JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[MS Sandhu]

Loyal wingmen are one way forward, but manned aircraft are still important. The JF-17 is a priority for Pakistan and it is different from the J-31/35, so Pakistan will continue to develop this aircraft.
In the future, the best combination for Pakistan is J-31/35 + JF-17 block4, J-31/35 can achieve Mach 1.5 supersonic cruise, and JF-17 block4 with WS-15 can achieve similar supersonic cruise, they can work well together.

In presence of J-10CP, any non-stealth improvement in JF-17 makes little sense.

 

[Quwa]

I would think the future would be less focus on manned systems and lot more loyal wingman type systems. Seems where a lot is going for and suits Pakistan a lot as well due to the dynamics.

Pakistan has the groundwork for this, especially attritable UCAV systems. Systems like the Kratos Valkyrie draws on target drone and cruise missile technology. tbh, I think there are a few signs that Pakistan is already working on an attritable UCAV system.

The first step (IMO) is to enlarge one's target drones, which is happening (see Hadaf-HS).

https://depo.gov.pk/single_product.php?pid=1159

From there, you start reworking the target drones into decoys, usually with a payload of some type (like an ECM jammer), that fly alongside your manned aircraft.

In tandem, you gradually keep developing larger airframes until you reach the 2-3-ton MTOW range, at which point you can arm the UCAV with a small munitions load (enough for 2-3 SDBs or AAMs).

 

[SaadH]

and the reason for that timeline is what, in your view?

That nuclear detonation was moot and Pakistan was under sanctions even prior to the tests. In fact Clinton Admin had offered to remove pressler related sanctions and give back the Pakistani F-16's that were sitting in storage to stop the tests from going through.

 

[VCheng]

That nuclear detonation was moot and Pakistan was under sanctions even prior to the tests. In fact Clinton Admin had offered to remove pressler related sanctions and give back the Pakistani F-16's that were sitting in storage to stop the tests from going through.

The needs for sanctions was based on all the progress Pakistan was making towards those tests. Of course that would be prior to the tests. Negotiations to incentivize Pakistan from proceeding to that goal broke down after Pakistan indicated its form decisions to go ahead come what may. USA had no choice but to respond as it did by Pakistan's choice.

 

[Oscar]

The needs for sanctions was based on all the progress Pakistan was making towards those tests. Of course that would be prior to the tests. Negotiations to incentivize Pakistan from proceeding to that goal broke down after Pakistan indicated its form decisions to go ahead come what may. USA had no choice but to respond as it did by Pakistan's choice.

Before we deviate too off topic - its not “isolated” to Pakistan. Similar measures were threatened and implemented against the South African apartheid regime as well for their nuclear program.

 

[Bilal]

To your point - I know the former Chief Project Director of the JF-17 program from the Pakistan side and they too have discussed these but just as you said - I don’t have the authority to confirm.

Wait, what? You are giving credence to what was said in his post? This is huge if something like that or it’s subset is possible.

Hmm … baat karne tu do jab itnay shauq se ki ja rihi hai.

Oh. Pehle parh leta yeh…

 

[JamD]

Pakistan has the groundwork for this, especially attritable UCAV systems. Systems like the Kratos Valkyrie draws on target drone and cruise missile technology. tbh, I think there are a few signs that Pakistan is already working on an attritable UCAV system.

The first step (IMO) is to enlarge one's target drones, which is happening (see Hadaf-HS).

https://depo.gov.pk/single_product.php?pid=1159

From there, you start reworking the target drones into decoys, usually with a payload of some type (like an ECM jammer), that fly alongside your manned aircraft.

In tandem, you gradually keep developing larger airframes until you reach the 2-3-ton MTOW range, at which point you can arm the UCAV with a small munitions load (enough for 2-3 SDBs or AAMs).

That is how to get to the hardware side. And that is the side that I suppose we'll get to first.

Arguably the more difficult side is the software and networking side. There needs to be an extensive pilot project that will develop the brains for such a system. I would take a Super Mushaak and some large target drone and start developing the networking and software on these systems. Mushaak is a standin for the mothership and the target drone is a standin for the loyal wingman. They are cheap to lose and operate and can be used to develop the key technologies needed for such a MUM-T system. But that's just how I would do it. I don't think such a program is ongoing but there should be.

 

[JamD]

Also, the sense that I get from talking to PAF folks is that Chengdu doesn't have much more appetite for upgrading the JF-17 beyond the block 3.

 

[Quwa]

Also, the sense that I get from talking to PAF folks is that Chengdu doesn't have much more appetite for upgrading the JF-17 beyond the block 3.

Yeah, the most I got was that the production of the JF-17B/C can continue, but with more iterative improvements, such as a better radar, for example.

The 'Block-4' description we're getting above sounds like a different fighter, IMO.

That is how to get to the hardware side. And that is the side that I suppose we'll get to first.

Arguably the more difficult side is the software and networking side. There needs to be an extensive pilot project that will develop the brains for such a system. I would take a Super Mushaak and some large target drone and start developing the networking and software on these systems. Mushaak is a standin for the mothership and the target drone is a standin for the loyal wingman. They are cheap to lose and operate and can be used to develop the key technologies needed for such a MUM-T system. But that's just how I would do it. I don't think such a program is ongoing but there should be.

Could be worth getting Baykar Group to look into...

 

[Bilal]

[

Yeah, the most I got was that the production of the JF-17B/C can continue, but with more iterative improvements, such as a better radar, for example.

The 'Block-4' description we're getting above sounds like a different fighter, IMO.

Could be worth getting Baykar Group to look into...

Having used IRST on J10C. Any chance to see one on JFT?

 

[Manticore]

 

[Quwa]

[
Having used IRST on J10C. Any chance to see one on JFT?

The market now offers relatively compact IRST solutions that should fit into the JF-17. IMO, it just depends on whether the PAF wants it or not. Perhaps the J-10CE will give them a proper look at the technology and develop a doctrine around it. If the idea works out in the field, then the PAF could expand IRST use to the JF-17 - at least the JF-17B and JF-17C, IMO.

 

[Bilal]

The market now offers relatively compact IRST solutions that should fit into the JF-17. IMO, it just depends on whether the PAF wants it or not. Perhaps the J-10CE will give them a proper look at the technology and develop a doctrine around it. If the idea works out in the field, then the PAF could expand IRST use to the JF-17 - at least the JF-17B and JF-17C, IMO.

I see resistance to certain technologies. Like a decade or so ago there was this case being presented against HMDS that it’s not being adopted because it causes disorientation and neck injury.

For IRST pilot workload was being cited, which is not valid given the sensor fusion tech already available.

 

[Quwa]

I see resistance to certain technologies. Like a decade or so ago there was this case being presented against HMDS that it’s not being adopted because it causes disorientation and neck injury.

For IRST pilot workload was being cited, which is not valid given the sensor fusion tech already available.

hmmm...perhaps...but the PAF wanted HMD/S on the JF-17 since at least Block-2, if not the Block-1 itself. If the Thales deal went through, the JF-17 would've used the TopOwl-F.

In many cases, the internal 'resistance' tends to go away once a good option and/or funding is available. Before the J-10CE, the PAF never had a good IRST option. It wasn't a feature on the F-16 or most Western fighters, and compact off-the-shelf solutions were relatively untested (e.g., Leonardo Skyward-G).

 

[Manticore]

https://imgur.com/omBaI

https://imgur.com/6DQTN

https://imgur.com/Q7qfU

http://i.imgur.com/s9MiG .jpg

https://imgur.com/3cemY

https://imgur.com/XQFvL

http://i.imgur.com/gxNmY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com /zdNW8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/h1Pnn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/K5CDF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XiEvP.jpg
http://i.imgur .com/KIsu5.jpg


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