1st HANGOR Class Submarine of Pakistan Navy has been launched at Shuangliu

[FuturePAF]

Sir, we had also plans for SSN revealed by former CNS. What happened to that?

It seems like more of a desire on his and the navy’s part considering what is possible with SSKs and what is possible with an SSNs.

This is why I said if Pakistan acquired 3 Type 093B derived variants subs (preferably new build boats, with some Type 095 features such as a more powerful sonar, the latest improvements to sound silencing, a single 150+MW reactor instead of two 75 MW reactors so that the sub doesn’t need refuel every 7-12 years like the current type 093B but can do it at least every 15-20 years, and large VLS to make it future proof). It is a better option in my opinion then building our own boat, because of how much China has advanced in sound silencing and propulsion tech. It is also because we can do alit more with a 6800 ton sub then a 4000 ton sub that has limited space to keep up with modern demands.

So hopefully they can get new build variants with the above stated upgrades, for around or less than $1 billion each. A fleet of just three would completely change the capabilities of the PN.

 

[studsmart]

or just get one 093B on lease to learn and then build updated design of hangoor with reactor

 

[blueboy7862]

Since Babur is torpedo tube launched. Neither Hangor class nor Agosta class have dedicated vertical launch tube's. So any of Pakistan's submarines can launch Babur missiles.

Sir, hopefully modified Hangor-class submarines may have VLS to fire variety of missiles.

 

[Jaeger]

Sir, hopefully modified Hangor-class submarines may have VLS to fire variety of missiles.

If you spend enough money anything is obtainable.

 

[MS Sandhu]

IN have put significant investment in Anti Submarine Warfare
PN needs longer ranged cruise missiles otherwise getting close to Indian coastline is risky.

 

[FuturePAF]

IN have put significant investment in Anti Submarine Warfare
PN needs longer ranged cruise missiles otherwise getting close to Indian coastline is risky.

We should assume the Indians have all the capabilities the Russians have, especially their sosus nets (powered by nuclear batteries). The Indian continental shelf extends a bit from the shore, so its shallow enough for them to easily put lots of sensors there.

This is why an SSN is necessary to quickly and quietly move in an out of enemy waters. We have to build up the capabilities to go offensive, and not remain primarily in a defensive posture with just SSKs that are best at defending our coastline, and a submarine bastion for a second strike force.

Also, cruise missile, even very stealthy ones, have a higher probability of detection and thereby interception. Small but capable hypersonic like the DF-100 are the right fit, IMHO, for the PN’s needs. Fast, maneuverable, and compact. An SSGN with 12-18 of those and we have a second strike capability or a very potent anti-shipping capability against an Indian surface group, up to and including an Indian carrier battle group. And all this from a safe distance and an unexpected angle (an SSN could be lurking 800 km south west of INS Karwar, for months, and the Indians would have to use a lot of resources finding and tracking it.)

 

[Qureshi]

We should assume the Indians have all the capabilities the Russians have, especially their sosus nets (powered by nuclear batteries). The Indian continental shelf extends a bit from the shore, so its shallow enough for them to easily put lots of sensors there.

This is why an SSN is necessary to quickly and quietly move in an out of enemy waters. We have to build up the capabilities to go offensive, and not remain primarily in a defensive posture with just SSKs that are best at defending our coastline, and a submarine bastion for a second strike force.

Also, cruise missile, even very stealthy ones, have a higher probability of detection and thereby interception. Small but capable hypersonic like the DF-100 are the right fit, IMHO, for the PN’s needs. Fast, maneuverable, and compact. An SSGN with 12-18 of those and we have a second strike capability or a very potent anti-shipping capability against an Indian surface group, up to and including an Indian carrier battle group. And all this from a safe distance and an unexpected angle (an SSN could be lurking 800 km south west of INS Karwar, for months, and the Indians would have to use a lot of resources finding and tracking it.)

Since 041 (SSK-N) has emerged as an option and is capable of completing most, if not all, of the jobs that SSNs can, I'm not sure why you are so enthusiastically advocating SSNs for PN, same I've bribed you in other thread too. Consequently, it makes little sense to spend more money when it can be done for a few bucks to accomplish the same goal.

In the meantime, Chinese have initiated 041 construction, with four now under construction, while PN concentrates on finalizing the shallow water design for their SSPs. Thus, post 2030 PN can evaluate this type & place orders accordingly if it deemed fit in our doctrine.

For Type 041 (SSK-N) characteristics/design, kindly view post # 145/147 on following link...

Hangor Class Submarine | Updates & Discussion

A nuclear submarine in the 2,500 L Tons range is entirely feasible for Pakistan with help from our Chinese and Turkish friends. It will not require any expansion of the Naval Dockyard. It can be modeled after the French Rubis class nuclear subs, which were at 2,400 L Tons surfaced and 2,600...

defencepk.com

 

[FuturePAF]

Since 041 (SSK-N) has emerged as an option and is capable of completing most, if not all, of the jobs that SSNs can, I'm not sure why you are so enthusiastically advocating SSNs for PN, same I've bribed you in other thread too. Consequently, it makes little sense to spend more money when it can be done for a few bucks to accomplish the same goal.

In the meantime, Chinese have initiated 041 construction, with four now under construction, while PN concentrates on finalizing the shallow water design for their SSPs. Thus, post 2030 PN can evaluate this type & place orders accordingly if it deemed fit in our doctrine.

For Type 041 (SSK-N) characteristics/design, kindly view post # 145/147 on following link...

Hangor Class Submarine | Updates & Discussion

A nuclear submarine in the 2,500 L Tons range is entirely feasible for Pakistan with help from our Chinese and Turkish friends. It will not require any expansion of the Naval Dockyard. It can be modeled after the French Rubis class nuclear subs, which were at 2,400 L Tons surfaced and 2,600...

defencepk.com

“same I've bribed you in other thread too”
…huh, what?

I have back and forth with what I’m advocating, but I have settled on the need for an SSN.

Let me explain my line of thinking. 1 Hangor costs approx. $625 million ($5 billion for 8 subs). Second the type 041 SSK-N will be a quasi-SSN, so the speed and endurance will be limited. At best we are looking at a Rubis class sub, 4000 tons.

Adjusted for inflation from the 2014 estimate ($750 million) for a Type 094 SSBN, in 2024, it would cost $1 billion. The Type 093B probably costs just as much with all its improvements. Or about 60% more expensive.

Naval Modernisation in South-East Asia

This edited volume analyses the naval arms race in South-East Asia, and reviews the content, purposes and consequences of the naval policies and development of the main countries of the region. The rise of naval capability in the countries of the Asia-Pacific Region is increasingly recognised...

web.archive.org

The Type 041 would costs some where in between, let’s assume $700 million each.

The Type 093B offers the ability to be long range missile carrier in large numbers. Have the range/endurance and very importantly, the speed to do as control over the large area of the Indian Ocean.

In short. It complicates Indian planners work significantly.

I agree for now, go for the Type 041 (but in lieu of, not subsequently to the last 2-4 Hangors). Lease at least one Type 093B and try to build up the economy so you don’t have to make this compromise next time.

 

[Qureshi]

“same I've bribed you in other thread too”
…huh, what?

It was a typo "briefed" ..

I have back and forth with what I’m advocating, but I have settled on the need for an SSN.

Let me explain my line of thinking. 1 Hangor costs approx. $625 million ($5 billion for 8 subs). Second the type 041 SSK-N will be a quasi-SSN, so the speed and endurance will be limited. At best we are looking at a Rubis class sub, 4000 tons.

Adjusted for inflation from the 2014 estimate ($750 million) for a Type 094 SSBN, in 2024, it would cost $1 billion. The Type 093B probably costs just as much with all its improvements. Or about 60% more expensive.

Naval Modernisation in South-East Asia

This edited volume analyses the naval arms race in South-East Asia, and reviews the content, purposes and consequences of the naval policies and development of the main countries of the region. The rise of naval capability in the countries of the Asia-Pacific Region is increasingly recognised...

web.archive.org

The Type 041 would costs some where in between, let’s assume $700 million each.

The Type 093B offers the ability to be long range missile carrier in large numbers. Have the range/endurance and very importantly, the speed to do as control over the large area of the Indian Ocean.

In short. It complicates Indian planners work significantly.

I agree for now, go for the Type 041 (but in lieu of, not subsequently to the last 2-4 Hangors). Lease at least one Type 093B and try to build up the economy so you don’t have to make this compromise next time.

Using your philosophy as a guide, hence we should be having J20s instead of J10s. It is not how procurements work; instead, it follow certain guidelines, such as determining what is most cost-effective and aligns with the doctrine.

I rest my case.

 

[FuturePAF]

It was a typo "briefed" ..



Using your philosophy as a guide, hence we should be having J20s instead of J10s. It is not how procurements work; instead, it follow certain guidelines, such as determining what is most cost-effective and aligns with the doctrine.

I rest my case.

You’re right, it comes back to doctrine. But I think the doctrine should be expanded. Just like the J-31 offers the PAF the possibility to do deep strikes in enemy territory, a true SSN would allow the PN to do the same via the sea.

If the SSK-N can do those missions in a cost effective manner, more power to ya, but I guess only time will tell. Frankly, I think it’s our budget limitations or the navy doesn’t want to take on more than it can handle, doctrinally.

 

[Qureshi]

You’re right, it comes back to doctrine. But I think the doctrine should be expanded. Just like the J-31 offers the PAF the possibility to do deep strikes in enemy territory, a true SSN would allow the PN to do the same via the sea.

If the SSK-N can do those missions in a cost effective manner, more power to ya, but I guess only time will tell. Frankly, I think it’s our budget limitations or the navy doesn’t want to take on more than it can handle, doctrinally.

Defense acquisitions are not hindered by budgetary constraints; the three armed forces' shopping lists from 2015 onward are self-expanding and revolve around what fits the doctrine.

Given that PN is in advance stage of finalizing the type/design for its shallow water SSPs (Fincantieri S-1000), type 41 - SSK-N is the ideal option as it fulfils the requirements of the three layer defense by employing ultramodern/modern SSPs, SSKs, SSK-Ns in three distinct tonnage categories (Light, Medium, and Heavy).

- S1000 - Shallow Water AIP-SSP (Light)
- A90Bs - SSKs (Light/Medium)
- 039Bs - SSKs (Medium)
- 041?? - SSK/N (Medium/Heavy)

IMO, with above said (if accomplished) there isn't any need of heavy SSN.

 

[FuturePAF]

Defense acquisitions are not hindered by budgetary constraints; the three armed forces' shopping lists from 2015 onward are self-expanding and revolve around what fits the doctrine.

Given that PN is in advance stage of finalizing the type/design for its shallow water SSPs (Fincantieri S-1000), type 41 - SSK-N is the ideal option as it fulfils the requirements of the three layer defense by employing ultramodern/modern SSPs, SSKs, SSK-Ns in three distinct tonnage categories (Light, Medium, and Heavy).

- S1000 - Shallow Water AIP-SSP (Light)
- A90Bs - SSKs (Light/Medium)
- 039Bs - SSKs (Medium)
- 041?? - SSK/N (Medium/Heavy)

IMO, with above said (if accomplished) there isn't any need of heavy SSN.

If that is their doctrine at the moment, sure, that fleet composition fits.

It might also be that SSNs are politically off the table, if they aren’t off the table financially.

1. China may not have offered them so why both asking. Perhaps if CPEC gets back on track and Pakistan from Pruitt back to high priority country for China, it may be back on the table.
2. If the PN gets SSNs it may have negative impact on the Pak-US relationship as outlined in a recent US think tank article.

A Threshold Alliance: The China-Pakistan Military Relationship

Geopolitical shifts in South Asia over the past decade, driven by sharper US-China competition, a precipitous decline in China-India relations, and the 2021 withdrawal of US forces from Afghanistan, have pushed the Chinese and Pakistani militaries closer together. The countries’ armies and...

www.usip.org

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/sr-517_threshold-alliance-china-pakistan-military-relationship.pdf

3. China doesn’t have enough of the Type 095 in service to be able to free up older boats for sale.

I think in 10-15 years, the doctrine will need to be expanded.

But principle, good to build up those layers closer in, before going for enough SSNs with enough VLS to function as a modest SSGN/SSBN.

 

[Areesh]

Stop posting such nonsense here

 

[orthodux]

When we will see new Chinese made sub in our port?

 

[Ali_Baba]

Interesting - hopefully not a PN sub : https://www.twz.com/news-features/odd-activity-at-chinese-submarine-shipyard-draws-interest