Egyptian Armed Forces
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Ghostkiller
Registered Member
There is a a thread made for this war on this forum
HAIDER
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
I was searching for, thanks I will check and repost
Ghostkiller
Registered Member
October 1973 Ramadan War
The strategic_deception plan for the October War...full details ■ Did you know that Egypt has succeeded in deceiving the entire world, including the Soviets, and completely blinded them from watching and expecting a comprehensive war to reclaim the land with hundreds of thousands of soldiers...
defencepk.com
GoMig-21
Elite Member
That young?! I definitely agree with you that he was definitely joking about them shutting him up, also the part where he said otherwise it wouldn't be worth it and would nullifying or revoke it since it's been 6 years since the signing of the treaty.
But there's no question that the specificity of the 3 items he mentioned requested were quite intriguing. That's what gets me, along with their correlation to the CISMOA.
On top of all that, everything makes complete sense. When you combine all factors, it really makes you wonder if there was something out there whether a publication or an announcement of those specific requests but they never caught on by anyone. Probably unlikely, but where would he come up with such specifics and talk about them as if they were fact? If it was just hyperbole on his part, it's still interesting because there has to be something significant that the Egyptian Armed Forces are looking for, either similar to his 3 items or something close.
And speaking of CISMOA, there's also the alleged events in Yemen (@The SC might be able to fill us in a bit more on the specifics of that) which was most likely the tipping point that pushed the signing of the treaty.
The story goes like this: During Egypt's involvement in the Yemen campaign, the RSAF & UAEAF fighter jets weren't able to conduct their advanced comms with the EAF and that Egypt's participation was more of a hindrance than a helpful alliance because EAF F-16 lacked the specific communications systems that come with signing CISMOA. But it goes further than that because rumor was that both Saudiya & the UAE basically told the EAF to pack its bags and go home. Naturally that was about as humiliating as it can get. According to several publications, the Yemen experience was the straw that broke the camel's back, no pun intended.
When you look at some of the details in CISMOA as it relates to Egypt only since the structure and the language in the treaty's structuring makes it adaptable to many different scenarios for the purpose of flexibility in order to customize it, so to speak, for each individual country and its relationship with the United States. So, for Egypt and its super sensitivity to its sovereignty principles, there's a few sections of the treaty that I found rather interesting and quite relevant to the Egyptian model.
CISMOA ensures the security and secrecy of advanced U.S. communications equipment and components on a partner country’s military aircraft, ships, and other platforms. Agreeing to a CISMOA gives a country access to sensitive U.S. technology and increases interoperability by allowing the weapon systems of the U.S. and other coalition nations with CISMOAs to communicate, understand military codes and encryptions, and share high quality data. Global Position Systems (GPS) are also enhanced and more accurate. Lack of a CISMOA restricts what information coalition nations can share with each other and limits their ability to effectively operate together and have real time communications.
Here comes the critical part I mentioned behind the drive & final push to sign CISMOA.
Egyptians are extremely leery of external influences on their domestic affairs and tints Egypt’s relations with the other nations.
With the CISMOA signing, in theory, Egypt should be able to acquire the weapons that any other CISMOA signatory country is able to procure from the U.S., such as F-15s, precision GPS missiles, and the French SCALP cruise missile, which contains U.S. components which were previously blocked due to a lack of a CISMOA, for its Rafale aircraft. However, the first, big test will come with Egypt’s request to buy ten Boeing AH-64 Apache E helicopters and accessories, valued at $1 billion. Some of the requested items include CISMOA components and the U.S. Department of State approved the sale, although it must still receive U.S. Congressional approval, and just because Egypt requests CISMOA related items, it still does not mean they will ultimately be approved.
The bolded part is quite relevant in this whole picture because it also makes those 3 requested items even more plausible. All the EAF's precision munitions prior to all of this were laser guided and they needed to get in on the GPS circuit club not just in general, but also specifically for the SCALPs from MBDA for the first batch of Rafales and any additional or future weapons that the Rafale can fire to optimize its lethality. Most likely another reason why we've seen them make a big effort in Egypt's space program with EgySat etc., even including military satellites within the contract parameters of other weapons platforms purchases like the Bergamini FREMM frigates and Navantia and I think one of the French orders included a satellite but don't quote me on that. The AL-Tariqs PGMs also play a big part in this entire dynamic.
Going back to the Yemen experience being the final driving factor to signing the CISMOA, another publication brought this up:
There is much speculation on why Egypt signed a CISMOA after the history of rejecting it. Some see it as Egypt’s desire to obtain more advance weapons, and a U.S. willingness to cooperate at a higher of sophistication and interaction. However, the real reason Egypt signed a CISMOA is because it was shamed into it by fellow Arab nations. The Egyptian air force participated in the Saudi led coalition in an air campaign against Houthi rebels in Yemen in 2015 and 2016, but due to a lack of a CISMOA, its aircraft were unable to effectively operate with the other Arab aircraft which used CISMOA enabled communications. The Egyptian air force was more of a hazard than a helper. According to former U.S. Embassy Cairo officials, the Egyptian air force was told to pack up and go home, a true humiliation for a country that sees itself as having the most effective Arab military in the region.
There it is. The straw that broke the camel's back. Without CISMOA, not only was the EAF limited with its legacy aircraft, but with other systems as well. Despite the high level of training and constant flying and exercises and whatever other procedures they put in place to augment their capabilities and most likely could get by in times of war considering they've developed their own comms with RISC-2/3/4/5, it's still pretty hampering. No ifs ands or buts about it.
Put all that together and I wouldn't doubt the high probability that they specifically requested the interoperability & comms features with CISMOA, but precisely the Viper upgrade (likely for all the block 40 & 52 Falcons), the 600 AMRAAMs (probably the AIM-120C-7/8 and the 1,400 M1A2SEPv3 upgrade kits.
If we look at some other similar instances, I use the Pakistan Air Force example. When they cooperated with the US in 2002 for the Afghanistan campaign, they most likely used that to make leverage the deal for their F-16s MLU and good on them. That's how these things work. Part of that package was the purchase of 500 AIM-120C-5s which IIRC, they received in 2006. That's right around the same number of missiles in this supposed EAF CISMOA request.
Viper upgrade also only makes sense to maximize the AMRAAMs & PGMs capabilities among other reasons and the Abrams kits also make sense.
I hope we hear something along those lines really soon, if not that then the F-15/Su-35 saga really needs to be resolved because this sucks being in the dark like this.
BTW, speaking of Su-35, our buddy from Sahaat el 3skarreyya has finally come to the realization that the Su-35S deal is done in one of his latest videos, and his new desire is now the J-10C.
Parallel_Politics
Registered Member
That young?! I definitely agree with you that he was definitely joking about them shutting him up, also the part where he said otherwise it wouldn't be worth it and would nullifying or revoke it since it's been 6 years since the signing of the treaty.
But there's no question that the specificity of the 3 items he mentioned requested were quite intriguing. That's what gets me, along with their correlation to the CISMOA.
On top of all that, everything makes complete sense. When you combine all factors, it really makes you wonder if there was something out there whether a publication or an announcement of those specific requests but they never caught on by anyone. Probably unlikely, but where would he come up with such specifics and talk about them as if they were fact? If it was just hyperbole on his part, it's still interesting because there has to be something significant that the Egyptian Armed Forces are looking for, either similar to his 3 items or something close.
And speaking of CISMOA, there's also the alleged events in Yemen (@The SC might be able to fill us in a bit more on the specifics of that) which was most likely the tipping point that pushed the signing of the treaty.
The story goes like this: During Egypt's involvement in the Yemen campaign, the RSAF & UAEAF fighter jets weren't able to conduct their advanced comms with the EAF and that Egypt's participation was more of a hindrance than a helpful alliance because EAF F-16 lacked the specific communications systems that come with signing CISMOA. But it goes further than that because rumor was that both Saudiya & the UAE basically told the EAF to pack its bags and go home. Naturally that was about as humiliating as it can get. According to several publications, the Yemen experience was the straw that broke the camel's back, no pun intended.
When you look at some of the details in CISMOA as it relates to Egypt only since the structure and the language in the treaty's structuring makes it adaptable to many different scenarios for the purpose of flexibility in order to customize it, so to speak, for each individual country and its relationship with the United States. So, for Egypt and its super sensitivity to its sovereignty principles, there's a few sections of the treaty that I found rather interesting and quite relevant to the Egyptian model.
CISMOA ensures the security and secrecy of advanced U.S. communications equipment and components on a partner country’s military aircraft, ships, and other platforms. Agreeing to a CISMOA gives a country access to sensitive U.S. technology and increases interoperability by allowing the weapon systems of the U.S. and other coalition nations with CISMOAs to communicate, understand military codes and encryptions, and share high quality data. Global Position Systems (GPS) are also enhanced and more accurate. Lack of a CISMOA restricts what information coalition nations can share with each other and limits their ability to effectively operate together and have real time communications.
Here comes the critical part I mentioned behind the drive & final push to sign CISMOA.
Egyptians are extremely leery of external influences on their domestic affairs and tints Egypt’s relations with the other nations.
With the CISMOA signing, in theory, Egypt should be able to acquire the weapons that any other CISMOA signatory country is able to procure from the U.S., such as F-15s, precision GPS missiles, and the French SCALP cruise missile, which contains U.S. components which were previously blocked due to a lack of a CISMOA, for its Rafale aircraft. However, the first, big test will come with Egypt’s request to buy ten Boeing AH-64 Apache E helicopters and accessories, valued at $1 billion. Some of the requested items include CISMOA components and the U.S. Department of State approved the sale, although it must still receive U.S. Congressional approval, and just because Egypt requests CISMOA related items, it still does not mean they will ultimately be approved.
The bolded part is quite relevant in this whole picture because it also makes those 3 requested items even more plausible. All the EAF's precision munitions prior to all of this were laser guided and they needed to get in on the GPS circuit club not just in general, but also specifically for the SCALPs from MBDA for the first batch of Rafales and any additional or future weapons that the Rafale can fire to optimize its lethality. Most likely another reason why we've seen them make a big effort in Egypt's space program with EgySat etc., even including military satellites within the contract parameters of other weapons platforms purchases like the Bergamini FREMM frigates and Navantia and I think one of the French orders included a satellite but don't quote me on that. The AL-Tariqs PGMs also play a big part in this entire dynamic.
Going back to the Yemen experience being the final driving factor to signing the CISMOA, another publication brought this up:
There is much speculation on why Egypt signed a CISMOA after the history of rejecting it. Some see it as Egypt’s desire to obtain more advance weapons, and a U.S. willingness to cooperate at a higher of sophistication and interaction. However, the real reason Egypt signed a CISMOA is because it was shamed into it by fellow Arab nations. The Egyptian air force participated in the Saudi led coalition in an air campaign against Houthi rebels in Yemen in 2015 and 2016, but due to a lack of a CISMOA, its aircraft were unable to effectively operate with the other Arab aircraft which used CISMOA enabled communications. The Egyptian air force was more of a hazard than a helper. According to former U.S. Embassy Cairo officials, the Egyptian air force was told to pack up and go home, a true humiliation for a country that sees itself as having the most effective Arab military in the region.
There it is. The straw that broke the camel's back. Without CISMOA, not only was the EAF limited with its legacy aircraft, but with other systems as well. Despite the high level of training and constant flying and exercises and whatever other procedures they put in place to augment their capabilities and most likely could get by in times of war considering they've developed their own comms with RISC-2/3/4/5, it's still pretty hampering. No ifs ands or buts about it.
Put all that together and I wouldn't doubt the high probability that they specifically requested the interoperability & comms features with CISMOA, but precisely the Viper upgrade (likely for all the block 40 & 52 Falcons), the 600 AMRAAMs (probably the AIM-120C-7/8 and the 1,400 M1A2SEPv3 upgrade kits.
If we look at some other similar instances, I use the Pakistan Air Force example. When they cooperated with the US in 2002 for the Afghanistan campaign, they most likely used that to make leverage the deal for their F-16s MLU and good on them. That's how these things work. Part of that package was the purchase of 500 AIM-120C-5s which IIRC, they received in 2006. That's right around the same number of missiles in this supposed EAF CISMOA request.
Viper upgrade also only makes sense to maximize the AMRAAMs & PGMs capabilities among other reasons and the Abrams kits also make sense.
I hope we hear something along those lines really soon, if not that then the F-15/Su-35 saga really needs to be resolved because this sucks being in the dark like this.
BTW, speaking of Su-35, our buddy from Sahaat el 3skarreyya has finally come to the realization that the Su-35S deal is done in one of his latest videos, and his new desire is now the J-10C.
You see, it's important to scrutinize any and all sources in order to gain a clearer perspective on these Issues. I'm betting you the whole 600 AMRAAMS number is either made up, or he used Tactical Report (whose primary sources of information include their own a**). The EAF is definitely better off with CISMOA-approved comms and tech, but this type of information needs to be taken with a grain of salt, especially since the real issue has and will always be the QME.
The whole communications rumor started out by a paper called Middle East Eye. It's a UK-Based Qatari-Brotherhood funded site that's been in the business of attacking Egypt (and other arab governments) for a long time. This was at the time of the Arab quartet boycott of Qatar. Then, our good and completely nonpartial (wink wink) friends at Carnegie used them as a reference on that point.
Just think about it. If this is true, then how exactly did the Egyptian air force communicate with other air forces during the countless Bright Star exercises? How do they communicate with each other regularly? How did they communicate with Saudi, Bahraini, Emirati, and Greek air forces during the countless exercises that they conduct? You mean to tell me after all of that they just spontaneously discovered a communication issue after all these exercises and two years of Egypt being in the coalition after the air operations dialed down?
In addition, what incredibly potent electronic warfare means do the Houthis have that would make highly encrypted comms even an issue? Never mind all that, what was the size of the air strike/interception mission that makes this scenario plausible. Even if true, does the Saudi military not have the necessary ground comms to facilitate this coordination (keeping in mind that KSA operates many of the same radars that the EAF operates)?
The point about the country's standoff precision strike capabilities is valid, but again not in the houthi case. The Al Tariq guidance kit, in addition to other types provided by many other sources, are appealing not just because of their range and precision but also because they can be easily installed without any modifications to the aircraft itself. Don't even get me started on the production PGM's by the military long before that (not just laser-guided).
You know what, let's forget all that. Literally ALL of the IRAN/Houthi cruise and ballistic missiles are guided by civilian GPS. By following that logic, the precision of their missiles would be zero. Also, the writer in one of the articles said that the MISSILES were laser guided. I mean, come on. So the harpoon was laser-guided before CISMOA?
Finally, the issue with the SCALP deal had nothing to do with CISMOA but with ITAR. Even the retired Israeli colonel who wrote that article used the words "maybe" and "Probably" in that respect and others. Once again, the issue is the QME first and foremost.
As for the Su-35 deal/F-15 saga, I can't wait for it to be over as well! But for now, all we can do is watch :/
you mean the j-10c ?
Ghostkiller
Registered Member
GoMig-21
Elite Member
Welcome.
Pretty sure that's what seems to be what the EAF is thinking now. All signs point in that direction from CAATSA and what the US has done to the relationship by concentrating so much on the QME that it's finally getting to the Egyptian Armed Forces where they've had enough of it. I'm very happy to see them at least threaten to move in that direction if the US doesn't start playing serious ball. Enough is really enough.
Ultimately, I would rather see the F-16 fleet get a huge boost like what we were just talking about with the Viper upgrade & AMRAAMs and Abram kits, then combined with the Rafales the EAF would have a rather potent AF. But all the posturing and loyalty to the zionist which brings zero return to the United States in any beneficial way is not only disgusting, but it's ruining the US/Egyptian military relationship.
So if the US wants to play the game that way, then hello China. Why not. With the rumors of producing the PL-15E locally among other China tech rumors, that gives it even more plausibility.
On a separate note, it looks like Mr. Mohammad Zaki has shed the military uniform and moving into the governmental scene, while General Abdel Majeed Saqr has officially taken over charge of the Egyptian Armed Forces. I don't know much about him, but I hope he follows in the lines of Sobhi & Zaki. He has some big shoes to fill.
GoMig-21
Elite Member
I love this guy LOL! How is he so sure the Barracuda deal is done? Oh my God he's talking about 3arousa w'mes3aref eh looooool and the only thing backing all of this excitement is a prediction in La Tribune that IF, if there would be a signing with all these French military dignitaries meeting with Egyptian Naval delegations and a deal "possibly" reached, then the first deliveries would be around 2026. But nothing says anything that there's been signatures signed on any contract lol?! He seems really confident I like it very much. Let's see and let's hope that doesn't bite him in the ass like his Su-35 prediction. Remember he said he saw 17 of them in Egyptian hangars, right? Wasn't that the exact thing he said? I don't want to accuse him of inaccuracies since that wouldn't be fair at all and I actually like the guy lol. His sincerity is genuine and obviously is about as patriotic as can be. But the Su-35 saga bit A LOT of people in the ass and took off huge chunks of flesh IIRC loooooooooooool. Except for you, Ramses, Ghost, PP and yours truly we kept saying it's a done deal fellas but many, including Marker kept hanging on to false hopes.
BTW, what he was saying about the military only using 3% of the GDP for military purchases (justifying this possible 4-6 Barracuda submarines purchase) and how it carried the country during the revolution including paying government salaries etc. basically saying that the military has its own budget is actually fascinating bigtime because guess what? Do you remember years ago when fellas were asking us where the hell was Egypt getting all this money to buy Rafales, Mistrals, Ka-52s, MiG-29s, FREMMs, Gowinds and S-300s and we were telling them that the military has its own money separate from the country's institutions and that during Mubarak's time, it didn't even touch a single piaster of those funds and that they had accumulated to possibly around $35 billion? Do you remember us telling these fellas that exact thing SC? And they laughed at us saying we were full of shit and that all of these weapons' systems were being financed by SA & UAE? lol, how fun is vindication, bro?
GoMig-21
Elite Member
As much as these could use the M1A2SEPv3 upgrade kits, they're also just fine the way they are. This is a beastmode tank being employed by a military with a huge tank warfare history & experience.
And the M60A3s are also still excellent tanks, capable of doing the job and doing it well. Our landscape is more of the wide-open desert range than any urban or mountainous landscape were that would be the most common setting for the type of tank battles that would occur. Much different than what we've been seeing in terms of tank warfare in the last 20 years or so. As a matter of fact, the last major tank battle involved the M1 Abrams in Iraq and for most of the open terrain battles that occurred, it did extraordinarily well, including the urban battles of that region.
The way these guys recline back up against the hatch covers of those YPRs.
And the M60A3s are also still excellent tanks, capable of doing the job and doing it well. Our landscape is more of the wide-open desert range than any urban or mountainous landscape were that would be the most common setting for the type of tank battles that would occur. Much different than what we've been seeing in terms of tank warfare in the last 20 years or so. As a matter of fact, the last major tank battle involved the M1 Abrams in Iraq and for most of the open terrain battles that occurred, it did extraordinarily well, including the urban battles of that region.
The way these guys recline back up against the hatch covers of those YPRs.
GoMig-21
Elite Member
%LOL! Did TR mention that same exact number of missiles? Or anything close?
That's right. Which is why any clause in CISMOA that would allow advanced (not even sensitive, just advanced) weapons would get overridden by QME. 100% spot of again which kinda brings up another point, the importance of CISMOA? How useful could it really be if it's almost always trumped by QME? Could've also been the reason for the EAF's stagnation in signing it. They had resigned to the fact that it wouldn't make much difference to the things they really wanted, which were much more component-oriented than comms related.
I heard this or something similar which made me think if the Yemen issues were real or not, since there are basic methods of communications anyway that can easily be used, especially when fighting an enemy such as the Houthis. I don't mean to denigrate them whatsoever, not my intention. It's just that they don't represent the typical enemy army that such comms were designed for. Much more elaborate battlefield schemes & positions and objectives and targets and how to attack those. That's what those comms that enable more fluid interoperability are and what the CISMOA clause emphasises.
But when fighting an enemy such as the Houthis, how much of that level of sophistication and technology do you really need? Am I undermining it a bit too much, or does that kinda make sense? They have radar, radio, IFF and many other things they could still use and not be hampered by not having that interconnectivity. Or it could actually be primarily an IFF issue. What do you think?
That's a great point. The only thing I can think of is the benefit of having the proper IFF hardware & software so they get plugged into the same network. As a result, it took them out of the circle, so to speak? That's the only thing I can think of aside from perhaps they couldn't get in on the specific GPS guidance because they don't have the guidance systems needed to plug into the Saudi & UAR network? Getting plugged in would allow them to be part of that network-centric environment which then facilitates objectives and missions etc. That might actually be it. @The SC , what's your opinion, bro? About this alleged Yemen problem? SC, having Saudi heritage might be able to fill us in on some juicy details lol.
That's what I'm saying, no offense to the great & honorable Houthis (considering the tremendous effort they're taking to disrupt zionist shipping in obligation to the Palestinians), but they're not exactly an army as per definition of the term. I'm 100% with you on that.
looooooooool! So true
And speaking of the harpoon missiles, there's another weird story about them speaking of CISMOA. I just need to investigate the story first but it's something along the lines of either the latest harpoon that the EN ordered was blocked because of certain components or something I forget what the reason was exactly and then there were some pictures that appeared online showing large tubes of something completely wrapped in tarps being unloaded from an EAF C-130 alleged to be those harpoon missiles finally haven been approved and delivered. Your fun-poke at the "laser-guided harpoon" looool reminded me of that. I'll look it up and post it, see what you think but no, again, your point is spot on, ma man.Yes, you are correct indeed. I forget why I lumped the SCALP into that conversation. There was a reason but can't think of it now. Too much brain fog from information overload ATM.
Where's that guy who used to give me a super hard time about the Egyptian Su-35? Remember all that mumbo jumbo jive buuuuuulllllssshhhhiiiitte? He would jump ugly all over me simply for saying "I think the Su-35 deal is finished" lol and he would blow a gasket! Forget his username, claimed to be an naval officer or something like that OH YEAH, the joke of the day JOKER88! loool. What a joke is more like it.
Too bad also that the Su-35S is UNFAIRLY getting a bad name in Ukraine. People all over this forum claiming it's doing bad which is far from the truth. They keep peddling the BS narrative that it's old Russian avionics and it's not what the Russians claim it is and all this stuff. I think much of that is driven by the PAF vs IAF riff that's been going on for many decades, now. I can see why they would feel that way but truth is, the VKS has only lost 6 Su-35Ss in Ukraine to date. I also went over the whole reasons for the Russians having a hard time with Patriot missiles and all that in the IRIAF thread I don't wish through all that again. Just that it's one hell of a fighter and pretty sure the EAF would jump on aquring it in a heartbeat if it was possible without being hit with sanctions. But that's over with now we just need to see what the replacement is, eagerly!
BTW, what do you think about the Barracudas and that latest bit of news? Do you think Marker is jumping the gun a little bit? lol
A locally produced FA-50 would be a better option for the EAF with indigenous s.korean LIG Nex1 ESR-500A AESA Radar to replace the Israeli Elta EL/M-2032, Kepd 350k-2 500km bunker-buster cruise missile intended for export, integration of an Air-to-Air missile other than the AMRAAM. On top of that you would get a comprehensive ToT. This will also pave the way for the purchase of KF-21. Instead of upgrading F-16s spending 40-50 million per jet. Egypt could spend that on upgrading its 24 Rafales in service to F4.1 Standard. And upgrading its 30 (or 31) new Rafale F4.1 to F4.2 which is available by 2026. The F4.2 standard will get a new OSF for long range passive IR detection. The MICA NG IR with a range of 80-100km, coupled with the new OSF is a nightmare for any stealth fighter. F4 upgrades also include Thales Scorpion helmet mounted display in order to fully exploit the engagement capabilities after firing. And place a new order for Rafale F5 to be locally manufactured/assembled in Egypt. Which is basically a 5th gen fighter without an internal weapons bay.
