Mirage III / V of Pakistan Air Force

[Ali_Baba]

2. CATIC is a trading agency that deals directly with the PAF (Pakistan Air Force). It does not have the authority to withhold payments from cooperating organizations such as CETC and AECC. After these organizations deliver the products, CATIC must pay them the full amount within a payment period (usually within 3-6 months after delivery).
In China, in all commercial collaborations, the integrator is required to pay the supplier the full amount within a payment period, with a maximum extension of one additional payment period. Any deferred or installment payment terms agreed upon with the customer are the responsibility of the integrator, who bears the risk and financial pressure, or are handled by professional financial institutions or banks.

This is how Lockheed Martin does it with the same constraints. They don't seem to have problems with it.

CATIC providing preferential payment terms to Pakistan is based on the trust relationship between the two parties. This is beyond reproach.

However, CATIC's financial capacity and risk tolerance are insufficient to support the extremely long-term installment payment terms for the larger order of 36 FC-31/J-35 aircraft. It requires the involvement of financial institutions and banks.

This is how Lockheed Martin does it with the same constraints. They don't seem problems with it. I really don't understand why you term a normal procurement and payment model as "preferential, or lenient". You have not said anything that suggest that is indeed the case.

 

[Ak01]

This is how Lockheed Martin does it with the same constraints. They don't seem problems with it. I really don't understand why you term a normal procurement and payment model as "preferential, or lenient". You have not said anything that suggest that is indeed the case.

yes, market interest rates and terms.

he seems to have the view that its a favour done.

If arms sales were not key to the Chinese, the J-35 would not exist, after all, it started off as an export product. Nor would the Chinese be developing vast swathes of export kit. It may not be policy NOW as China does not have the clout to push equipt into markets like GCC, but when it does offer competitive stuff or things that cant be accessed elsewhere, i.e J35, i bet you he'll be singing a different song.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

I don't know about the timeline but it is definitely on cards... 2 sqn of J-10 and 2 of J-35 are planned by PAF to be acquired in near future... F-16s are a separate issue as USA's political decisions make the upgrade very complicated...
However, with current relations, we may see the upgrade of Blk 52 to 70 standard with Pakistan's name in FMS list of AIM-120D... the upgrade of MLU and ADF may not be possible but we can always get more F-16s if USA allows... in the end, it will come down to geopolitics and economic resources.

Sir do we can spare that much money for both the J10C and J35 2 squadrons? At the same time it is injustice if we stick to only two sqhadrons of J10C? It should atleast be 5 squadron. I heard china has stopped the further production of J10C too. For F16 i still think just keeping one block 52 squadron is a burden on PAF maintenance team. Either procure atleast one more squadron or sale the only squadron to some other country and on that money procure more J10c

 

[AeronautIR]

Sir do we can spare that much money for both the J10C and J35 2 squadrons? At the same time it is injustice if we stick to only two sqhadrons of J10C? It should atleast be 5 squadron. I heard china has stopped the further production of J10C too. For F16 i still think just keeping one block 52 squadron is a burden on PAF maintenance team. Either procure atleast one more squadron or sale the only squadron to some other country and on that money procure more J10c

Hold on dude I don't know about future plans of PAF... the acquisition of 36-40 J-10 and 36 J-35 aircraft has been decided already and these will be inducted in near future...
About F-16s, it is another issue because as I said before, USA involves Geopolitics in all the military deals so it gets complicated due to those strings attached with any weapon system...
The decision for upgrading Vipers will depend upon political and economic factors more the strategic ones.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

This is the fallacy of those individuals who say that we "should keep the mirages" because they are Mirage fanboys, and often cannot explain the miliary cost efficiency ratio when challenged. ie it take 2 Mirages to deliver 1 H4 SOW with the risk of line of sight targetting. A JF17 can deliver 4 Cruise missiles on a fire-forget basis. Surely, maintaining 1 pilot and 1 jet is better than 12 pilots/WSO and 8 planes to do the same job of delivering just 4 cruise missiles.

PAF would love to get shot of the F7/Mirages now if it had the cash. This isn't a 'we think there is capability there we need", it is a "we can't afford to replace them yet"..

I think the only reason for PAF if they will keep mirages or F7 PG, is to have the number of pilots actively trained ans them.shifted to other fighters. I mean their purpose will only be for training and keeping the active number of pilots high. 1 JF is definitely better than 2 mirages or 4 PG but 2 or 4 mirages will keep the level of active pilots upto the minimum standard which JF cant or we will need to procure advance LIFT or more JFs especially bravo

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Hold on dude I don't know about future plans of PAF... the acquisition of 36-40 J-10 and 36 J-35 aircraft has been decided already and these will be inducted in near future...
About F-16s, it is another issue because as I said before, USA involves Geopolitics in all the military deals so it gets complicated due to those strings attached with any weapon system...
The decision for upgrading Vipers will depend upon political and economic factors more the strategic ones.

I know you dont know..being once in service i am just asking your opinion which may not happen.. so if you have to decide what would your strategy would be with our limited financing?

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

F-7 P has been retired but I think F-7 PG will stay in OCU and LIFT role to train young pilots till 2028-29...

I recall discussions about PAF procuring the L-15 trainer/light attack aircraft, with rumors of a 6+6 delivery slated for 2027-2028, around the time the J-35 is expected. These are just rumors and no official confirmation.
Is this procurement still active or under consideration and what is the latest available information?

I thought Turkey might be pushing Hürjet to PAF but Pakistan will most likely go with less riskier option, L-15.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

Hold on dude I don't know about future plans of PAF... the acquisition of 36-40 J-10 and 36 J-35 aircraft has been decided already and these will be inducted in near future...
About F-16s, it is another issue because as I said before, USA involves Geopolitics in all the military deals so it gets complicated due to those strings attached with any weapon system...
The decision for upgrading Vipers will depend upon political and economic factors more the strategic ones.

In your opinion, how much work is done on KAAN and PFX projects? What is the current status of these projects and you analysis? Let’s discuss post 2030 scenario.

 

[AeronautIR]

In your opinion, how much work is done on KAAN and PFX projects? What is the current status of these projects and you analysis? Let’s discuss post 2030 scenario.

Problem is not the aircraft design but engine in my opinion... if KAAN is still flying with US engine in 2030, I don't see PAF getting it, just like ATAK T-129 gunship... that's why I always say that any breakthrough in engine will be a bigger success for me...
I think we will see a JF-17 PFX or block 4 or Alpha, which will be a semi-stealth 4.5 gen and it will be bigger than JF, maybe closer to J-10 in size...
Once we operationalize J-35 and TuAF inducts KAAN, our indigenous stealth will benefit from both... then we will have the option of using Chinese engine for it if we or Turkey haven't made one yet...
In short, we may see post 2030 PAF with a better JF variant or maybe a new 4.5 gen to replace Block I Thunders, block 2 upgraded with AESA, J-10C, J-35, F-16 (hopefully upgraded) and clarity about KAAN or our own 5th-gen.

 

[AeronautIR]

I think the only reason for PAF if they will keep mirages or F7 PG, is to have the number of pilots actively trained ans them.shifted to other fighters. I mean their purpose will only be for training and keeping the active number of pilots high. 1 JF is definitely better than 2 mirages or 4 PG but 2 or 4 mirages will keep the level of active pilots upto the minimum standard which JF cant or we will need to procure advance LIFT or more JFs especially bravo

Mirages are going to be phased out in a couple of years but F-7PG may stay for OCU/LIFT role till we get L-15..

 

[AeronautIR]

I recall discussions about PAF procuring the L-15 trainer/light attack aircraft, with rumors of a 6+6 delivery slated for 2027-2028, around the time the J-35 is expected. These are just rumors and no official confirmation.
Is this procurement still active or under consideration and what is the latest available information?

I thought Turkey might be pushing Hürjet to PAF but Pakistan will most likely go with less riskier option, L-15.

It all comes down to priorities with our limited budget... we will buy fighters and air defence systems first and then go for L-15 in coming years.
I agree with you about L-15 being better option because US engines in Turkish built aircraft can be a big issue for their export.

 

[AeronautIR]

I know you dont know..being once in service i am just asking your opinion which may not happen.. so if you have to decide what would your strategy would be with our limited financing?

Tricky question... at tactical level, we don't have to worry about economy, foreign policy, geopolitics etc. like people at grand strategic level have to.
However, even without these considerations, the advantage of a bit diverse fleet is that you are not dependent on just one supplier.
I think if we can afford the Viper upgrade and it is feasible for us in longer term, we should go for it.
2 J-10C and 2 J-35 sqns with PL-15/16/17 are good enough to counter IAF.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

Problem is not the aircraft design but engine in my opinion... if KAAN is still flying with US engine in 2030, I don't see PAF getting it, just like ATAK T-129 gunship... that's why I always say that any breakthrough in engine will be a bigger success for me...
I think we will see a JF-17 PFX or block 4 or Alpha, which will be a semi-stealth 4.5 gen and it will be bigger than JF, maybe closer to J-10 in size...
Once we operationalize J-35 and TuAF inducts KAAN, our indigenous stealth will benefit from both... then we will have the option of using Chinese engine for it if we or Turkey haven't made one yet...
In short, we may see post 2030 PAF with a better JF variant or maybe a new 4.5 gen to replace Block I Thunders, block 2 upgraded with AESA, J-10C, J-35, F-16 (hopefully upgraded) and clarity about KAAN or our own 5th-gen.

Thank you for your insight. I wanted to get your prospective on these.

I believe Pakistan's long term airpower strategy is shifting slightly from foreign dependence toward sovereign capability, centered on two key fighter programs developed in partnership with Türkiye and domestically.

KAAN (Heavy Fighter): A joint project with Türkiye to field a high-end air superiority platform.
Limited Production: 2028–2030 (GE engine)
Serial Production: 2030–2032 (First Pakistani units expected in early 2030s)

PFX (Medium Fighter 4.5/5 Generation): Pakistan's indigenous stealth program designed to replace F‑16s, JF-17 block 1/2 and ensure strategic autonomy.
Prototype & Testing: 2030
Limited Production: 2031 - 2033
Serial Production: 2035

This strategy follows a deliberate modernization path includes JF-17 Block III which provides an affordable, capable backbone; the J-10C introduces higher performance; and the planned J-35 adds stealth. The KAAN and PFX represent the ultimate goal of independent, cutting edge production.

Cooperation with Türkiye is expected to deepen, potentially extending to next-generation missiles and air defense systems. While technical or geopolitical challenges could alter schedules, these programs underscore Pakistan's commitment to controlling the design, technology, and long term support of its future air force.

 

[Be dazzled]

Isn’t this thread for Mirages?

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Tricky question... at tactical level, we don't have to worry about economy, foreign policy, geopolitics etc. like people at grand strategic level have to.
However, even without these considerations, the advantage of a bit diverse fleet is that you are not dependent on just one supplier.
I think if we can afford the Viper upgrade and it is feasible for us in longer term, we should go for it.
2 J-10C and 2 J-35 sqns with PL-15/16/17 are good enough to counter IAF.

Thank you for your time and reply. Will we consider

In short, we may see post 2030 PAF with a better JF variant or maybe a new 4.5 gen to replace Block I Thunders, block 2 upgraded with AESA, J-10C, J-35, F-16 (hopefully upgraded) and clarity about KAAN or our own 5th-gen.

What we will use for air to ground operation? i mean as a bomber? JF? It has a very less maximum weapons payload.