JF-17 PFX program

[Bilal]

and Pakistan has minimal to no capability to R&D such kind of project

In what terms? What do you know about Pakistan’s RnD?

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

It is not necessary for it to be stealthy. We are talking about a light fighter. This does not mean that its specifications should remain low or that it should be cheap. Its performance should be low. Pakistan has the opportunity to develop a version to integrate 100 additional planes into its air force instead of the older versions, the JF-17. The philosophy on which the plane was built and the limited performance specifications are the reason for its lack of international spread. Rather, we are surprised that Iraq contracted for it instead of the J-10CE because, simply put, Pakistan did not develop the plane well enough to deserve an international marketing volume that is parallel to the amount of effort that went into development and production.

It is funny that you say do not live in dreams. So you love the bad reality and specifications that do not achieve the protection of national security and the defense of the country's airspace.

Oh bhai PFX will be next upgrades of block III (avionics/AESA/ECM/EW/ECCM) like a Gripen E with either Chinese WS-13IPE or WS19 engine, it will become low to medium weight jet, no need to install super-high thrust class engine like AL-51 or WS15 as you post in your above post, its destabilize the jet

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

In what terms? What do you know about Pakistan’s RnD?

No big rnd companies at least on par with Indian defense companies like HAL/DRDO etc etc

 

[Bilal]

No big rnd companies at least on par with Indian defense companies like HAL/DRDO etc etc

So basically, that was just a clueless comment.

 

[Bossman]

So please tell me which pakistani company has a resource and $$$ comparable to HAL and DRDO?

We don’t have companies, we have organizations best we keep them secret. Also we are not stupid that we are always reinventing the wheel and failing like the DRDO. Every major project they started was a failure or was resurrected with foreign help.

INSAS - Fail
Arjun - Fail
Kaveri - Fail
Tejas - Failed and delayed but barely surviving due political pressure and foreign input. IAF never wanted it but it was forced upon them by Modi.
HAL - Dhruv - Basically a fail but surviving due to significant foreign input.
The list goes on. So don’t brag about DRDO and HAL with us

 

[Bilal]

So please tell me which pakistani company has a resource and $$$ comparable to HAL and DRDO?

You are just a two bit troll. You started with

“and Pakistan has minimal to no capability to R&D such kind of project”

And now you are at:

“So please tell me which pakistani company has a resource and $$$ comparable to HAL and DRDO?”

You are that multi ID troll.

 

[Bilal]

We don’t have companies, we have organizations best we keep them secret. Also we are not stupid that we are always reinventing the wheel and failing like the DRDO, every major project they started was a failure or was resurrected with foreign help.

INSAS - Fail
Arjun - Fail
Kaveri - Fail
Tejas - Failed and but barely surviving due political pres

Don’t fall for the troll’s derailment.

 

[prothought]

So basically, that was just a clueless comment.

I am not sure about his origin but he seems farting tall and loud like Indians. Don't waste your time on the dude.

 

[TopGun786]

You are just a two bit troll. You started with

“and Pakistan has minimal to no capability to R&D such kind of project”

And now you are at:

“So please tell me which pakistani company has a resource and $$$ comparable to HAL and DRDO?”

You are that multi ID troll.

He has three atleast three ids on this forum.
Now you can easily get what kind of person he is.
I have noticed he starts butt heading with each and every pdf member.

 

[FuturePAF]

No, even if the USAF is pursuing this path of a lighter fighter, it will still be a heavy-weight in comparison to the JF-17. The point is, most 6th generation concepts so far revealed are large & heavy due to their internal fuel and weapons load capacity demanded by the range requirements.

I thought this light fighter concept was sort of like a modern day F-5, but with the potential for an unmanned version for loyal wingman aka collaborative combat aircraft

Similar to the “Vanguard” from Northrop recently unveiled:

 

[Oscar]

The JF-17 Block I and Block II need upgrades to be relevant in the next decade. I thought the PFX was that program. If it is not, there should be a program for the upgrade. So far we have not heard of any other program.

Block-Is are serving as second line - Block-IIs are in various stages of updates ranging from bits and pieces testing(AESA, EW) for Block-III to software ones, they've even carried PL-15s in test reportedly but the most likely one will be AESA and EW.

PFX however is the oddest question of all - and it may end up being a combination of additional localization(not indigenization) in terms of manufacturing jigs... and then perhaps some changes to the airframe.

In general the challenge is both scale and repeatability.

Keep in mind PAC was able to repair on its own a VERY damaged F-16 without assistance from LM but then there is 40 years of knowledge on the type that translates to being able to being able to create one off metal parts with equipment installed at PAC imported from China for the JF-17 so they do have the capability to manufacture certain sheeting, parts and so on.

When the JF-17 program was handed over to AM Shahid Latif and asked to see what the status was, his first visit caught him off because there was literally no work done other than some high level CAD which the PAF was expecting as a joint project to be much more ahead. The Chengdu Aircraft Corp team was short handed and focused on the J-10 and then behind the scenes they were prepping for other projects.

That pushed the PAF to volunteer its own corps of Aerospace engineers with the majority with less experience on the design side(with some exceptions) and mostly on the maintenance and general knowledge types. Still, it was manpower to get things moving and they were assigned under CAC mentors/managers to start moving things along until at one point there were more than a 100 of them working which led to shortages back home. So there is a cadre of engineers that has worked on the actual design and manufacturing process for the JF-17 - are all of them still with PAF?? I dont know the answer to that.

Secondly, in terms of design - most of the CPDs of the JF-17s had F-16 experience with some having time on the M2k and other aircraft, and they would revise the requirements for CAC including everything from cockpit ergonomics to interface to maneuvering requirements. Which is why the first prototype is so different from PT-4 and more so the initial design was truly just an improved F-7MG when it came to avionics and cockpit design.

So there is knowledge..

Now let's apply that to the PFX as a modified "new" JF-17 variant.. metal allow cutting/shaping machines have come a long way since the F-16 production line and
there is a lot more flexibility to what a machine can cut and press in but in the end certain changes are the push of a CAD file while others require changes to full presses which can run into hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Then comes the question of design knowledge again- not just spending time on CATIA or similar software but actually knowing all of the considerations that go into creating a new design even if its modifying an existing one - stress points, fluid dynamics and all of the very technical and mathematical aspects even with the massive advancements in CAD and other areas require actually knowing the baseline ideas within the tools. How much of those experienced PAF engineers along with the token Cranfield and other school grads really have program running experience for completely new aircraft?
Not to mention the high levels of brain drain already active - who is actually left that still can move this program forward?

After all - Garbage in , Garbage out unless you know what you are doing.

So it's not just the idea of upgrades or the claims of new aircraft vs more localized - it is a combination of factors that has to come together for any of these wishes to be realized.

Desis have the habit of "Look busy" through fanfare and throwing wrenches to seem relevant and smart - I see it all the time with some Indian clients and lived through it during my short stint in Pakistani R&D. How much has changed?

How much of all of these factors will be impacted by budget then?

Because at the end, if there is isnt budget to get equipment or get things done - most of the employees who are mediocre at best will come in , log 3 hours working and the rest will be spent on tea breaks, tik tok and youtube videos and then making up reports that 60% are filled with nonsense.

So, if the PFX is to be a new aircraft - there has to be a really dedicated thing veneer of highly competent and dedicated people who despite all the chaos and gloom in the country will by their sweat, blood and tears make it happen.

Question is - if they are not forced out due to being a little outspoken or made to leave...

 

[TopGun786]

Block-IIs are in various stages of updates ranging from bits and pieces testing(AESA, EW) for Block-III to software ones, they've even carried PL-15s in test reportedly but the most likely one will be AESA and EW.

Even if proves wrong later, it made my day.

 

[Oscar]

Even if proves wrong later, it made my day.

It's the grey area between yes men reporting everything green to the chain of command while "ghost" projects exist with little work and whatever minuscule budget remains from inefficiencies translating to actual progress.

After all, Pakistani government R&D is mostly comprised of

 

[Oscar]

Oh bhai PFX will be next upgrades of block III (avionics/AESA/ECM/EW/ECCM) like a Gripen E with either Chinese WS-13IPE or WS19 engine, it will become low to medium weight jet, no need to install super-high thrust class engine like AL-51 or WS15 as you post in your above post, its destabilize the jet

This is a plausible outcome.

 

[harpy1]

It's a decade to 15 years to build a new fighter and cost of 1.5/2 billion dollars to build five prototypes

Then you need the complete eco system in place to achieve this

License assembly is nut and bolts screwing

If the Pakistanis are serious about j10 numbers ie more imports and j31
As well ...All supposedly happening IE next five to ten years then a brand new upgraded jf17 seems far fetched fetched

Three separate fighter inductions

I.think pfx will Chinese upgrades in Chengdu on the thunder peice meal they have the biggest aero space eco system In the world
I don't see anything happening in Pakistan