JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[Lion]

That was a defensive action and not an offensive one. There was a reason that F-16 didn't go into enemy airspace when PAF had to send even Mirages in there.

have you considered that perhaps the entire point of a BVR capable aircraft is that it does not need to go into enemy territory to shoot at air targets?

 

[Ak01]

This is exactly what I want to tell everyone on both this and the other side of the border when they say stupid stuff like the PAF not being allowed to use its F16s freely against India.

IF the US wanted PAF to only use the F16s for COIN, why would they sell the PAF massive amounts of BVR missiles. Keep in mind this was when AIM120D wasn’t even a thing yet. The US made PAF a modern BVR capable Air Force, they did it on purpose.

Otherwise Egypt has an F16 fleet thrice the PAFs size but no BVR capability.

now paf needs amraam d for talibunny airforce lol

 

[Lion]

Heard Pakistan sent a first batch of Minerals to US worth 500M, i think we would eventually see a comeback of US-PAK defense deals.

That was a rumor (regarding delivery of minerals). There was instead a 500 million USD deal signed between FWO, NLC and a private US based minerals company for exploration, development and export of battery related minerals from Pakistan to the US. This deal is yet to actually produce anything, it only happened weeks ago. But yes it does hint towards increased trade and possible defense deals.

 

[Lion]

That was the similar BS as you have written in this post.

You're asking me what 58% parts of Thunders Kamra is making? How would I, a layman, know what many officials probably don't know. But again only a retard will ask for specific names of components being produced in Pakistan while the issue under discussion is something else. Pakistan is producing (or assembling as you claim) war planes in the country with Chinese help. Whereas the west would never have transferred the tech to do even that much in Pakistan. I am now pretty sure you are indeed comprehension issue.

Claiming that MKI is more Indian that JF-17 is Pakistani reminds me of slumdogs. I see no difference.

I have mentioned several other examples before but, again, your thick skull failed to comprehend those examples. We are producing tanks (Al Khalid, Al Zarrar, and now under license production of Haidar tanks with many indigenous sub-systems), missiles factory to produce M-9 and M-11 equivalents just to name a few. Chinese helped Pakistan a lot in nukes field too so much so by providing a nuke design and initially lending the enriched uranium to KRL. Can your western masters provide all that to Pakistan? Only a shameless but faithful dog will keep happily licking masters' feet even after getting wheat and soybeans for the money paid for the fighter jets. What a disgraced idiot.



Only a fool will pick an issue of AD (if your words taken at the face value) like that and try to urinate at the plate that he is eating from. A system failure is not something unusual. And it certainly does imply that Chinese tech is inferior across the board. Why you forget what the Chinese PL-15s, J-10Cs, SH-15, etc. have done to the enemy in May? I feel pity for you but will expose you every time you behave like an ungrateful d*g.

We all have seen your lies and shitty args. When you are caught then you start claiming Janes is not the same as it used to be.

You have picked a Chinses (i.e. AD) system and claimed it underperformed (without providing any evidence) and conveniently forgot to mention other Chinese systems that performed beyond expectations and that exposes your character and dishonesty to say the least. Your mission seems to harm Pakistan in any way.

Everyone’s already added their far more valuable two cents than me here but I’ll talk about what I know about:

The Al-Zarrar has nothing to do with China, it is a Pakistani funded project using Italian and Ukrainian technology for most of the upgrades.

The Al-Khalid is Pakistans improvement of a sub-par Chinese tank, one that China didn’t even accept into its own service. Pakistans entire plan with that thing was to remove all the lower-quality Chinese components (of that time) to replace them with western ones until China got sanctioned (followed by Pakistan). The powertrain is still Ukranian.

The Haider is also a whole other can of worms, first China refused to give ToT at all, then they said they’d only give it if we took the entire ToT instead of selective ToT like we needed, and what they supplied in the end meant HIT had to reverse engineer the whole thing anyways……

More importantly, on your point of the west never giving Pakistan any technology to do its own production, your own examples speak for me. It was Germany and China both who helped set up HIT and all its heavy machinery that allowed initial tank production in Pakistan. It was France who helped set up the gun factory in HIT that allowed Pakistan to make guns for its tanks and artillery, it was the UK that help set up the PoF and mainly Germany along with US machinery that helped modernize it. It was Germany that funded and helped set up KSEW and France had a major part to play in it’s modernization. Pakistan started producing thermal sights and tank FCS systems through French assistance. Many of the tank parts Pakistan indigenized had Ukrainian Support. France set up the MRF at PAC. The US helped set up the maintenance and rebuild facility for F-16 Engines, C-130 engines and provided qualifications & training to set up the APF at PAC . Sweden provided tooling and manufacturing capabilities to PAC to build Mushak. At various other times Italy, Ukraine, Germany, France, U.K, Sweden and the US Have stepped in to support Pakistani defense industry at the grassroots level.

I’m no fan of western governments or any government for that matter, but I will call out ignorance where I see it.

 

[puttputt]

my prediction is the PAF will select CAMM-ER, the navy was very satisfied at its performance with simulated brahmos intercepts.

It could actually go either way. PAF can integrate CAMM-ER into spada, and i know for a fact, they wanted to replace the ASPIDE missiles with something else, (skydragon 50 was the initial, very retardedly ambitious plan), hence CAMM-ER could fit quite well.

On the other hand, IRIS-T SLM could fit in well with the Current TRML based radars we have in large quantities, so literally, could go either way, both are a great option.

SL-AMRAAM could also be tied into TPS-77 MRR.

Total LIE! Dr.A.Q.khan never said that for nuclear tech. Its a huge disservice you are doing to Pakistani scientists who in 70s to 90s worked with a sole mission to make Pakistan nuclear power. Nuclear field is such field that no country, even your best friend won't like to see another nuclear power in the world. Pakistan became nuclear power ONLY because of its own human resource. Dr.A.Qkhan was great at procuring stuff and sending his team members for knowledge seeking to various parts of world . Often those missions were in Western countries (and were very risky). Why would they do it if they had China available to help in everything ??

People often confuse nuclear commercial power plants and mix them with nuclear weapon tech. Chinese contribution is STRICTLY LIMITED to nuclear commercial power plants setups. and Yes China / Korea helped in missile stuff. Ghauris were initially Koreas help, Shaheen's earliest version had chinese help. Ghauris wasn't completely Nodong as people allege. The whole control system was written at KRL, and various others bits but it was a starting point.

In the end, make sure never to spread this propaganda that china helped Pak become nuke power. Its massive disservice to all the scientists who literally dedicated their lives and sacrificed a lot for this endaveour. China did helped in missile tech and nuclear commercial power plants which are monitored by IAEA too for safety regulations.

100%. The real guts of the nuclear program was our indigenous effort to build the entire nuclear fuel cycle. In the 1950s or so, there was a cadre in Pakistan that urged the government to buy out the entire cycle via the open market as India was doing, but our leaders didn't see urgency - and once India did its tests, the entire market was closed to us. China wasn't going to help us with the cycle either. Hence, it was an indigenous effort led by Dr. M.A. Khan at PAEC with Dr. A.Q. Khan via KRL coming in to initially supporting the wider project but then later helping us accelerate via HEU. China did help with some very specific areas to move the program along, but again, we also got favours from Switzerland, Germany, etc as well. But NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE, was going to help or be implicated in selling the fuel cycle to us.

Speaking of high and dry, lets see, what happened in 65? Who stopped the spares and who came to fill in the void after. Fast forward to 71, who's promised fleet didn't show up? Kargil, why was PAF unable to challenge IAF dropping LGBs on frontlines?

How did Pakistan fill the void of those cancelled F-16s? If not for the joint dev of Jf-17 we would be a 300 F-7 fleet airforce by the 2010s. There's a limit to how much one can spin this stuff man. Sheesh, I wish you guys could sit down with the likes of Shahid Latif and Kaiser Tufail.

If PAF is again flirting with US offensive equipment... fool me once shame on you, fool me again.. Aik bil se do bar dhas, phir dhas dhas dhas..

The US provided us the military aid on the terms that we focus on the western borders, i.e., Soviet Union. From day 1, the US (like the UK before it) was against Pakistan picking a fight with India and wasn't going to arm us in ways that could disrupt the balance with India. In fact, give the books "Eagles of Destiny" a read because the authors discuss how the US also offering the F-104 to India around the same time as us.

US sanctions were the consequence of not abiding by US interests, if not contravening those interests (by disturbing India).

That said, those risks exist with the Chinese as well. In the hey-day of their economic growth in the 2000s and even early 2010s, China was NOT enthusiastic about releasing disruptive military technology to Pakistan. Rather, China's policy was for Pakistan to maintain good ties with India for the sake of regional stability and trade (India was and still is a key market for China).

It started to change once the US revised its Asia Pacific strategy and India began being a little more confrontational with China. However, the Indians are now walking that back a bit, and, to New Delhi, the goal is give China the incentive to stop arming Pakistan as much. It won't be very obvious now, but give it a few years and we'll see this become a major risk.

Basically, the point is, we need to be aware that NONE of these powers, from the US to China, are going to care about OUR interests. We HAVE to stand on our on two feet, but in lieu of our own industrial capacity and economic clout, the most we can do is ensure we're not throwing all of our eggs into ONE basket, be it China or US, and gradually work for indigenization with middle powers who have comparable high-level issues as we do.

And how would a AESA version, with serious MAWS and longstick of the Cheetah develop? Would something in the class of J-10 plus a dual pulse missile be available in 2025?

I know block 70/72 was available, but did you see the price on that thing. Not to mention, Amraam-D would never come with it.

Atlas Group was already working on a more capable Cheetah variant called the 'Super Cheetah' in the 1990s. They had acquired and tested a variant of the RD-33 on the platform and the results were good. The issue was that to make it work from an operational standpoint, they would've needed to develop the Cheetah platform further. By this point, Atlas was already manufacturing new wings, canards, and radomes for the Cheetah, but using the Mirage III's fuselage as-is. The next step, so as to make it work with the RD-33 properly, would've been to build the fuselage from scratch. So, in an effect, you would've had a new fighter aircraft.

Essentially, @arslank01's underlying point is that if we just applied some critical thinking and not had a motu becharu mindset, we could have initiated our own fighter program with the South Africans in the 1990s.

By that point, the PAF had a way deeper level of understanding on the Mirage III/5 airframe (via MRF) and know-how to build new frames also existed (via RSA). The key now would've been to build a phased development cycle, as South Africa was already doing: Phase 1 could be an aggressive M3/M5 upgrade like the Cheetah that would've given BVR and PGM capability. Phase 2 could be a new-build fighter project centered on the RD-93 via the Super Cheetah program. Phase 3 would be further design and development work to produce a 4.5-gen fighter, likely clean-sheet, but with distant lineage to the Cheetah. By Phase 3, you will have developed a strong domestic foundation for original aircraft R&D and been experts with a certain mode (e..g, delta wing config).

The tragedy here is that we Pakistanis DO know how to be creative, and innovative, and visionary. We DID achieve something through our nuclear program by indigenously building the entire nuclear fuel cycle on our own. Folks have no clue how DIFFICULT that is when your sanctioned up the @ss. Genuinely collaborating on fighter development was doable for us, but, due to one issue or another, our programming wasn't led by scientists and engineers, hence the gaps we're facing with the JF-17.

You really think A- darter could be any where as good as the Pl-15? Out range the meteor? A-darter promises would have taken shape just like the R-77s did for India, because both share a small, funding depleted set of users.

Does that look like a ramjet.. Im glad we didnt go down that route.

A-Darter is a 5th-gen WVRAAM like the PL-10E.

The more apt comparison to the PL-15 would be the Denel Marlin program, which was centered on new-gen dual-pulse motor rocket tech like the PL-15.

If we had bought into the Marlin and gotten the IP, we'd have no trouble developing our own modern AAM and SAM tech.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

That said, those risks exist with the Chinese as well. In the hey-day of their economic growth in the 2000s and even early 2010s, China was NOT enthusiastic about releasing disruptive military technology to Pakistan. Rather, China's policy was for Pakistan to maintain good ties with India for the sake of regional stability and trade (India was and still is a key market for China).

It started to change once the US revised its Asia Pacific strategy and India began being a little more confrontational with China. However, the Indians are now walking that back a bit, and, to New Delhi, the goal is give China the incentive to stop arming Pakistan as much. It won't be very obvious now, but give it a few years and we'll see this become a major risk.

Basically, the point is, we need to be aware that NONE of these powers, from the US to China, are going to care about OUR interests. We HAVE to stand on our on two feet, but in lieu of our own industrial capacity and economic clout, the most we can do is ensure we're not throwing all of our eggs into ONE basket, be it China or US, and gradually work for indigenization with middle powers who have comparable high-level issues as we do.

very valid points here. that can be an issue in the future

 

[Oscar]

You are comparing A radio....which IIRC was eventually licensed production by a different organization, to a joint manufacturing program? We produced pretty much all the 58% within Pakistan now. It was a specified part of the contract that the Chinese would assist us in setting up the line, and train the workers. "Assembly" may well have been accurate for the first few examples made in Pakistan,, but it most certainly isn't for most of the fleet. And I mean the provision of machine tools, technical support the whole lot.
Honestly the mess that our car industry (Honda I am looking at you) made has made people start saying ": assembly" for every little thing (funnily enough the automotive sector is a bit more complicated than that).

I am giving you an analogy but it sets very well. What does “produce” mean? Isn’t the JF-17 production licensed from CATIC?

Today pretty much everything on that radio is “produced” in Pakistan.

But is Pakistan providing the raw plastic for the radio?

Is Pakistan producing the aluminum for the JF-17?(perhaps it is for most parts)
Is it producing the MiL-std bus?(perhaps it is or not)
Is it producing each and every nut and bolt and wiring harness to connector pins on the 58%?

So you basically corroborating what I said regarding the number 58%
It is how you interpret it
Be it a radio
The Honda Civic
Or JF-17

 

[bravo_1]

Heard Pakistan sent a first batch of Minerals to US worth 500M, i think we would eventually see a comeback of US-PAK defense deals.

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[gamaji]

Everyone’s already added their far more valuable two cents than me here but I’ll talk about what I know about:

The Al-Zarrar has nothing to do with China, it is a Pakistani funded project using Italian and Ukrainian technology for most of the upgrades.

The Al-Khalid is Pakistans improvement of a sub-par Chinese tank, one that China didn’t even accept into its own service. Pakistans entire plan with that thing was to remove all the lower-quality Chinese components (of that time) to replace them with western ones until China got sanctioned (followed by Pakistan). The powertrain is still Ukranian.

The Haider is also a whole other can of worms, first China refused to give ToT at all, then they said they’d only give it if we took the entire ToT instead of selective ToT like we needed, and what they supplied in the end meant HIT had to reverse engineer the whole thing anyways……

More importantly, on your point of the west never giving Pakistan any technology to do its own production, your own examples speak for me. It was Germany and China both who helped set up HIT and all its heavy machinery that allowed initial tank production in Pakistan. It was France who helped set up the gun factory in HIT that allowed Pakistan to make guns for its tanks and artillery, it was the UK that help set up the PoF and mainly Germany along with US machinery that helped modernize it. It was Germany that funded and helped set up KSEW and France had a major part to play in it’s modernization. Pakistan started producing thermal sights and tank FCS systems through French assistance. Many of the tank parts Pakistan indigenized had Ukrainian Support. France set up the MRF at PAC. The US helped set up the maintenance and rebuild facility for F-16 Engines, C-130 engines and provided qualifications & training to set up the APF at PAC . Sweden provided tooling and manufacturing capabilities to PAC to build Mushak. At various other times Italy, Ukraine, Germany, France, U.K, Sweden and the US Have stepped in to support Pakistani defense industry at the grassroots level.

I’m no fan of western governments or any government for that matter, but I will call out ignorance where I see it.

An informative post. Thanks for calling out ignorance. Keep it up please.

No one knows everything. We all have a factor of ignorance, big or small. Sharing your knowledge is the way to go. Really appreciated.

 

[puttputt]

I am giving you an analogy but it sets very well. What does “produce” mean? Isn’t the JF-17 production licensed from CATIC?

Today pretty much everything on that radio is “produced” in Pakistan.

But is Pakistan providing the raw plastic for the radio?

Is Pakistan producing the aluminum for the JF-17?(perhaps it is for most parts)
Is it producing the MiL-std bus?(perhaps it is or not)
Is it producing each and every nut and bolt and wiring harness to connector pins on the 58%?

So you basically corroborating what I said regarding the number 58%
It is how you interpret it
Be it a radio
The Honda Civic
Or JF-17

I think the more apt way to understand if what we're "producing" means anything is to judge based on valuation, i.e., how much of the value of said program do we source locally?

So, for the JF-17, the engine is from abroad, the electronics are sourced from abroad, part of the airframe comes from China, the aluminium is mostly imported, and so on.

We're obviously not generating 58% of the JF-17's actual value locally. OTOH, Indians source like 60%+ value of the SU-30MKI locally, e.g., key parts of the engine are manufactured from scratch in India, aerostructures are manufactured locally with locally forged aluminium and fabricated composites, etc.

The problem with the JF-17 is that we never quite transitioned it from being a PAF project to an aerospace industry program whereby the local industry gets to engage in sourcing more valuable inputs.

 

[gamaji]

have you considered that perhaps the entire point of a BVR capable aircraft is that it does not need to go into enemy territory to shoot at air targets?

Sir, there is a difference in posturing. If I understand correctly then F-16s fired missiles on Indian planes only in defense of other PAF planes participating in the fight.
Indians tried even that to complain with the US saying it was a violation of the terms set between the US and Pak.

 

[Ak01]

Indians tried even that to complain with the US saying it was a violation of the terms set between the US and Pak.

how would India know what terms were set between the US and Pak?

 

[gamaji]

how would India know what terms were set between the US and Pak?

I don't know. Probably based on what was assured to them from the seller side. What we all know that Indians complained to the US that F-16s were used against them.
However, using PAF F-16s for only defensive purpose was talked much before (early 2000s) than 2019 episode. No one has confirmed it or denied it though.

 

[FarhanSiddiqui]

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We need to upgrade F-16s to Block V that can be upgraded.

 

[Bilal]

Germany: sold PAF all the stuff needed to do domestic upgrades to MPDR's, upgrading them into modern AESA arrays. Optronics for PAF's UAV fleet, Sub fleet. Air defence also on the cards. Submarines on the table.

Saab: Sold PAF Erieyes, which are integrated and modified to suit PAF operational needs. Not to mention other equiptment still on the table.

France: Literally tried to transfer the entire Mirage F1 production line to Pakistan- ToT of Agosta class, support for the program to this day. +Life support systems for JF-17. Heck, they even created a custom scorpene variant for Pakistan.

Spain: EW systems for the JF-17, HIT's AIMS is a spanish system.

Italy: Frigates, Submarines, Air defence, EW, Radars, etc...

UK: Literally offered PAF their Tranche 1 typhoons for free, alongside a new build typhoon deal.

Korea: Artillery, Aircraft, sensors all on offer.

USA: Literally basically built a huge chunk of PAF's ASR network via TPS77's and then a follow up sale of TPS77MRR in the previous trump admin. Also literally offered to sell F-16V's to PAF. Not to mention is targeting more aircraft sales to the PAF.

Chinese ToT- JF-17 assembly- not even ToT, Hangor i guess? HIT had some SERIOUS qualms with the Haider project @Lion and their 'TOT'.

Stop the dickriding, You're a customer for China, the same as you are for all these other states, transferring tech is ONLY possible if you can ABSORB the tech lol. Good call, Pak should request ToT for Typhoons, will we produce them at the roadside ?

Sweden: won’t sell any “offensive” system. Everything available for indian.

Korea: won’t sell us anything anymore in effort to gain indian orders.

France: same. Plus blocked Subs/ mirages under upgrade during escalations.

US: on and off sanctions.

The truth is somewhere in between. None of them would provide emergency supplies of systems like we got post 2019.

Italy and Spain have been reliable though. Specially, Italy.