Ocean is a lot colder). So, the PN may have been satisfied with the performance in light of its environment (i.e., the design does well in the South China Sea, so it shouldn't have issues in the Arabian Sea).

That said, the Hangor is still a large boat, and it's unlikely the PN would park these near Pakistan. It'd be underusing the Hangor's benefits, which explains why the PN is seeking a shallow-water attack submarine (SWATS). The SWATS boats (plus UUVs and AUVs) would operate closer to shore and deter activity near our coasts.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Another thing to take a critical note is the S-400 and MR-SAM batteries! IN warships are supported by S-400 from Bhuj and it's coastline areas in Naliya, Jakhau, Kothara. These area are almost right next to Sir Creek so right by Pakistan's coastline. What this means is that the IN can cover over half the coastline of Pakistan, upto Karachi and in the Arabian Sea. So they provide a strong SAM umbrella going deep into Pakistan covering all relevant airbases! This capability creates a lot of difficulties for the PN during any offensive operation.

S400 was proved to be crap against slow moving cruise missile in Syria against American tomahawk

 

[DevendraRajput]

We aren't only will fire SLCM but volley ground based and ALCM also in case of war with you

What makes you think India will not make a massive first strike and take those platforms out?
The greatest asset of a submarine launched missile is that it is impossible to preempt.

If you field a SSBN, then you can rest assured that it will be almost impossible for your adversory to preemptively take out your nuclear capability.