Hangor Class Submarine | Updates & Discussion

[FuturePAF]

The Hangor is based on the type 093B Yuan variant (with the flank arrays as the improvement over the 093A), but the Type 093C comes with a towed array.

Any indication the PN will make the Hangor, at least the later of the 6 subs come with a towed array?

 

[Awwad]

I would love to know how the submariners of today would prefer a few torpedoes, against one 'HVT' in the surface group, from a very close range, over a barrage of AshMs, from a much much longer distance that increases hit probability, and forces the enemy escorts to also save their own skin, rather than concentrate on the now revealed sub....The sub gets spotted either way but it has much higher chance of survival when attacking with stand off missiles....

Why would submariners not want to eliminate their enemy once and for all? Heavy torpedo ends the job. Its a weapon of choice to sink the enemy. On the other hand, there are plenty of air-defense against incoming Anti-ship missiles. Especially in the surface group, every ship will be firing missiles to counter those few antiship missiles that a conventional sub can throw.

However, Weapon of choice eventually depends upon the circumstances:

Torpedoes:

- Against HVT / center piece of fleet like an aircraft carrier:

Submariners know they are the most aggressive component of the navy. If a target is too important like an aircraft carrier and sinking it can make a huge difference in the outcome of war. It is also a huge statement and can demoralize opponent forces then why not go for it? A Submarine can NEVER sink or touch an aircraft carrier with its anti-ship missiles, but it certainly can sink it by patiently waiting in great depth at the path of incoming fleet and firing heavy torpedoes at it. This is something which you could have never done with missiles unless you got 100s of missiles.

- Against 1 or 2 warships:

If there's a lone ship or couple of ships that submarine is after then it will use Torpedoes and finish the job once and for all. This way your chances of survival also increase many folds as your enemy is eliminated (as there were just couple of ships in the area) - If you had fired missiles with little to no effect than ASW helicopters from those ships would have been hovering at your precise location within minutes. So better to finish the job and ensure your survivability.

---- This example happened in real, PNS hangor against 2 IN ASW frigates. PN submarine sunk INS khurki and other frigate escaped. Though there were no missiles at that time but it shows how a submarine can become nightmare for couple of ships.

Missiles
- If the submarine is within range / air cover of its own fleet that enemy ASW aircrafts / ASW helicopters cannot come after it then it can send barrage of missiles.

So using stand off missiles from a defended region. But if you are already going deep into enemy waters then using torpedoes should be weapon of choice.

 

[Khanasifm]

Why would submariners not want to eliminate their enemy once and for all? Heavy torpedo ends the job. Its a weapon of choice to sink the enemy. On the other hand, there are plenty of air-defense against incoming Anti-ship missiles. Especially in the surface group, every ship will be firing missiles to counter those few antiship missiles that a conventional sub can throw.

However, Weapon of choice eventually depends upon the circumstances:

Torpedoes:

- Against HVT / center piece of fleet like an aircraft carrier:

Submariners know they are the most aggressive component of the navy. If a target is too important like an aircraft carrier and sinking it can make a huge difference in the outcome of war. It is also a huge statement and can demoralize opponent forces then why not go for it? A Submarine can NEVER sink or touch an aircraft carrier with its anti-ship missiles, but it certainly can sink it by patiently waiting in great depth at the path of incoming fleet and firing heavy torpedoes at it. This is something which you could have never done with missiles unless you got 100s of missiles.

- Against 1 or 2 warships:

If there's a lone ship or couple of ships that submarine is after then it will use Torpedoes and finish the job once and for all. This way your chances of survival also increase many folds as your enemy is eliminated (as there were just couple of ships in the area) - If you had fired missiles with little to no effect than ASW helicopters from those ships would have been hovering at your precise location within minutes. So better to finish the job and ensure your survivability.

---- This example happened in real, PNS hangor against 2 IN ASW frigates. PN submarine sunk INS khurki and other frigate escaped. Though there were no missiles at that time but it shows how a submarine can become nightmare for couple of ships.

Missiles
- If the submarine is within range / air cover of its own fleet that enemy ASW aircrafts / ASW helicopters cannot come after it then it can send barrage of missiles.

So using stand off missiles from a defended region. But if you are already going deep into enemy waters then using torpedoes should be weapon of choice.

 

[FuturePAF]

I hope the last three of the Hangor class get a section to add at least 6 if not up to 10 VLS to be able to fire a variant of the DF-100 missile (which has a range of 2000-3000km).

Even a smaller variant (which could more easily fit inside the hull with a small bump) with just half the range (1000-1500 km) would be cover much of India’s high value targets from within the EEZ, and be much faster and more capable second strike capability.

Modification to the design to make it into a SLBM/Hypersonic glider missile is probably more survivable than the Babur cruise missile.

Demystifying The DF-100: A Deeper Look At China's Mysterious Cruise Missile

China’s missile arsenal has expanded greatly over the years. Here we will look at one of those missiles shrouded in mystery, the DF-100

www.overtdefense.com

Not unlike the Amur 950 Design, which is a much small sub. The Amur 950’s VLS are suppose to be able to fit the BrahMos missiles. Not small missiles either.

Amur-class submarine - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

These VLS could also be used to host anti-ship missiles, such as a variant the YJ-21.

 

[Awwad]

I hope the last three of the Hangor class get a section to add at least 6 if not up to 10 VLS to be able to fire a variant of the DF-100 missile (which has a range of 2000-3000km).

Even a smaller variant (which could more easily fit inside the hull with a small bump) with just half the range (1000-1500 km) would be cover much of India’s high value targets from within the EEZ, and be much faster and more capable second strike capability.

Modification to the design to make it into a SLBM/Hypersonic glider missile is probably more survivable than the Babur cruise missile.

View attachment 31710

Demystifying The DF-100: A Deeper Look At China's Mysterious Cruise Missile

China’s missile arsenal has expanded greatly over the years. Here we will look at one of those missiles shrouded in mystery, the DF-100

www.overtdefense.com

Not unlike the Amur 950 Design, which is a much small sub. The Amur 950’s VLS are suppose to be able to fit the BrahMos missiles. Not small missiles either.

Amur-class submarine - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

These VLS could also be used to host anti-ship missiles, such as a variant the YJ-21.

I guess this may be possible for locally produced cruise missiles. (next versions of babur CM maybe?) . As I doubt that China will sell 1000-1500 km CM .

Secondly, this would give a very capable land attack option to the Navy. I doubt this would be used as Ashm. But as a long range land attack option. The navy could use its subs to attack even the farthest indian navy bases / ports. A huge advantage indeed.

Another advantage of ship or submarine based long range land attack cruise missile platform is that it complicates enemy's AD. Currently, indian air-defense knows that any projectile / weapon that will come from Pakistan is over the LOC. So their all of air-defense / radars are looking at that one direction. But if you enable ocean as your launching platform then you got more versatile & surprise options with more chances of successful hits as you by pass initial air-defense layers

 

[CSAW]

final KSS III batch 1 by HHI to the ROK Navy

 

[Dreamer]

final KSS III batch 1 by HHI to the ROK Navy

View attachment 31756

Why is it in Hangor Thread? It has no relation to either Hangor class subs or to PN.

 

[FuturePAF]

I guess this may be possible for locally produced cruise missiles. (next versions of babur CM maybe?) . As I doubt that China will sell 1000-1500 km CM .

Secondly, this would give a very capable land attack option to the Navy. I doubt this would be used as Ashm. But as a long range land attack option. The navy could use its subs to attack even the farthest indian navy bases / ports. A huge advantage indeed.

Another advantage of ship or submarine based long range land attack cruise missile platform is that it complicates enemy's AD. Currently, indian air-defense knows that any projectile / weapon that will come from Pakistan is over the LOC. So their all of air-defense / radars are looking at that one direction. But if you enable ocean as your launching platform then you got more versatile & surprise options with more chances of successful hits as you by pass initial air-defense layers

A cruise missile won’t cut it for much longer. Air defenses are improving in India and enemy forces will be on the alert for subsonic cruise missiles, as the region has come to expect is the new benchmark; Iran-Israel situation has shown.

Better to have hypersonic gliders that can quickly and effectively evade defenses and credibly be a second strike option.

Pakistan needs a missile like the 2021 small SLBM North Korea made for its Navy, in a similar 650-700 km range as the Indian K-15 missile (and a missile like the middle missile; the 2500 km range Pukguksong-5 is needed IMHO, to replace the Shaheen 3 missile, faster/lighter and better able to carry MIRVs and Decoys, ~10 meter long and 1.8 meter diameter )

A slightly wider missile; with of approx. 1100 km range; with 8-10 of them packed into a sub, with the right warhead and decoy systems, and you have a considerable threat, even from within the Pakistani EEZ to cover from Delhi to Mumbai and all Indian installations in between.


Source:

H I Sutton - Covert Shores

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The ocean is vast and big , so 4 Submarines do not make a tremendous difference however they can land a decisive blow to a particular enemy zone of concentration.

They can impact certain battle scenarios

Having 4 is better then 0

But as always Pakistan's purchases are always "Late", every thing Pakistan does is "reaction" to some action , otherwise everyone is chilling in their office eating Tea and Buscuits

> Purchase of Helicopters -> Late
> Purchase of Submarines - > Construction time too long
> Integration of JF17 Thunder new engine -> Late
> Rifles for troops -> Late
> Purchase of heavy vehicles for border patrol -> Late/Delayed/No interest

Somehow we still manage to come up with (There is some good happening as well , credit is due for sure)
a> New Thunders
b) New Tanks
c) New Air to Air missiles
d) New Land to Sea Missiles
e) J10
f) New Tanks
g) New Frigates/Destroyer
h) New Corvette
i) New Radar
j) New Awacs

I always was of an opinion , the construction time for these Submarines is very long and always stated to buy , second hand surface ships 4-8 to compensate till these assets arrive


We will see once these Assets arrive how Navy Uses them

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The Hangor is based on the type 093B Yuan variant (with the flank arrays as the improvement over the 093A), but the Type 093C comes with a towed array.

Any indication the PN will make the Hangor, at least the later of the 6 subs come with a towed array?

ASELSAN has introduced low frequency towed active sonar system for the surface vehicles. May be modified for the submarines...

Aselsan unveils low-frequency towed active sonar system

Aselsan has revealed its low-frequency towed active sonar, releasing a promotional video showing the system aboard the Powhatan-class fleet ocean tug, A-590 TCG Inebolu,...

www.janes.com

 

[FuturePAF]

The ocean is vast and big , so 4 Submarines do not make a tremendous difference however they can land a decisive blow to a particular enemy zone of concentration.

They can impact certain battle scenarios

Having 4 is better then 0

But as always Pakistan's purchases are always "Late", every thing Pakistan does is "reaction" to some action , otherwise everyone is chilling in their office eating Tea and Buscuits

> Purchase of Helicopters -> Late
> Purchase of Submarines - > Construction time too long
> Integration of JF17 Thunder new engine -> Late
> Rifles for troops -> Late
> Purchase of heavy vehicles for border patrol -> Late/Delayed/No interest

Somehow we still manage to come up with (There is some good happening as well , credit is due for sure)
a> New Thunders
b) New Tanks
c) New Air to Air missiles
d) New Land to Sea Missiles
e) J10
f) New Tanks
g) New Frigates/Destroyer
h) New Corvette
i) New Radar
j) New Awacs

I always was of an opinion , the construction time for these Submarines is very long and always stated to buy , second hand surface ships 4-8 to compensate till these assets arrive


We will see once these Assets arrive how Navy Uses them

The issue with second hand ships are their systems aren’t up to par to address emerging threats, so what ever gap your filling will be back in a few years. The best option is a lease on emergency system. For example, Pakistan could lease Type 054A frigates should tensions go up with India, now that it operates Type 054A/P Frigates.

Chinese shipyards can quickly modify a few of their ships and lease them to the Pn for 12 months to stabilize what ever gaps we may have during heightened tensions.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The ocean is vast and big , so 4 Submarines do not make a tremendous difference however they can land a decisive blow to a particular enemy zone of concentration.

They can impact certain battle scenarios

Having 4 is better then 0

But as always Pakistan's purchases are always "Late", every thing Pakistan does is "reaction" to some action , otherwise everyone is chilling in their office eating Tea and Buscuits

> Purchase of Helicopters -> Late
> Purchase of Submarines - > Construction time too long
> Integration of JF17 Thunder new engine -> Late
> Rifles for troops -> Late
> Purchase of heavy vehicles for border patrol -> Late/Delayed/No interest

Somehow we still manage to come up with (There is some good happening as well , credit is due for sure)
a> New Thunders
b) New Tanks
c) New Air to Air missiles
d) New Land to Sea Missiles
e) J10
f) New Tanks
g) New Frigates/Destroyer
h) New Corvette
i) New Radar
j) New Awacs

I always was of an opinion , the construction time for these Submarines is very long and always stated to buy , second hand surface ships 4-8 to compensate till these assets arrive


We will see once these Assets arrive how Navy Uses them

IMO Pakistan's purchases are more for present and clear threats management....

 

[Awwad]

A cruise missile won’t cut it for much longer. Air defenses are improving in India and enemy forces will be on the alert for subsonic cruise missiles, as the region has come to expect is the new benchmark; Iran-Israel situation has shown.

Better to have hypersonic gliders that can quickly and effectively evade defenses and credibly be a second strike option.

Pakistan needs a missile like the 2021 small SLBM North Korea made for its Navy, in a similar 650-700 km range as the Indian K-15 missile (and a missile like the middle missile; the 2500 km range Pukguksong-5 is needed IMHO, to replace the Shaheen 3 missile, faster/lighter and better able to carry MIRVs and Decoys, ~10 meter long and 1.8 meter diameter )

A slightly wider missile; with of approx. 1100 km range; with 8-10 of them packed into a sub, with the right warhead and decoy systems, and you have a considerable threat, even from within the Pakistani EEZ to cover from Delhi to Mumbai and all Indian installations in between.

View attachment 34021
Source:

H I Sutton - Covert Shores

Hypersonic gliders for Pakistan maybe is far away, plus the costs would be extremely high. The BMs have to be very sophisticated to be accurate enough to hit an installation. Pakistani BMs like those Shaheens are majorly for strategic purposes / WMDs. These can't be accurate enough to hit particular installations with conventional payload. I don't think there's enough finances to make a submarine launched BM with high precision. However, can improve on what's already available that's Babur CM. Just increase the range and we are good.

IMO, sub-sonic cruise missiles (land attack ) are still very practical & relevant in indo-pak scenario. However subsonic anti-ship missile is outdated, as its target is a modern warship that's a concentrated piece of advance AD. But when in land attack mode, you know ground installations can't be all jacked up with layers of defenses (maybe only few nuclear sites ). I still believe land attack cruise missiles like babur can be unstoppable for india if fired from unexpected location (vast ocean) . Currently indian AD may want to shoot anything that pass over the LOC but i really doubt that india has any capabilities to intercept the projectiles over its southern regions. Even the LOC is quite large enough that cruise missiles will pass through. Israel is actually very very small in comparison to India. Its easier for Israel to create dense AD layers due to smaller airspace to cover.

However, yes If ever Pakistan's economy recovers then for sure, Pakistan should start such hypersonic / submarine launched / long range missile programs.

 

[Fatman17]

Pakistan Navy lays the keel of the 2nd Hangor-class submarine - Naval News

On February 14, 2024, the Pakistan Navy announced the keel laying of the second Hangor-class submarine at the KS&EW facilities in Karachi.

www.navalnews.com

 

[Awwad]

@DDG-80
care to explain your reaction ? Maybe I said, india cannot replicate the AD likes of Israel? Or something else you found funny?
You can't be running around, reacting foolishly without a logical explanation.