Chinese SAC - FC-31/J-35 5th Gen Stealth Aircraft

[Deino]

Any idea what kind of thrust we can expect from WS-21?

You don't like or agree with the thrust figures I gave above?

You are not comparing like with like.

It is not total thrust but T/W ratio that is important.

F414 is 9:1 whereas the WS-19 will be between 10-11:1. I am leaning towards 11:1 but we will find out eventually as this plane will be exported

Rick is not being sceptical but showing his clear lack of knowledge or bias by stating the WS-19 is comparable to F414/EJ-2000. It would be like comparing J-35A as being comparable to Euroghter!

Indeed I'm not comparing T/W ratio but only thrust ... and again, Rick has quite a decent understanding on that matter. So what you call on him as "lack of knowledge or bias" against China is something I would call on you in return as a too positive bias but also "lack of knowledge"!

Again, based on what I rate realistic, 100-110 kN at best for the WS-19 vs 93.2 kN for the WS-21, that's indeed about 7.3 - 18 % more. 116 kN would be even + 24 %. ... or is my Math wrong??

But again I would rather prefer to wait.

 

[Michael]

WS-21 is the ultimate evolution of the last generation engine core, whereas WS-19 is current geneation engine, if it consider the new engine in development for next-gen Chinese fighter next-generatuion.

I would expect 10-15% more thrust from WS-19.

I'm not an aero engine expert to analyze some of the specialized knowledge.
I understand from some available knowledge that turbofan engine design is not a matter of more thrust is better. It is a matter of design tradeoffs and parameter balancing. For example, the F135 does have a lot of thrust, but it is traded off with the ability to give up some other parameters.
Design is an art of compromise and balance.

 

[UKBengali]

You don't like or agree with the thrust figures I gave above?



Indeed I'm not comparing T/W ratio but only thrust ... and again, Rick has quite a decent understanding on that matter. So what you call on him as "lack of knowledge or bias" against China is something I would call on you in return as a too positive bias but also "lack of knowledge"!

Again, based on what I rate realistic, 100-110 kN at best for the WS-19 vs 93.2 kN for the WS-21, that's indeed about 7.3 - 18 % more. 116 kN would be even + 24 %. ... or is my Math wrong??

But again I would rather prefer to wait.

As both the f414 and Ws-13 are around 1100kg in weight they can be compared in terms of thrust. EJ-2000 is 10% lighter.

Now F414 reaches 98kN and so WS-19 should be able to reach 110kN as it using a more advanced core to start off with. I think that WS-21 may get close to 100kN as apart from the WS-13 core, they will use technologies they learnt from developing Ws-15.

Edit - China has form in delivering very high thrust engines for their generation as the current engine in J-10(WS-10C) reportedly delivers 9:1 t/W ratio. The most powerful US competitor F110-GE-132 only gets up to 8:1.

 

[UKBengali]

I'm not an aero engine expert to analyze some of the specialized knowledge.
I understand from some available knowledge that turbofan engine design is not a matter of more thrust is better. It is a matter of design tradeoffs and parameter balancing. For example, the F135 does have a lot of thrust, but it is traded off with the ability to give up some other parameters.
Design is an art of compromise and balance.

With WS-19 higher dry thrust(supercruise) would be better than much higher wet thrust.

 

[Afif]

As both the f414 and Ws-13 are around 1100kg in weight they can be compared in terms of thrust. EJ-2000 is 10% lighter.

Now F414 reaches 98kN and so WS-19 should be able to reach 110kN as it using a more advanced core to start off with. I think that WS-21 may get close to 100kN as apart from the WS-13 core, they will use technologies they learnt from developing Ws-15.

F414 has 116kn variant.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

As both the f414 and Ws-13 are around 1100kg in weight they can be compared in terms of thrust. EJ-2000 is 10% lighter.

Now F414 reaches 98kN and so WS-19 should be able to reach 110kN as it using a more advanced core to start off with. I think that WS-21 may get close to 100kN as apart from the WS-13 core, they will use technologies they learnt from developing Ws-15.

Edit - China has form in delivering very high thrust engines for their generation as the current engine in J-10(WS-10C) reportedly delivers 9:1 t/W ration. The most powerful US competitor F110-GE-132 only gets up to 8:1.

And superhornets and EF 2000 are much lighter jets than compared with to J35A

 

[UKBengali]

And superhornets and EF 2000 are much lighter jets than compared with to J35A

That post makes zero sense in the context of the discussion.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

That post makes zero sense in the context of the discussion.

EF 200 and F-414 don't need a T/W ratio of 10 or above so overall Typhoon and superhornet with EF-200 and F-414 have good T/W ratio no need to have a T/W ratio of 10 but as for J35A WS19 has a must T/W of 10 because without it can't supercruise and need continuous afterburner to acceleration during the maneuverability/agility that's kills the stealth

 

[enroger]

With WS-19 higher dry thrust(supercruise) would be better than much higher wet thrust.

What is more important than thrust or TWR is the thrust curve, that is the engine performance over range of atmospheric pressure and Mach number. Most critically the plane's super cruise capability hinges on the performance in high altitude and trans/supersonic regime.

Engine thrust curves varies dramatically depending on lots of factors. The thrust figure we get is usually just the static thrust at sea level, which really does not tell us a lot. So I won't get too hung up on the figure

 

[Deino]

Not sure if true:

歼-35绰号“蓝鲨”
歼-35A绰号“耀龙”

Great, so we have?

J-35A = 耀龙 = Yàolóng = Glorious Dragon
J-20 = 威龙 = Wēilóng = Mighty Dragon
J-10 = 猛龙 = Měnglóng = Vigorous Dragon
JF-17 = 枭龙 = Xiāolóng = Fierce Dragon


via
DS北风（风哥）/ @WenJian0922 on Twitter/X

 

[Oscar]

Not sure if true:



Great, so we have?

J-35A = 耀龙 = Yàolóng = Glorious Dragon
J-20 = 威龙 = Wēilóng = Mighty Dragon
J-10 = 猛龙 = Měnglóng = Vigorous Dragon
JF-17 = 枭龙 = Xiāolóng = Fierce Dragon


via
DS北风（风哥）/ @WenJian0922 on Twitter/X

So no “Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon”
So disappointing.

 

[MrManiac]

So no “Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon”
So disappointing.

That's for H-20

 

[Michael]

J-35A = 耀龙 = Yàolóng = Glorious Dragon
J-20 = 威龙 = Wēilóng = Mighty Dragon
J-10 = 猛龙 = Měnglóng = Vigorous Dragon
JF-17 = 枭龙 = Xiāolóng = Fierce Dragon

The J-35 Chinese nickname is “蓝鲨”. Its provenance is based on the insignia in this photo. However, it is unclear to us whether the badge is an official one or a homemade one made by a military fan.

The J-35A Chinese nickname is “耀龙”. Its original provenance was based on a certain senior bigwig figure in Chinese social media military fan circles. Here's a screenshot of the original article.

Please note! These are unofficial messages.

That's for H-20

In the PLA's sequence of naming rules, the bombers are named using the “神” series.

 

[sutton9999]

I am expecting 12 tons for ws-19.
Remember we were expecting 15.9 tons for ws-15.

 

[Vi-va]

You don't like or agree with the thrust figures I gave above?



Indeed I'm not comparing T/W ratio but only thrust ... and again, Rick has quite a decent understanding on that matter. So what you call on him as "lack of knowledge or bias" against China is something I would call on you in return as a too positive bias but also "lack of knowledge"!

Again, based on what I rate realistic, 100-110 kN at best for the WS-19 vs 93.2 kN for the WS-21, that's indeed about 7.3 - 18 % more. 116 kN would be even + 24 %. ... or is my Math wrong??

But again I would rather prefer to wait.

F-22A Thrust/weight: 1.08 (1.25 with loaded weight and 50% internal fuel)
Super cruise: Mach 1.76, 1,162 mph (1,010 kn; 1,870 km/h) at altitude

I think J-35A has a bit higher lift coefficent, much lower empty weight, smaller sectional area, smaller drag power.

If J-35A wants to match F-22A on speed and super cruise capability(I think this should be a reasonable requirement), we can calculate ws-19 dry thrust easily.