Chinese Naval Platform & PLAN discussions

[ety]

If a destroyer is used for export, it will definitely not be cheap and beautiful. This is a high-end integrated system that combines offense and defense. Setting aside the high cost of AESA radar and electronic systems, first of all, our destroyer has a large universal vertical launch device, which can be equipped with offensive weapons that clearly surpass frigates. For example, our destroyer is equipped with the Long Sword 10 subsonic cruise missile for long-range ground attacks, with a range of 2500 kilometers. This does not take into account future improved missiles, which means that the offensive potential of this platform far exceeds that of defensive frigates. It's not that I'm boasting. Selling this type of general-purpose destroyer to a medium-sized military country can affect the balance of the surrounding area. If you don't sell offensive weapons, it's also a sufficient threat as a large air defense destroyer. The reason is still due to the diversity of air defense weapon types. China will not only launch a limited sales destroyer for a single country, at least in my opinion. Secondly, we must consider geopolitical issues. For example, some countries are within the traditional sphere of influence of US military sales, and their equipment systems and maintenance are deeply tied to US military sales. Even if we do not consider politics and only discuss military matters, we can first exclude them. Because the economic cost of changing clothes and the cost of personnel training are not cheap. Next, let's take a look at European destroyers and frigates. Europeans seem to be infatuated with frigates, and as they grow larger, their frigates are even larger than traditional destroyers. For example, the German 10000 ton frigate F-126 is even more exaggerated. This class of frigates is 166 meters long, 21.7 meters wide, and has a full displacement of up to 11000 tons; The shipborne armament consists of one Ottomella 127mm naval gun, two 27mm Rheinland metal MLG27-4.0 rapid fire guns, two Hylams, 16 unit Mk 41, and 8 NSM anti-ship missiles; The tail of the aircraft is equipped with a double hangar and a flight deck. If there is a demand, making slight modifications to the F-126 can easily increase the number of hanging hair units from 16 to 64 or even more. And the F-126 adopts a modular design that can quickly switch between various modules. The US media theater of war stated that the F-126's anti submarine warfare module will apply "the latest active and passive sonar technology". On ships, the combination of European platforms and US weapon systems may be more in-depth than that of Air Force fighter jets. Therefore, when selling large destroyers, you will face the most intense geopolitical competition, compared to traditional frigates with a wider range of options.View attachment 38910

So, China selling 12 052D destroyers to Saudi maybe be not possible, that will sure change the balance of naval powers in the Middle East drastically .

 

[FuturePAF]

Hypersonic speeds are at Mach 5 and above. If an object's motion speed can exceed times the speed of sound, which is 5 Mach, it can be considered hypersonic. In terms of intercepting hypersonic cruise missiles, China will only publicly disclose its live ammunition after it enters service. Precise interception rather than occasional interception of hypersonic cruise missiles is a future project worldwide. For example, the Russian "Zircon" hypersonic cruise missile has been deployed on the Ukrainian battlefield, and whether it has been shot down is still controversial, Based on the existing publicly disclosed interception equipment (consisting of the vertically launched "Sea Red Flag" 9B, 130 naval guns, the tilted launched 24 unit "Red Flag" 10, and 1130 close range anti-aircraft guns), I believe that the effective defense is traditional supersonic/subsonic cruise missiles, short-range tactical missiles, aircraft, and so on.

Export grade HQ 9be, estimated to be better for self use
View attachment 38900

View attachment 38896

So what is current used for effectively neutralize a salvo of Mach supersonic sea skimming anti-ship cruise missiles from stand off range?

 

[guangdongt]

So what is current used for effectively neutralize a salvo of Mach supersonic sea skimming anti-ship cruise missiles from stand off range?

I think unless we establish some strategic relationship with Saudi Arabia, selling the latest 052d destroyers may attract resistance from other countries. According to CCTV's public reports, these latest 052d destroyers are equipped with ultra long range land cruise missiles, sea based mid range anti missile systems, and ultra long range hypersonic anti ship missiles. Any one of these three weapon systems is extremely sensitive and will deter other countries.

 

[ety]

I think unless we establish some strategic relationship with Saudi Arabia, selling the latest 052d destroyers may attract resistance from other countries. According to CCTV's public reports, these latest 052d destroyers are equipped with ultra long range land cruise missiles, sea based mid range anti missile systems, and ultra long range hypersonic anti ship missiles. Any one of these three weapon systems is extremely sensitive and will deter other countries.

China did sell ballistic missiles DF 3 and DF 21 to Saudis, they also have big impact on the region.

 

[FuturePAF]

I think unless we establish some strategic relationship with Saudi Arabia, selling the latest 052d destroyers may attract resistance from other countries. According to CCTV's public reports, these latest 052d destroyers are equipped with ultra long range land cruise missiles, sea based mid range anti missile systems, and ultra long range hypersonic anti ship missiles. Any one of these three weapon systems is extremely sensitive and will deter other countries.

True. The only country China would probably consider selling an export approved version of the Type 052D is Pakistan. Interoperability and secure maintenance facilities in a friendly country will mean a sale to Pakistan is support to the PLAN’s own goal of securing its SLOCs from the Persian gulf to mainland China, while also bogging down India with another way of matching their technological capabilities and maintaining a conventional balance between India and Pakistan.

It fits China’s desire to decrease the chances of war by making Pakistan strong enough to deter war, while slowly building the maintenance facilities in the region should China need them.

 

[guangdongt]

China did sell ballistic missiles DF 3 and DF 21 to Saudis, they also have big impact on the region.

The sale of medium range ballistic missiles by China to Saudi Arabia is a special trading relationship that can be linked to the trading history of the 1980s, and neighboring countries, including the international community, have also assumed the existence of this relationship. But I have doubts about whether this type of transaction will expand, especially regarding the possibility of land based long-range attack cruise missiles/mid range sea based anti missile systems/hypersonic long-range anti-ship missiles being packaged and sold together with the latest 052d warships. This already involves the most advanced Chinese naval strategic equipment currently in service, and the performance of the Dongfeng 3 was not the most advanced ballistic missile internationally when it was sold in the 1980s. We sell Dongfeng 21 and we also have better strategic missiles than Dongfeng 21. Among the three weapons, the most likely is the Long Sword 10 subsonic cruise to land attack cruise missile. The United States has the Tomahawk, and this type of land to land cruise missile is not uncommon internationally. And China also has the Long Sword 100 supersonic cruise missile.

 

[ety]

The sale of medium range ballistic missiles by China to Saudi Arabia is a special trading relationship that can be linked to the trading history of the 1980s, and neighboring countries, including the international community, have also assumed the existence of this relationship. But I have doubts about whether this type of transaction will expand, especially regarding the possibility of land based long-range attack cruise missiles/mid range sea based anti missile systems/hypersonic long-range anti-ship missiles being packaged and sold together with the latest 052d warships. This already involves the most advanced Chinese naval strategic equipment currently in service, and the performance of the Dongfeng 3 was not the most advanced ballistic missile internationally when it was sold in the 1980s. We sell Dongfeng 21 and we also have better strategic missiles than Dongfeng 21. Among the three weapons, the most likely is the Long Sword 10 subsonic cruise to land attack cruise missile. The United States has the Tomahawk, and this type of land to land cruise missile is not uncommon internationally. And China also has the Long Sword 100 supersonic cruise missile.

And China might had sold some missile tech to Iran to balance out.

 

[guangdongt]

And China might had sold some missile tech to Iran to balance out.

I think Iran's ballistic missile technology is also at a very good level internationally. They have proven their country's ballistic missile strength by counterattacking Israel. I personally respect their technological capabilities, and they should have embarked on the path of completely developing ballistic missiles independently

 

[ety]

I think Iran's ballistic missile technology is also at a very good level internationally. They have proven their country's ballistic missile strength by counterattacking Israel. I personally respect their technological capabilities, and they should have embarked on the path of completely developing ballistic missiles independently

I am talking maybe couple of decades ago, I am not sure then.

China sold 90 ballistic missiles to Iran in 1992, worth 200 million US dollars. Why didn’t the United States dare to stop it?​

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[FuturePAF]

The power system of China's 055 destroyer adopts gas turbines, which have several advantages: high single unit power, good starting and acceleration performance, light weight, small size, strong independent operation ability and good vitality of the unit, and low vibration and noise. For ships with high acceleration requirements, such as main destroyers, gas turbines are generally used. Due to the strong emphasis on acceleration and high speed, gas turbines also have several drawbacks: they are sensitive to environmental conditions, cannot achieve direct reverse, require specialized reverse devices, have poor fuel efficiency, and have a large cross-sectional area of the intake and exhaust channels. Please note that the last point is that all ships using gas turbines, regardless of the country, require thick exhaust chimneys and large independent air intakes, which are standard features of gas turbine ships. Compared to other engines, diesel engines have the advantages of direct reverse rotation, high fuel efficiency, better resistance to impact and vibration, smaller space occupied by the intake and exhaust channels, and easier arrangement of the unit in the cabin. Disadvantages: Low single machine efficiency and high vibration noise. For ships that require very strong acceleration, diesel power is not suitable. In addition, diesel engines are not suitable for ships that require very strong anti submarine operations. In terms of the design of China's Type 054B frigate, the rear mast layout of the Type 054B frigate is very similar to that of the Type 054A frigate, without a thick exhaust chimney or a huge independent air intake, which is very different from the Type 052D series destroyers. From this perspective, it is highly likely that the Type 054B frigate did not use gas turbines, but instead used a new diesel engine system. The Type 054A frigate is a 4000 ton class frigate, equipped with four 16PA6V280STC medium speed diesel engines, with a maximum speed of 27 knots and an economic range of about 4000 nautical miles. The original technology of the 16PA6V280STC medium speed diesel engine came from France. It was produced in the late 1990s through technology transfer and authorization from SEMTPielstick in France. It has the characteristics of high efficiency and high reliability. The 054b frigate weighs 6000 tons and cannot use the engine of the 054a as it will result in insufficient power. According to online reports, China's self-developed CS16V27 medium and high speed diesel engine is a new generation of medium and high speed marine diesel engines. This diesel engine adopts advanced technologies such as efficient combustion, high turbocharging, electronic injection control, low noise, and modularity. It has third-generation marine diesel engine technology features such as high power density, intelligent control, low fuel consumption, low emissions, high reliability, and modularity, and all technical indicators have reached the international advanced level. Its propulsion power has reached 7280 kilowatts, and its rated power generation has reached 6400 kilowatts. In terms of fuel consumption, the level of this diesel engine is 197 grams per kilowatt hour (propulsion)/195 grams per kilowatt hour (power generation). From a single power perspective, the power of the CS16V27 diesel engine is about 40% higher than that of the 16PA6V-280STC diesel engine. Therefore, if four CS16V27 diesel engines are used as the power system, it can ensure that the 054B frigate reaches its maximum speed, which can basically reach or exceed 30 knots. In other words, this power system can meet the needs of the naval fleet. https://mq.mbd.baidu.com/r/1i9bCw8lnIA?f=cp&u=6d4ffcfcc20a478d

追赶世界第一，对比德法舰艇柴油动力，中国水平到底如何？

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054b
View attachment 36026
View attachment 36021cs16v27
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The post I came looking for.

Are these new diesel engine quiet enough, compared to gas turbines, to allow the Type 054B to do ASW with the same level of quietness? If not, than for all its benefits, the diesel engine may not be worth it if the ship can’t do ASW in a competitive manner.

 

[guangdongt]

The post I came looking for.

Are these new diesel engine quiet enough, compared to gas turbines, to allow the Type 054B to do ASW with the same level of quietness? If not, than for all its benefits, the diesel engine may not be worth it if the ship can’t do ASW in a competitive manner.

This is exactly what I want to emphasize. The cycle from planning to actual construction of 054b is particularly long. I remember there was a discussion online in 2010 about 054b, and the reason why it appeared so late will not be due to updates in electronic systems and radar. Just look at the development of destroyers. It is very likely that it is an update of the power system, and the 054b may undertake anti submarine missions. If it is inferred from its construction layout that it uses a diesel engine, then the new diesel engine must be reliable, quiet, and have sufficient power, because the radar device used by the 054b appeared on Chinese test ships a long time ago. The construction of the 6000 ton 054b so late in China is enough to demonstrate the technological progress of the new diesel engine

 

[gambit]

Say remodeled after US army, it's an overstatement no doubt.

No, it is not an overstatement. If anything, it is an understatement.

For example, the Chinese army still has the commissar system embedded that is essential to the PLA, and where is the commissar system in US army ?

You need such a position because the CPC treats the PLA as its own, not of the country.

Sure, PLA learned some lessons from the Desert Storm in the Gulf War.

Yes, that the PLA was %90 worthless on everything about it, from its organization to doctrines.

 

[Beijingwalker]

Yes, that the PLA was %90 worthless on everything about it, from its organization to doctrines.

lol, "90% worthless" was still able to push you guys back halfway through Korea.
Maybe US army is "99%" worthless

 

[ety]

No, it is not an overstatement. If anything, it is an understatement.


You need such a position because the CPC treats the PLA as its own, not of the country.


Yes, that the PLA was %90 worthless on everything about it, from its organization to doctrines.

Lol, your most modern war doctrine of fighting terrorism sure is worthless to PLA, period. PLA has its own doctrine of war, don't take credit you don't deserve, you have no real idea of PLA and are just making boasts to gratify yourselves, silly. And your doctrine of Run Away Chicken Army sure is useless to the PLA.

Don't make a fool of yourself, in the PLA army, for example, the units below the army level are directly brigade and then battalion, the PLA army had reformed and eliminated the division and regiment levels all together to fight modern war. In the US army structure, the division and regiment units are still present below the army level. Where did PLA copy or model after your Run Away army, Lol.

 

[FuturePAF]

This is exactly what I want to emphasize. The cycle from planning to actual construction of 054b is particularly long. I remember there was a discussion online in 2010 about 054b, and the reason why it appeared so late will not be due to updates in electronic systems and radar. Just look at the development of destroyers. It is very likely that it is an update of the power system, and the 054b may undertake anti submarine missions. If it is inferred from its construction layout that it uses a diesel engine, then the new diesel engine must be reliable, quiet, and have sufficient power, because the radar device used by the 054b appeared on Chinese test ships a long time ago. The construction of the 6000 ton 054b so late in China is enough to demonstrate the technological progress of the new diesel engine

They may say that or they have accepted performance trade offs; noise level vs. career life probability it will matter compared to fuel costs/range.

Btw, yes I remember the test ship with the two sided area being tested about a decade ago.