JF-17 PFX program

[FuturePAF]

You know this JF-20 was a hobby-modeller's what-if project to play around with some ideas? Nothing official nor real.

I understand and know we have accepted that it’s a hobbyist model, I just shared it again as a place holder for what could be, and to say we just need an improved design for the modern era. Basically everything the JF-17 Block 3 has could be ported over to a new airframe and we would have the benefits of a Gripen NG for a little more than the price of a JF-17 Block 3, if economies of scale and sales are taken into account.

The Turkish single engine T-FX design seems a way better design to pursue and has some R&D Design work already done. Probably an additional good way for our 200 engineers in Turkey to work with the Turks on a design that can benefit from KAAN development. Turkey has a lot of experience building the fuselage for the F-35, so a lower RCS airframe that is optimized for high speed A2A; no DSI, could be just what we need to deal with the entire current and expected IAF line up.

Semi-stealth, like the KF-21, but in large numbers maybe just what we need for form the backbone of the future PAF fleet. Also, if we build in a loyal wingman version, it could be a plane we could also sell at a competitive price.

We need to maximize the potential of the new WS-19 engines, and as everyone keeps pointing out the JF-17 airframe has reached the limits of its design with the current engines. Everyone says a 30-50% increase in thrust from 81kn to 110-120 kn is too much of a leap for the current airframe.

 

[Awwad]

First bother to tell me how we are paying for JF-17 we are producing, J-10 C we are inducting, VT 4, SH-15 Artillery, Type 54 A Frigates, Babur Class Corvettes, Yarmook Class corvettes, 8 submarines, HQ9, HQ16,CAMM ER, TB 2, Akinci, Shahpar II, Wing Long II drones, Missile Boats, different missile programs, AWACS and EW planes, and shall I continue more. If you can answer me these things than come and debate with me on finances

Well this list is again the reason that Pakistan is done for the shopping spree for next decade or so. Most of this equipment is bought on installments / loans that will go on for a long time. Now we definitely will see the pause in purchasing as previous loans matures. No one's mad enough to lend even more money for weapons to already a fragile economy. Secondly, you cannot compare 5th gen platforms with drones, VT-4s, artillery etc etc. J-31 or KAAN will be the most expensive platforms PAF has ever bought.

Even if we assume Sky opens up and 100 billion dollars are dropped in the Air head quarters, even than PAF will become the biggest joke if it inducts two different 5th gen platforms within the space of 5 years. That will only weaken the airforce instead strengthening it. Means you won't get expertise, hands-on, logistic / supply chain to any of the platforms but decided to add variety for show pieces / decoration. Real war fighting capability happens when you dedicate the force / human resource and economy to the platform.

Bottomline is KAAN & J-31 both in PAF is total insane & impossible before 2045. Only one will get into service first and serve atleast 10-15 years before we could think for the next one.

 

[MS Sandhu]

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The fanboy versions which we used to make fun of and models whose pictures came out few years ago and we made all fun off. Turns out they could actually turn out to be true.

Hazrat saab,Uth pao Lahore a gia je

 

[Tameem]

As for affordability Sir I have answered you thousand time but you live in some dumb bubble and are not ready to come out of it.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir both J-31 and JF-17 PFX programs are announced by PAF not me. 200 Pakistanis are working on KAAN it was announced by Turkish officials not me. Plus we would soon be joining KAAN project officially. As for affordability Sir I have answered you thousand time but you live in some dumb bubble and are not ready to come out of it. Please explain how we are buying J-10 C, producing JF-17, Buying Type 54 A, MILGEM, Yarmook Class Corvettes, Missile Boats, 8 Submarines, SAAB AWACS, HQ9, HQ-16, HQ7, CAMM ER, Akinci, TB 2, Wing Long II, SHAHPAR II. VT 4 Tanks, SH 15 artillery Guns and many more weapon systems when you have answer to do that than come and reply me. I have been discussing JF-17 PFX program with some people. The things I showed even if they are fanboy stuff, they could very well become a reality because that is exactly what is JF-17 PFX program. A light fighter jet with a body made with same materials as used in either KAAN or J-31. AESA radar, Avionics, EW suit, IRST and other systems. Just only lacking internal weapons bay and eventually that would come also. And it would be separate from J-31, and KAAN. And next time when you want to question what we can afford, or it not answer how we bought the weapons I mentioned above. J-31 is coming, JF-17 PFX is being worked upon and KAAN will be our future Air Craft also are PAF announcements not me. So please try to send the message to them and ask them how they can afford it all that. And you will get your answer. And even when INSHALLAH al these three Air Crafts will be flying in really good numbers in PAF. Skeptics like you will come up with some other dumb bubble to live in. A person who has chosen to remain blind nothing can be done about that. @MastanKhan

Hi,

Thanks for the post---. It is happening right in front of his eyes---and yet he can neither comprehend how it happened---nor he can see it happening---.

He is totally blind and confused to what is staring right back at him---.

The other side of it is that him being a snoop---he is trying to dig hard at the source of the funds---.

At first the induction of the first sqdrn of the JF17 BLK3 was a shocker to him---and then real fast---the second sqdrn starting coming in----that just blew the lid of the top and blew the pan of the bottom at the same time.

 

[Awwad]

Isn't it crazy to say oh we buy Vt-4s, artillery, drones, J-10Cs so we can buy just anything too... lol! J-31 or KAAN is going to be costly beyond your any existing spending. They will cost a way lot! Secondly, with empty pockets we all know previous purchases are done with installments / loans. So naturally you got to wait before those installments are done or atleast major part of those are paid.

For the people who think PAF will get both J-31 & KAAN and that too before 2040s:

Even if you manage to buy 5th gen aircraft, Maintaining 5th gen platform is costly endeavor too. Maintaining two different 5th gen platforms is Crazy as hell. Instead of few aircrafts of both types its logical to have good numbers for one type.

Getting a Mix achaar of 5th gen aircrafts both in few numbers is hilarious. How you are going to do war exercises, build capacity using those platforms if you add so much overhead and burden of different platforms? Think about hourly flying cost of 5th gen platforms that adds up exponentially if you have totally different types in your inventory.

Edit: I am only commenting on 5th gen platforms. In response to @Zarvan wishlist. I am not negating JF-17 PFX, That may or may not be reality. We don't know yet. Perhaps a block-4 ? we don't know yet, simply there isn't much info. Things will get clear with time.

 

[Deino]

Sir both J-31 and JF-17 PFX programs are announced by PAF not me. 200 Pakistanis are working on KAAN it was announced by Turkish officials not me. Plus we would soon be joining KAAN project officially. As for affordability Sir I have answered you thousand time but you live in some dumb bubble and are not ready to come out of it. Please explain how we are buying J-10 C, producing JF-17, Buying Type 54 A, MILGEM, Yarmook Class Corvettes, Missile Boats, 8 Submarines, SAAB AWACS, HQ9, HQ-16, HQ7, CAMM ER, Akinci, TB 2, Wing Long II, SHAHPAR II. VT 4 Tanks, SH 15 artillery Guns and many more weapon systems when you have answer to do that than come and reply me. I have been discussing JF-17 PFX program with some people. The things I showed even if they are fanboy stuff, they could very well become a reality because that is exactly what is JF-17 PFX program. A light fighter jet with a body made with same materials as used in either KAAN or J-31. AESA radar, Avionics, EW suit, IRST and other systems. Just only lacking internal weapons bay and eventually that would come also. And it would be separate from J-31, and KAAN. And next time when you want to question what we can afford, or it not answer how we bought the weapons I mentioned above. J-31 is coming, JF-17 PFX is being worked upon and KAAN will be our future Air Craft also are PAF announcements not me. So please try to send the message to them and ask them how they can afford it all that. And you will get your answer. And even when INSHALLAH al these three Air Crafts will be flying in really good numbers in PAF. Skeptics like you will come up with some other dumb bubble to live in. A person who has chosen to remain blind nothing can be done about that. @MastanKhan

Instead of again long thesis about what was announced and who is working on what, just a short concrete reply: What is the source for your statement: J 31 prototype 4 and 5th are also flying but aren't shown in public?

Even more once again just to be clear: Do you want to say we have two J-35 prototypes and no. 03 & 04 are J-31 in your opinion or do you claim, there are two J-35 prototypes and altogether now four J-31 prototypes?

In fact I don't know what's your sources but based on mine - and I have quite a regular access to images of SAC - there are only two J-35 flying and a third one (in green primer) was spotted in August 2023, what fits nicely to the reported maiden flight of the third J-35 prototype in September.

Otherwise NO additional J-35 prototypes and even lesser a J-31 were spotted at SAC!

Therefore again, it would really help a bit to explain on what you base this very bolt statement.

 

[Deino]

Hi,

Thanks for the post---. It is happening right in front of his eyes---and yet he can neither comprehend how it happened---nor he can see it happening---.

He is totally blind and confused to what is staring right back at him---.

The other side of it is that him being a snoop---he is trying to dig hard at the source of the funds---.

At first the induction of the first sqdrn of the JF17 BLK3 was a shocker to him---and then real fast---the second sqdrn starting coming in----that just blew the lid of the top and blew the pan of the bottom at the same time.

No, I'm only digging for facts! where is this claim from prototype no. 3 & 4 of the J-31 are already flying when professional analysts with access of satellite imagery of SAC's factory say, they have seen just three aircraft, even credible Chinese spotter say the same ... but he knows better since a random guy in Pakistan claimed this?

By the way, why was "the induction of the first sqdrn of the JF17 BLK3 was a shocker to him"? Again a lie ... but concerning facts to ask you is almost blasphemy .. as long as a "foreign spy" will get wrong answers its fine for you. As such no-one would expects facts from you.

 

[AsaRad1]

brother...if AZM has taught us anything...the PAF's definition of "foundation" can also be a doodle on a napkin. Moreover, the next PAF leadership could also change things. From NASTP to J-31, nothing is guaranteed to stay as we know it over the next 3-5 years.

One thing I don't understand is why they're so fixated on producing a crewed fighter. I get it's a 'pride' thing, okay, but it's irrational. You've already committed to one (if not two) foreign next-gen fighter designs. So, perhaps, they should focus on negotiating for a decent offset package aimed at building useful local sustainment and integration/customization capabilities.

Besides that, the PAF should be looking at pivoting PAC towards manufacturing UCAVS. Like, start with developing your target drone tech into an attritable MUM-T UAV or munition. Then, develop a bigger 3-4-ton loyal wingman UCAV. Finally, aim for a 9-12-ton strike UCAV.

@JamD @Oscar

I think this would be a more scalable approach because you may need many more UCAVs versus crewed fighters. It may be easier to develop the core inputs for these applications at home too, from composites to flight control system to engines (at least a 3-4-ton UCAV).

J-31 isn't finalised but I think NASTP is here to stay with already a huge infrastructural investment and human resource capacity building. They actually put a little effort into building some kind of road map. Maybe a bit of tweaks but I think it's too deep in to just abandon.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Do you know how China works? First go and learn. There are huge chances J 31 prototype 4 and 5th are also flying but aren't shown in public. That also could mean that we may have already become partner in it in the sense that J 31 is being designed keeping our suggestions in mind and PAF pilots could be flying them. The corporation level which we have with China is not like one we have with USA where everything is announced before we get them. All I knowing seeing past record when an PAF announces a plane is coming from China it has never taken more than 1.5 years to that announcement becoming a reality. USA and Europe are a completely different story.

Only you know that they're flying and no other guy other than you that they're flying and how they can hide this is fighter jet not a honey bee or something and you're wrong this time there's no way Pakistan is able to induct such a complex project in just 1.5 year only you're assuming and having a too much wishful thinking about getting j31 in just 1.5/2 years

 

[studsmart]

Believing news, tidbit I believe the J31 version for PAF will be in 2-4 years from today. PFX will be ready between 2028 and 2030. KAAN 5+ gen version or maybe a 5.5+ gen version will be 2032 appx. so to expect as below

by 2028
-PAF is expected to complete the upgrade of blk2 to blk3 standards and induct all needed J10C
-Complete inducting L15 in numbers, my estimate (only mine no information from the PAF brass) - will be between 60-80

est. 2026-28 --> J31 version for PAF to add LO 5th gen strike capability, expect 5-6 squadrons to complement J10C and JF17C

est. 2028-30 --> PFX to add low of the high-low mix of LO fighters, a possible replacement for blk 1 JFT and future sales. PFX might just end up as tech demo [we will know about it in next 18 months]

est. 2032 --> KAAN blk30/35 - 5.5+ gen fighter to replace F16, expect good 80- 100 examples. Engine issue remains

 

[PakAl]

If it's 'something like KF-21' then they might as well pursue the J-31 with local manufacturing and deep customization rights/capacity. The later KF-21 blocks will have internal weapon bays and (I'm guessing) further RCS reduction measures anyways.

Don't see why paf would spend so many resources on a new 4.5+ generation plane. We have J10Cs which are 4.5+ generation, have f16s, Jf17 Block 3s. 4th generation and 4.5+ generation is pretty much covered. The next plane must be J35s or Kaan, we all thought it will be AZM which will be pak spec 5th generation plane but the project didn't materlise. I would understand if we went ahead with AZM to produce a Jf17 style 5th generation plane, the design could be brand new but cost effective plane which we can induct in large numbers like the jf17s.

Realistically J10cs, F16s, Jf17 Block 3s are enough for us till 2035 when Iaf will induct 5th generation planes, and by that time J35s and Kaan will be available. Paf waited till India bought the Rafales and then inducted J10cs, the same way paf will wait till India inducts 5th generation, lastly by 2035 Kilzimia and Anka will also be on a different level.

 

[PakAl]

Bhai watch the video, in that video JF-17 PFX is mentioned separately and then J-31 is mentioned separately. J-31 is coming. JF-17 PFX is totally different program. Either it's a jet like Grippen E or a jet like SU-75 without internal bay. And later it would come with internal bay. But J-31 is coming and also JF-17 PFX.

Just to be clear paf is currently in 2024 inducting J10Cs and Jf17 Block 3s, around 2027 they will induct another platform J35s, and then around 2030/2032 will induct Kaan, paf will also induct Jf17 PFX, and Kilzimia/Anka which is large as f16s. It sounds really exciting but unrealistic.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Do you know how China works? First go and learn. There are huge chances J 31 prototype 4 and 5th are also flying but aren't shown in public. That also could mean that we may have already become partner in it in the sense that J 31 is being designed keeping our suggestions in mind and PAF pilots could be flying them. The corporation level which we have with China is not like one we have with USA where everything is announced before we get them. All I knowing seeing past record when an PAF announces a plane is coming from China it has never taken more than 1.5 years to that announcement becoming a reality. USA and Europe are a completely different story.

And how can they hide it from public eyes, tell us please, and we are not seen weapon testing yet for J35 let alone your imaginary J-31 prototypes

 

[Zarvan]

Just to be clear paf is currently in 2024 inducting J10Cs and Jf17 Block 3s, around 2027 they will induct another platform J35s, and then around 2030/2032 will induct Kaan, paf will also induct Jf17 PFX, and Kilzimia/Anka which is large as f16s. It sounds really exciting but unrealistic.

Did I announce these programs? PAF has done it. Tell them that it sounds unrealistic. By the way the acquisitions we are making one after another even they all sound unrealistic. We have some SAAB AWACS on order. We inducted and integrated Akinci, TB2, SHAHPAR, Wing Long II. Bought J-10 C, Producing JF-17. Please keep this picture in mind when it comes JF-17 PFX program and where the technological help and from where the money would come from. Recently a three-day conference of Pakistani, Saudi and Turkish defense officials took place. They were discussing such matters and how to move ahead.