1st HANGOR Class Submarine of Pakistan Navy has been launched at Shuangliu

[FuturePAF]

Any indication the Hangor class will feature a “Propeller Boss Vortex Diffuser”?

There are becoming standard SSK tech, and should be looked into by the PN for the Hangor, at least after the first two are built as is.

Remember it was the sale of the CNC milling machine by Toshiba to the soviets that allowed them to make the kind of propellers (probably with diffusers) that helped lower the noise level of their akulas. At the very least most of the Hangors should have these diffusers, IMHO.

Also, is it too late for the Hangor to switch to an X tail configuration? China is said to have made breakthroughs to adopt the x tail rudder design for its upcoming subs. It could be really helpful in shallow water littoral ops for the PN if the tail was an X rudder design.

http://www.xn--fiqs8sd02az8bs9ntb.com/fileZGJCYJ/journal/article/file/c58fcf17-3cf1-43fc-9a2e-9cc96f9592eb.pdf

It's no secret, Germany's Type 212 sub has cool, new tech - Asia Times

In the movie, Hunt for Red October, the Soviet Union launches a new sub with a mysterious new silent propulsion system, called a "caterpillar drive." The

asiatimes.com

Even a diffuser like the one used on the improved akulas should be studied.





The PN should use the opportunity of the 8 Hangor subs to advance the design with every two subs to get to nearly all the tech of a modern SSN/SSGN (minus the reactor of course), so that making a modern nuclear sub a realistic option, rather then a huge leap. Leasing a Type 093G, once China has enough type 095 to be able to spare a Type 093G, would also help make the transition to a domestic SSN more realistic as well.

 

[Zarvan]

Not sure what steel is in the Type 095, but even Taiwanese media acknowledges China has an operational SSN that can dive to 500 meters. So China is getting close to US and Russian performance standards.

Hopefully this steel can be applied to the last three boats of the hangar class, so that even armed with 8 VLS tubes for DF-100 SLCMs, it can give the PN a decent second strike capability, to be operated from within the Pakistani EEZ bastion of along the coast but still be able to hold the entire Indian mainland at risk.



Source: https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2024/01/08/2003811792#:~:text=The PLAN now has one,about 90 days, he said.

But in weapons carry capability China is still way behind. Catching up to Russia in next few years but way way back from USA. Just look at number of cruise missiles carried by SSN of USA.

 

[FuturePAF]

But in weapons carry capability China is still way behind. Catching up to Russia in next few years but way way back from USA. Just look at number of cruise missiles carried by SSN of USA.

They do have a ways to go, it if they keep getting to match up on a technologically level across all systems, then they can just scale up and overcome the capacity limits of their current designs, similar to what Russians did with their designs.

The Han SSN (Type 091) was said to be one of the most noisiest SSNs ever, only 20 years ago, but reports from Taiwan of 500 meter deep SSNs indicate the Chinese have come a long way in a short period of time.

With advancements across the board, perhaps in the aggregate, the latest type 095 subs probably have some performance characteristics that are close to Russian late Akulas if not early Yasen-M levels. Once the PLAN perfects type 095 design, it can scale up and fill in with more VLS and Torpedos.

btw, the PN should also look at adding SOKS; non-acoustic sensors to detect enemy subs and surface contacts.

(System Obnarujenia Kilvaternovo Sleda(SOKS), or Wake Object Detection System)

Look at this design with SOKs coming out of the sail on a royal navy Trafalgar class sub.

Royal Navy Submarine Appears In Gibraltar Equipped With Enhanced Wake Detection System

These somewhat exotic non-acoustic sensors that were once mainly found on Soviet submarines would help supplement sonar when searching for other subs.

www.twz.com

How the Soviet Union Snooped Waters for Enemy Subs—Without Sonar

Newly declassified documents show that even the most secretive submarines leave a trail.

www.popularmechanics.com

Here are the different methods the SOKS could help track enemy nuclear subs. For the PN, keeping it an eye on any nuclear subs moving through Pakistani waters should also be done to learn how to deal with future Indian nuclear subs. Eventually Pakistani SSNs will be better able to trail and monitor Indian SSBNs.

P.s. something that is becoming more standard and should also be fitting on the Hangors are a few (6-8) short range (10-15 km range) air defense missiles to to take on enemy ASW helicopters and MPAs. I think the Chinese use the HQ-10 if I’m not mistaken, so a missile similar to that would be good.

 

[FuturePAF]

The PN should look at how effective (or not) the IDAS missiles has been up till now, can at least have a few (2-4) made room for on the initial Hangor’s sail. It’s the most public of the submarine air defense systems.

 

[FuturePAF]

But in weapons carry capability China is still way behind. Catching up to Russia in next few years but way way back from USA. Just look at number of cruise missiles carried by SSN of USA.

The following is what the USN thinks the Type 095 looks like, which could the initial design, but we can expect the design to be improved after the first 2-3 boats, in a Batch 2 variant, per their trend with improvements in the Type 093 variants.

You to scroll down a bit till you will see drawings for the Type 095 and Type 096

China Maritime Report #32: “The PCH191 Modular Long-Range Rocket Launcher: Reshaping the PLA Army’s Role in a Cross-Strait Campaign” | Andrew S. Erickson

 

[MastanKhan]

At the very least the US has been making subs, such as the seawolf out of HY-100 (which means operational depth of 600 meters is normal and theoretical crush depth of 690 meters), for decades now.

ADCAP torpedos can go down to 800 meters but the stronger steel that can go deeper, HY-130, is said to be much harder to weld. But if the new Chinese steel is as strong as you say, and if it can get a sub to 1000 meters or below, it could allow a sub to operate in the deep sound channel and evade most known threats of detection or engagement.

HY-80 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Quoting this reference: https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ship/deep.htm

Btw if China has recently locally invented this steel, with a 2200 mpa strength, then it should be known that it has been studied in the west for the past 12 years.

EP2785888A1 - Martensitic steels with 1700-2200 mpa tensile strength - Google Patents

Martensitic steel compositions and methods of production thereof. More specifically, the martensitic steels have tensile strengths ranging from 1700 to 2200 MPa. Most specifically, the invention relates to thin gage (thickness of 1 mm) ultra high strength steel with an ultimate tensile strength...

patents.google.com

View attachment 49197

Hi,

Do you like reading about submarine warfare---?

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

Do you like reading about submarine warfare---?

Hi,

Sure. Seems like the great equalizer in naval warfare.

 

[Oscar]

Hi,

China's steel production is of excellent quality but they still cannot produce the top end steel or Alloys that the US produces---.

Except for traitors like this https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/metallurgist-navy-false-steel-tests.html

The metallurgy is still ahead but there is a serious issue in terms of process and controls within US manufacturing that is going to bite us really hard in the next decade. Boeing is just the tip of the problem stemming from focus on share prices and profit instead of engineering.

 

[FuturePAF]

Except for traitors like this https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/metallurgist-navy-false-steel-tests.html

The metallurgy is still ahead but there is a serious issue in terms of process and controls within US manufacturing that is going to bite us really hard in the next decade. Boeing is just the tip of the problem stemming from focus on share prices and profit instead of engineering.

The way we in the US have been doing just in time supply chaining and outsourcing to sub-contractors isn’t going to work anymore. We are going to have to go back to more traditional and resilient manufacturing standards if we are to do the “Toyota Method”; build it right the first time.

Btw, in the following video the presenter outlines how the Type 093B became so quiet (hint, Russian Assistance) and I hope now we can get a better estimate of the capabilities of the Type 093B and what tech can be applied to the Hangors. Listen in to the specifics of what the Russians helped China, in 2012, improve around 3:00-4:30. China has had 10 years to improve on the Type 093B design, and IMHO, I think they have made the leap to their first Type 095 considering how open they are about the Type 093B.

Also according to the following video there are only 3 Type 093B and then china switched to building boomers (probably the 4-6 improved Type 094 variants based on what was learned from the improvements to the Type 093B).

Meaning the next SSNs to be built will be all improved Type 095s, and those will probably start to be built in a couple of years, once the boomers are done and the bugs have been worked out of the initial 1 or 2 type 095s, so probably starting around 2027.

If America already had 30 Virginias and the US building 2 each year. Even though China only has one yard, they supposedly built 3 Type 093B in about a year. Once the work out the design of the Type 095, considering how much that yard has been expanded, building 3+ a year should be possible. They may be able to catch up to the newly the size of the virginia fleet in a decade. Even 15-20 Type 095 in, probably around 2032-2035, the PLAN would probably feel fine just selling the Type 093B to the PN, and the PN should then just considering buying the three Type 093B to create a decent sized fleet of SSGN/SSBN with decent enough capabilities to keep the Indian navy guessing. Even if the PN has to pay close to a $1 billion per used Type 093B, fully in of course (all support and weapons and training, etc.) , it would be a steal for the technological advancement to the PN’s capabilities.

IMHO, Building a mini SSN (in the 4000 ton size) won’t have the space for the needed sensors and sound silencing, unlike the 6800 ton Type 093B, plus a lot of money we don’t have would be wasted reinventing the wheel. Through maintenance, the PN could build up the industries to sustain and build comparable SSNs in a decade or two, when hopefully Pakistan will have the money to do so.

Once that kicks in, leaving at least one of the Type 093B at the very least should be something the PN serious considers, especially if it can fire up to 18 YJ-21 missiles with possibly a 1000+km range.

Down the line, at its midlife refueling, it could be refit with better sonars, comms, and computers, and allowed to keep up with the threats building from the Indians.

 

[Waz]

The way we in the US have been doing just in time supply chaining and outsourcing to sub-contractors isn’t going to work anymore. We are going to have to go back to more traditional and resilient manufacturing standards if we are to do the “Toyota Method”; build it right the first time.

Btw, in the following video the presenter outlines how the Type 093B became so quiet (hint, Russian Assistance) and I hope now we can get a better estimate of the capabilities of the Type 093B and what tech can be applied to the Hangors. Listen in to the specifics of what the Russians helped China, in 2012, improve around 3:00-4:30. China has had 10 years to improve on the Type 093B design, and IMHO, I think they have made the leap to their first Type 095 considering how open they are about the Type 093B.

Also according to the following video there are only 3 Type 093B and then china switched to building boomers (probably the 4-6 improved Type 094 variants based on what was learned from the improvements to the Type 093B).

Meaning the next SSNs to be built will be all improved Type 095s, and those will probably start to be built in a couple of years, once the boomers are done and the bugs have been worked out of the initial 1 or 2 type 095s, so probably starting around 2027.

If America already had 30 Virginias and the US building 2 each year. Even though China only has one yard, they supposedly built 3 Type 093B in about a year. Once the work out the design of the Type 095, considering how much that yard has been expanded, building 3+ a year should be possible. They may be able to catch up to the newly the size of the virginia fleet in a decade. Even 15-20 Type 095 in, probably around 2032-2035, the PLAN would probably feel fine just selling the Type 093B to the PN, and the PN should then just considering buying the three Type 093B to create a decent sized fleet of SSGN/SSBN with decent enough capabilities to keep the Indian navy guessing. Even if the PN has to pay close to a $1 billion per used Type 093B, fully in of course (all support and weapons and training, etc.) , it would be a steal for the technological advancement to the PN’s capabilities.

IMHO, Building a mini SSN (in the 4000 ton size) won’t have the space for the needed sensors and sound silencing, unlike the 6800 ton Type 093B, plus a lot of money we don’t have would be wasted reinventing the wheel. Through maintenance, the PN could build up the industries to sustain and build comparable SSNs in a decade or two, when hopefully Pakistan will have the money to do so.

Once that kicks in, leaving at least one of the Type 093B at the very least should be something the PN serious considers, especially if it can fire up to 18 YJ-21 missiles with possibly a 1000+km range.

Down the line, at its midlife refueling, it could be refit with better sonars, comms, and computers, and allowed to keep up with the threats building from the Indians.

China is catching up but no way can there be a serious comparison. US submarines are high tech monsters with decades of operations and development.

 

[HAIDER]

Will it be capable to carry nukes? on babur cruise missiles.

Pakistan's Hangor-class submarines could potentially be equipped with the Babur-3 submarine-launched cruise missile (SLCM), which has a range of 450 kilometers. The Babur-3 was first tested in 2017. Open source analysis suggests that this could give Pakistan a limited second strike or deep strike capability, which may be a concern due to India's Arihant-class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines

 

[FuturePAF]

China is catching up but no way can there be a serious comparison. US submarines are high tech monsters with decades of operations and development.

But they are closing the gap quickly. If the Russians are helping them, and if they can catch up to the level of the Russians, who still lag behind the US in sonar tech and sound silencing, then the Chinese can spend more on those two areas.

The Chinese tech industry can make great strides in sonar tech and they are doing really cutting edge R&D on Rimless drives.

Putting the Russian experience and those two areas, China could catch up significantly within a decade. Not just in tech , but size of their boats and weapons carriage, as well as their fleet size. The shipyard in Huludao is the only one, but they are said to be able to build many boats at a time, and have shown they can build 3 boats in a year.

If they can build at least 3-4 Type 095 a year and a Type 096 every two years, they will be able to catch up to at least half the level of the USN and its allies collective SSN fleet size in little over a decade from now.

According to the Chinese sources, they already have a type 095 in the water since 2020. They tend to take 3-5 years to refine the design, so they are set this year or next to build the next variant of the Type 095.

If this is so, easily by 2035, if not by 2030, they should be willing to divest themselves of their Type 093Bs, transfer them to the PN. The Type 093B were built about a decade ago, so by then they would be 15-20 year old tech.

P.s. I suspect the last boat or two launched from Huludao a year or two ago, must have been an initial prototype of the Type 095, and not the Type 093G.

I think we will see the first “real” Type 095, when we see a fiberglass nose (covering a large spherical sonar) and torpedo tubes build 7 degrees canted to port and starboard as on the US and UK SSNs. A follow on variant to that first true Type 095 will see the individual VLS tubes replaced with SLBM sized VLS with multiple SLCMs inside as currently on the Ohio SSGN conversion boomers. These follow on Type 095 will then probably have sonar arrays that wrap around, instead of the spherical arrays.

China probably also has a similar reactor to the Russians standard 190 MW reactor on its Type 095, or they could go more powerful to make up for any places they are lagging in making the sub equally as light as US and Russian Subs, and therefore needing a more powerful reactor to compensate. I suspect we will find out when we see the reactor used on the Type 004 carrier. I suspect the Type 004 and Type 095 and Type 096 will share the same reactor.

The next generation US/UK/Australian SSN after this will be SSN-Aukus, as currently designed is just similar to the Block 5 Virginias, which are now currently being build and will probably my come into the fleet in a couple of years.

IMHO, China could probably catch up to the Virginia Block 5 in about 10-15 years, if they keep getting help from the Russians, and dedicate all the resources the program needs. So China may only be 10 years behind the USN by 2035 at the earliest.

In the long term, China will probably have a refined Type 039 based design or a follow on design it will mass produce for the First island chain, probably 12-20 subs and a fleet of at least two dozen SSNs for beyond those waters, including to escort their boomers, the way the Russians did with their Victor III SSNs escorting their Deltas up in the Barents Sea, if I remember correctly.

China launches second possible Type 093B hull

China launched the eighth Type 093 Shang-class nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN) at Huludao shipyard in northern China between 13 and 18 January 2023. This is the...

www.janes.com

China Maritime Report #30: “A Brief Technical History of PLAN Nuclear Submarines” | Andrew S. Erickson

 

[PakAl]

But they are closing the gap quickly. If the Russians are helping them, and if they can catch up to the level of the Russians, who still lag behind the US in sonar tech and sound silencing, then the Chinese can spend more on those two areas.

The Chinese tech industry can make great strides in sonar tech and they are doing really cutting edge R&D on Rimless drives.

Putting the Russian experience and those two areas, China could catch up significantly within a decade. Not just in tech , but size of their boats and weapons carriage, as well as their fleet size. The shipyard in Huludao is the only one, but they are said to be able to build many boats at a time, and have shown they can build 3 boats in a year.

If they can build at least 3-4 Type 095 a year and a Type 096 every two years, they will be able to catch up to at least half the level of the USN and its allies collective SSN fleet size in little over a decade from now.

According to the Chinese sources, they already have a type 095 in the water since 2020. They tend to take 3-5 years to refine the design, so they are set this year or next to build the next variant of the Type 095.

If this is so, easily by 2035, if not by 2030, they should be willing to divest themselves of their Type 093Bs, transfer them to the PN. The Type 093B were built about a decade ago, so by then they would be 15-20 year old tech.

P.s. I suspect the last boat or two launched from Huludao a year or two ago, must have been an initial prototype of the Type 095, and not the Type 093G.

I think we will see the first “real” Type 095, when we see a fiberglass nose (covering a large spherical sonar) and torpedo tubes build 7 degrees canted to port and starboard as on the US and UK SSNs. A follow on variant to that first true Type 095 will see the individual VLS tubes replaced with SLBM sized VLS with multiple SLCMs inside as currently on the Ohio SSGN conversion boomers. These follow on Type 095 will then probably have sonar arrays that wrap around, instead of the spherical arrays.

China probably also has a similar reactor to the Russians standard 190 MW reactor on its Type 095, or they could go more powerful to make up for any places they are lagging in making the sub equally as light as US and Russian Subs, and therefore needing a more powerful reactor to compensate. I suspect we will find out when we see the reactor used on the Type 004 carrier. I suspect the Type 004 and Type 095 and Type 096 will share the same reactor.

The next generation US/UK/Australian SSN after this will be SSN-Aukus, as currently designed is just similar to the Block 5 Virginias, which are now currently being build and will probably my come into the fleet in a couple of years.

IMHO, China could probably catch up to the Virginia Block 5 in about 10-15 years, if they keep getting help from the Russians, and dedicate all the resources the program needs. So China may only be 10 years behind the USN by 2035 at the earliest.

In the long term, China will probably have a refined Type 039 based design or a follow on design it will mass produce for the First island chain, probably 12-20 subs and a fleet of at least two dozen SSNs for beyond those waters, including to escort their boomers, the way the Russians did with their Victor III SSNs escorting their Deltas up in the Barents Sea, if I remember correctly.

China launches second possible Type 093B hull

China launched the eighth Type 093 Shang-class nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN) at Huludao shipyard in northern China between 13 and 18 January 2023. This is the...

www.janes.com

China Maritime Report #30: “A Brief Technical History of PLAN Nuclear Submarines” | Andrew S. Erickson

Submarine is a difficult technology to master but if the Chinese submarine are 80% as good as USA submarines then they will become a major threat which will be job done by China. After looking at type 95 we will know how much gap is still left to catch. Regarding the quantity, China can mass produce them to catch up but is it worth it, at first they need to make cutting edge subs and then the money will be spent.

 

[FuturePAF]

Submarine is a difficult technology to master but if the Chinese submarine are 80% as good as USA submarines then they will become a major threat which will be job done by China. After looking at type 95 we will know how much gap is still left to catch. Regarding the quantity, China can mass produce them to catch up but is it worth it, at first they need to make cutting edge subs and then the money will be spent.

That is what they seem to be doing, catch up as close as possible and then go for mass production. No sense building dead weight.

But I don’t think they are going to settle for 80%. They will probably wait till they are nearly close to the bulk of the USN’s operational subs, like Virginia block 2/3 before going for mass production.

 

[blueboy7862]

That is what they seem to be doing, catch up as close as possible and then go for mass production. No sense building dead weight.

But I don’t think they are going to settle for 80%. They will probably wait till they are nearly close to the bulk of the USN’s operational subs, like Virginia block 2/3 before going for mass productSir,

Sir, we had also plans for SSN revealed by former CNS. What happened to that?