Indian Light Tank Zorawar Breaks Cover

[Faceless]

The Russia Ukraine war has shown us how vulnerable tanks are, especially to drones. Something costing a few thousand dollars can destroy something costing millions, without putting a human in harm's way.

Tanks have always been vulnerable, just because something is vulnerable doesn't mean it's obsolete otherwise Infantry would have been the first to go obsolete, it's the most vulnerable target on the battlefield that can be taken out by a 2 dollar bullet, yet it's still there on the battlefield

I think that tanks had their time. That time started with WWs and ended with Russia- Ukraine conflict.

Tanks were obsolete from the moment they were conceived yet they are still here.
Just ask yourself this question before declaring tanks obsolete, If not a tank then what else, what are you going to replace it with, what other platform can perform it's role better.
Here's a good video on the topic

Drones seem to have completely turned tanks into a vulnerable piece of expensive tech with not much of usage.

They are not the first one to do so, ATGM's did that first but tanks are still here aren't they

How is one going to defend such tanks against very small drones, that can’t be shot down by AD systems

By C-UAS systems like Anti Drone Jammers and Airburst Ammo, drones aren't some sort of holy grail you are making it to be.

Can tanks contribute to a war effort or become a liability?

I will ask you the same question Again what are you going to replace it with, what other platform can perform it's role better.
Infantry is the most vulnerable thing on the battlefield since the invention of warfare yet it has not been replaced even now do you know why, because we are yet to find its replacement

More infantery with ATGM seems more effective than building/buying more tanks

Those ATGM are effective against IFV, APC too but that does not mean these platform have become obsolete too.
Tanks just like IFVs and APCs have a certain role at the battlefield unless you can fill that role with something better those platforms are here to stay.

Showing of military presence by using drones with mounted machine guns or grenades or other suitable weapons may be the way to go.

So that they can be decimated by a 12 gauge

Anti drone system inside a tank is not visible according to you ? There likely should be small radar now inside any modern tank or within 10 tanks there should be one mobile radar vehicle driving along them

According to some news portals Zorawar is supposed to have a anti drone CUAS in it's final configuration.
A mobile Anti Drone tracked Vehicle is seems to be the next addition to Armoured Columns

The enemy uses swarm tactics. Even a hundred drones against one tank is hugely cost disproportionate.

Soft kill CUAS

Many Indian companies are making anti-drone systems and shouldn’t be difficult to mount one. Has one been put on Zorawar? I don’t know.

If I am not wrong there are plans to have a integrated CUAS on our upcoming FMBT,
And according to Alpha Defence there are plans to put a similar CUAS on the next variant of Zorawar

With AI coming in, a drone can be programmed to completely shut down itself from any radio interference after it has archived a lock and is in attack mode. Would anti drone system work in such a case?

There are multiple types of CUAS system.
what you are describing can protect the drones from radio interference based CUAS but against other CUAS systems like microwave, etc

. It may be a good idea to go back and deploy small caliber guns with accurate targeting methods to take down cheap drones

I would suggest the opposite.
A 30mm programmable Airburst round will be the best method to take down "Cheap Drones"

Put small guns with low caliber but extremely accurate targeting method to fire cheap rounds and destroy small drones at close ranges.

Shotgun, you are describing a 12 gauge shotgun

Drones could be stationed remotely, at forward bases. To be activated and controlled from Beijing. Isnt that what the US does with their Reapers etc in Afghanistan and Pakistan

Those drones you are mentioning are neither cheap nor small (they have an antenna the size of a TV Dish) , they will be shot down by a AD system before even reaching the battlefield

smaller adversary closed the odds to superior armour, infantry and artillery

No, A bigger but incompetent army got beaten black and blue by a smaller and nimble adversary.

Tanks after WWII have always been sitting ducks. They are too heavy, too visible and too slow on the battlefield

After the standard mines and trenches and barrier methods were done. First there were attack helicopters and planes. Then shoulder launched munitions from mobile foot soldiers in ambush. Now similar unmanned soldiers dropping out of the sky

Yet they are still here on the battlefield and will stay here for the foreseeable future
They will evolve to counter this new threat just like they always have

And yet, despite all of the above, tanks have stayed relevant in warfare. They are the best way to deliver an artillery punch quickly and efficiently. And punch a hole in the defences for the infantry to take over. I will say thus again, tanks are still relevant, the battlefield tactics and ecosystems need to be adapted.

Drones can take down anything if they aren't countered.

Finally, someone gets it.
Tanks are still here for a reason.
Drones will not make tanks obsolete they will just force it evolve

Plan is to develop an indigenous light tank engine to replace the Cummins engine eventually

Is it the rumoured 1000hp Indigenous Engine

Rest all is Indian, including the gun, the RCWS, the FCS, the battle management systems, the optics, the loitering munitions that it's going to use, etc

Sadly Not true, The gun is 100% Belgian, The optics is supplied by french Safran for the The FCS and BMS we don't know

Don’t be like INSAS.

Not to deviate from the main topic of the thread but INSAS was a production failure and not a devlopment failure

RCWS from BEL, See Through Armour Tech from Tonbo Imaging, 105mm gun from Bharat Forge (in SP models), 81mm Smoke Grenade from OFB, Design inspired from Abhay (DRDO).

Main gun is Belgian, We don't have any info about the See through Armour Tech, For all we know it can very well be sourced from China.
Smoke grenades are extremely basic items, them being Indigenous is not that relevant TBH.

 

[vkdindian]

Tanks have always been vulnerable, just because something is vulnerable doesn't mean it's obsolete otherwise Infantry would have been the first to go obsolete, it's the most vulnerable target on the battlefield that can be taken out by a 2 dollar bullet, yet it's still there on the battlefield

Just because infantry is vulnerable but still there doesn’t mean that everything else that is vulnerable has to be compared to that and be there forever. Things can change and doctrines changed to evolving scenarios.
Infantry soldiers are still there but roles they play have changed. Earlier they used to shout CHARGE and do the same. Has that remained same?
Now they wait for Air Power to subdue the enemy, weaken the enemy and then they make an entry.

Tanks were obsolete from the moment they were conceived yet they are still here.

This is a metaphor. The level of obsolescence has changed and is highest at the moment. Hence the doubt about their usability.

I will ask you the same question Again what are you going to replace it with, what other platform can perform it's role better.

How have they done their job in recent conflicts? Rather than doing what they need to do, they have turned into a liability that needs protection disproportionate to their value.
In a dynamic world, it is better to assess and move on to new things rather than hold onto the past for the love of it. I am not on love with them.

They will evolve to counter this new threat just like they always have

I can’t see the future. Maybe you can.
To me, a time may come when a weapon may loose its significance. There was a time when people should have said the same about Bow and arrow. Do you see them around anymore?

Shotgun, you are describing a 12 gauge shotgun

Nope. I just said small weapons with good rate of fire with decent accuracy to take down a drone at close ranges rather than try and shot them down far away, which can cost a lot more.

 

[arjunk]

it depends. For example, j20 aircraft does not look sexy, and F22/F35 do, but it does not matter who she seems if she does the job.

The J-20 is gorgeous. F-22 also looks very cool. F-35 is generic looking.

 

[Faceless]

Just because infantry is vulnerable but still there doesn’t mean that everything else that is vulnerable has to be compared to that and be there forever

Do you understand what Analogies are, because you seem to have missed the entire point.

Infantry soldiers are still there but roles they play have changed. Earlier they used to shout CHARGE and do the same. Has that remained same?

Actually YES it has remained the same.
Earlier they used to Shout CHARGE after a Trebuchet destroyed the defense wall, now they Shout CHARGE after a Tank destroys the Enemy fortification
Earlier they used to Shout CHARGE and rush at the enemy with swords now they Shout CHARGE and rush at the enemy with guns and bayonet
Earlier they used to Shout CHARGE and rush and occupy the enemy fort now they Shout CHARGE and occupy Enemy FOBs.
Earlier they used to Shout CHARGE and rush headfirst into the battlefield now they Shout CHARGE and rain enemy with bullet from strategic positions,
Tactics have changed but their roles have remained.

This is a metaphor. The level of obsolescence has changed and is highest at the moment. Hence the doubt about their usability.

Same was said when modern ATGM's were invented, ERA came as a response
Now Drones have become a threat, integrated CUAS and Air burst Ammo will become widespread
Dedicated Anti Drone Systems Moving Alongside the Armoured Columns will become the Norm.

As for the level of obsolescence, Drones are a threat to literally everything from APC to IFV to Tank to SPH even Infantry does that mean they all are obsolete.

How have they done their job in recent conflicts

I ask you what exactly is their job, that they are supposedly failing at.

Rather than doing what they need to do, they have turned into a liability that needs protection disproportionate to their value.

Yet neither side seems to be willing to discard it and is willing to spend disproportionate amount of protection.
Surely there is a reason to that.
Maybe that's because there is no replacement in sight that can fulfill its role

In a dynamic world, it is better to assess and move on to new things rather than hold onto the past for the love of it

Surely both China and US are idiots that are holding onto the past for the love of it and are spending billions on building a new tank that according to you will be obsolete the moment it rolls down the assembly line

There was a time when people should have said the same about Bow and arrow. Do you see them around anymore?

I ask you What exactly was the role of the bow and arrow at the battlefield.
Because to my eyes guns seem to fulfilling that role.
So unless you are saying that a superior alternative to tank has arrived that can fulfill its role better, I don't see the connection between Bow and Tank

Nope. I just said small weapons with good rate of fire with decent accuracy to take down a drone at close ranges rather than try and shot them down far away, which can cost a lot more.

Harried By 100,000 Ukrainian Drones A Month, Russian Troops Learn To Dodge—And Beg For Shotguns

The Russian military’s anti-drone radio jammers don’t work very well. So Russian troops are training to leap out of the way of incoming drones.

www.forbes.com

A small weapons with high rate of fire ends up with an empty magazine and not a downed UAV.
the biggest problem in shooting down UAV has been accuracy and that's what shotgun fixes by filling the entire area with steel slugs

 

[suriya]

Too much cope in comment section from the Turk crowd.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1809594373421543722

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

 

[vkdindian]

I ask you what exactly is their job, that they are supposedly failing at.

What job have they been able to do? It’s been two years now. Shouldn’t they have defeated the enemy by now?

As for the level of obsolescence, Drones are a threat to literally everything from APC to IFV to Tank to SPH even Infantry does that mean they all are obsolete.

You didn’t get my point. Drones threaten everything in a theatre, but the levels are different. Drones are being used against everything you mentioned. The impact is more when it destroys an APC or a tank. This gets more eyeballs than killing a lone soldier.
This development may have turned turtle the entire concept of modern warfare. Same way when tanks were introduced and for the initial part there was no defence against them. Drones could be the tank moment for the times to come.
ATGM and other weapons did threaten them, but the scale was much different than what it is now. Did ATGM have same debilitating impact as drones? The answer is no. Tanks are no more in a position, to do, what they could do before this development.

Do you understand what Analogies

I do and also know that analogy doesn’t work for incomparable things. Human factor aka an infantry soldier can’t be compared with a piece of machine. Machines, automation, etc were devised to allow humans to ace an opponent. You are trying to portray means as ends.
Tanks had a role to overwhelm an enemy and allow soldiers to occupy the ground. That’s why your analogy is flawed.

I don't see the connection between Bow and Tank

You don’t seem to understand the meaning of analogy.

Bows and arrows were means to ace in the battlefield. Equipment to kill and win. Those roles have evolved in the form of guns, artillery, tanks, aircraft, submarines and many other developments. Every piece of equipment is likely to have a shelf life except the human factor.

A small weapons with high rate of fire ends up with an empty magazine and not a downed UAV.
the biggest problem in shooting down UAV has been accuracy and that's what shotgun fixes by filling the entire area with steel slugs

Yes, that could be the way to defeat them but hasn’t worked till now. Russians tried the cage stuff but it was defeated in no time. Credible defence is yet to come and it has been two years.
The problem is that drones appear to be much more versatile platforms than what can be addressed by the current defences. There is no doubt that systems to counter drones are likely to be developed at a fast pace. But, the advent of AI and miniaturisation combined with an agile opponent could have created the most difficult time for not only tanks but any such machinery in a battlefield.
It may not be possible to adapt fast enough during a battle against rapidly evolving tactics with the use of drones.

Russia -Ukraine conflict has been raging for a long time with tanks bogged down all this while. Would so much time be available in our theatres of conflict?

I don’t have any special love or hate towards any platform. It’s just that I am unable to fathom a way out of this development. Would be more than happy if we can find a way out of it and make the tank force relevant. Till then, I would be a sceptic.

 

[Nilgiri]

I am not an expert. Many such sensors maybe available on a tank or an armoured vehicle based on the requirement. It can be integrated well, so that it may not be visible externally.

Many Indian companies are making anti-drone systems and shouldn’t be difficult to mount one. Has one been put on Zorawar? I don’t know.

With AI coming in, a drone can be programmed to completely shut down itself from any radio interference after it has archived a lock and is in attack mode. Would anti drone system work in such a case? Drones have opened up completely new and unchartered challenges to tanks and this cat vs mouse game has just started.

its being wargamed right now in defence simulations and various field tests.

Just like its always been.

Folks are taking the UKR/RUS war too much not understanding the state of war thats now contorted to its state now....by Russian piss poor logistical investment (relative to artillery which they preferred for) and the duration of the war now going into years. Same goes for Ukraine and its NATO backfilling/support (cant bring it up to speed overnight for this long duration stuff especially).

So of course there are going to be huge deficits in what russia has invested in in build up for it....they were not designed for ww1 sedentary style trench stuff, that just opens itself up for drone vectors and so on....as no one here had the coin to invest into that degree of anti-drone for years long wars.

No country wants to get into this kind of war to begin with. Its got to be short, brutal and over as possible. That means wargame every single unit you have, the relevance it has and what are the proper robust investments to the threats it has in that dynamic maneuver realm you want to be over as quick as possible.

 

[Nilgiri]

Another example of making a tracked assault gun and calling it a tank. I'll admit that seeing the idea that tanks aside from mobile fire support are also supposed to be breakthrough weapons that need to contest anti-tank weaponry within reason, seemingly blew over the head of most designers, frustrates me a little.
I do like the FLIR that comes with the Cockrell turret complex though.

There is a specific need for it in high altitude area India has in Himalayas....basically regular tanks have trouble being maneuvered to degree needed....as there are lot of chokepoints that arise in this area....it diminishes each power level in each sim done.

With design driver like that, then you package what you can in the turret to frontload everything as far as possible when SHTF dynamic in these areas...this builds up the deterrence level to its degree to begin with. i.e what does the cockrell turret bring to the game in scenarios 1 to 9 before we get to the next tier of conflict.

 

[Nilgiri]

Raising a seperate anti drone unit to accompany tanks is a better solution.

Yup, my hope is this is already being done for the combined war reforms. Attach unit like this at brigade level first, then even battalion level at later stage.

 

[Nilgiri]

I dont want to make this political, but L&T is a pan India behemoth. Like the Tatas. Yet this tank production too is in one favoured state.

Thats ok. country evolves and grows....and ohio grabs more from michigan "OG" (political favouritism and other circumstances of the time)..... over longer time for defence hardware corp....and "far away" california is the new budding phoenix of its own too.

But Indian economy has to double and its political maturity needs to triple or better ASAP.

 

[Nilgiri]

"But" India has to date, struggled to integrate imported products into a successful product "yet". Lets see if this is any better.

ISRO: I mean nothing to you?

India doesn't want to spend decades staring at Ballistic missiles and paint.

Iran also wants to get to space as quick as possible. There's can do competence for a reason thats a big deficit in some countries....thats on your lot.

 

[Nilgiri]

ALL those Chinese and Pakistani members mocking Light tank should get that its just one of the two prototypes of the tender for light tank contest by Indian army

L&T has fielded Zorawar while Bharat Forge /Kalyani Light tank hasnt of yet broken the cover to media yet

then both will be tested in highest and most toughest himlayan terrain in all kinds of weather after that they will be upgraded if there will be any need for it and then the final product

besides we have all the time and moeny to even install best systems from Europe and Israel or USA or russia if the need arises if you can do that do it whose stopping you

Ignore the Chinese ones. There's a "we'll take Hanoi, we promise!" thing going on with them a long while since 1979.... I mean what confronted them and forced to back away after losing all the lives, blood sweat and tears....and Vietnam just stays in Cambodia another 10 years anyway to ensure Chinese best friend "pol pot" (wonderful character and all) couldnt ever return again.

Then they see they got an embassy in Dhaka, you know how the rest of it goes.

Total utter debacle that haunts them....especially the trolls that flex online sitting in whichever insular dwelling far from the actual reality of these things.

Just have pity for them instead (you couldn't manage hanoi?...really?) it makes things lot more enjoyable lol.

 

[Lulldapull]

Main nay vi nya nwela tank banana hae ga aur uss da naam main zordaar tank rakhan ga.

Then I will come here and show you all.

You will see…….just wait.

 

[Lulldapull]

Mods, can we get this guy to stop posting in Hindi please, post reported.

Evidently he didn’t go to a good school no?……

Oh bhaaaaaanchhhhh