PA Options against Indian Armour - ATGMs on MANPADS & Attack Gunship Helicopter - News & Discussions

[KingQamaR]

You don’t see them fighting now to survive in their state as a cohesive unit - what do you expect in an actual bullets flying scenario?
That is folly but it is precisely why the nuclear weapons exist. There are very shallow red lines for the conflict and the escalation ladders exist to halt India at a point and force a retreat.

If not, the mechanisms and decision processes to essentially ensure a MAD scenario are so well baked into the Pakistani command infrastructure that it will take decades of concentrated efforts to break them or moles at every level to stop it.

That idea of irrecoverable and long standing damage to India is why the Pakistani nuclear deterrent still works.

Congratulations to the people of Pakistan The people have spoke through election results. With all the grim dark news around Pakistan as of late. Pakistan & Pakistanis are not giving up. peaceful option like they have been. In the long run if they are only left with one other option which is resistance with violence it is there right to defend their livelihood and their country by any means necessary Is that what you are asking?

 

[Oscar]

Congratulations to the people of Pakistan The people have spoke through election results. With all the grim dark news around Pakistan as of late. Pakistan & Pakistanis are not giving up. peaceful option like they have been. In the long run if they are only left with one other option which is resistance with violence it is there right to defend their livelihood and their country by any means necessary Is that what you are asking?

The election results are talking to the people - which is about to die down as they did not see any win as such and are defeated again. The problem with the fighting spirit you speak of is that its very short term and does not have long lasting impacts.

We can have an entire discussion on why that is so but is is beyond the scope of this thread - suffice to say that the French also thought that the combination of the Maginot line and their Elan(fighting spirit) would stop the Germans and we all know how that played out.

 

[KingQamaR]

To return to the core of the topic - measures and countermeasures are a rolling element in military warfare. But its the one with deeper pockets that will win eventually.

ATGMs have been replaced by Drones in the Ukrainian conflict but that doesn’t mean ATGMs dont have their usefulness and effectiveness since they require higher reaction times from any Active protection systems on tanks.

Keep in mind, while ATGMs can be plentiful - unless you’re firing tens upon tens of them at an advancing column - it takes a lot more to stop it coming through.

Finally, while some similarities exist in the battlefield of Eastern Ukraine - to take it as an analogy while completely ignoring the very varied and very different topography of the subcontinent along with as @nahtanbob as correctly pointed out the economics of that conflict… is folly.

Case in point - Russia still is able to not only replenish horrendous losses it is taking due to drones and Javelins in Ukraine, its doing so with a combination of new builds and an apparent blackhole of USSR stockpiles of old weapons.

For both sides in India and Pakistan - while there is plentiful armor - neither can churn out tanks nor find caverns of old stocks ready to go in a moment’s notice.

I'd say that armed drones definitely make things HARDER, but certainly don't make tanks obsolete. I mean, Allied air supremacy over Normandy certainly didn't make Panzers useless, the tactics just needed to be adapted and new skills learned. It's always a give-and-tank between weapons systems, l imagine it won't take long (relatively speaking) before systems are fielded to scramble or interfere with a drone's interface or targeting, or even some sort of system to shut it down or jam its control link, and we'll be back to square one. Right now, drones are proving a useful and adaptable weapon, but considering how many times tanks have been declared as obsolete in the past century, I don't see them going away in our lifetimes.

 

[KingQamaR]

The election results are talking to the people - which is about to die down as they did not see any win as such and are defeated again. The problem with the fighting spirit you speak of is that its very short term and does not have long lasting impacts.

We can have an entire discussion on why that is so but is is beyond the scope of this thread - suffice to say that the French also thought that the combination of the Maginot line and their Elan(fighting spirit) would stop the Germans and we all know how that played out.

Goes to show. If you go against the US interests. That's where you'll end up Tinpot country. Anyone surprised

 

[Joe Shearer]

Ill dispute that - from a personal perspective for the eastern front. There are too many indicators that it was a case of letting that side go - on the other hand the defense in the west was fairly spirited although in retrospect the ratio then was also 1:1.

It was. Both the disastrous attempt at lunging at an off balance Indian defence in the desert, and the far more successful assault by Eftekhar Janjua were, Not merely spirited, but well conceived. Even the attack that was aborted by the debacle at Longewala frightened Khambatta into abandoning his own plans.

My point was different.

My point was that even at such a critical time, the effort did not last.

 

[nahtanbob]

West Pakistan had lost East Pakistan long before the 1971 War. It really made no logic to continue hostilities east Pakistanis got what they wanted.

You could have seized Indian territory as a bargaining chip. Of course it works both ways

 

[Oscar]

I'd say that armed drones definitely make things HARDER, but certainly don't make tanks obsolete. I mean, Allied air supremacy over Normandy certainly didn't make Panzers useless, the tactics just needed to be adapted and new skills learned. It's always a give-and-tank between weapons systems, l imagine it won't take long (relatively speaking) before systems are fielded to scramble or interfere with a drone's interface or targeting, or even some sort of system to shut it down or jam its control link, and we'll be back to square one. Right now, drones are proving a useful and adaptable weapon, but considering how many times tanks have been declared as obsolete in the past century, I don't see them going away in our lifetimes.

Those systems are already fielded but affordability is key - while the Ukrainian production capacity is now unmatched for FPVs the same cannot be tried in Pakistan due to a combination of economics and lack of support (rather the opposite) for the private sector (other than a select favored few) to do so.

You will find plenty of operators available for such FPVs and willing “volunteer” combatants to use them - that will provide a blunting capability to a larger armored force but it will also require a rethinking of operational planning because now what is being pushed a maneuver warfare in the desert - somewhat similar to the Ukranian front in the north - and then the exception gaps here and there.

Now Im going beyond my depth so tagging @Quwa and @Signalian
The Desert has different applications for day/night/season and is either rapid movement - dispersal -not too different from what was seen from Coalition forces in GW2.

ATGM teams have places to hide in that environment but the desert makes it pretty sporty to use ATGMs beyond prepared positions - not to mention shrubbery and so on for wired systems which us the majority of what Pakistan has and until the Indians field more Nags and Javelins for their vehicles that’s what they have too.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You could have seized Indian territory as a bargaining chip. Of course it works both ways

LOL. They did, those lousy, crazy, fighting fools.
Yes, it works both ways. We got, and held on tight, to Turtuk!

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The US Javelin equivalent ROKETSAN Karaok with the following specs can be a good addition to decimate the armored at a close range. Karaok has gone into serial production with an export win to Malaysia. Pak can secure a local production with the TOT...

Technical Specifications​

Diameter	125 mm
Weight	< 16 kg [Missile + Launching Tube]
Range	2,5 km

Warhead Type	Armour Piercing Tandem
Attack Modes	Direct Attack / Top Attack
Operation Modes	Fire-and-Forget

Roketsan - KARAOK Short-Range Anti-Tank Weapon

www.roketsan.com.tr

 

[Joe Shearer]

until the Indians field more Nags and Javelins for their vehicles that’s what they have too.

Considering the strengths and weaknesses of the Indian Armed Forces, it would be preferable for them to base their tactics on massed artillery, on ATAGS regiments, with one self propelled regiment per artillery division.
There are immediately available converted M46 Soviet era 130 mm guns, with barrels and breech block exchanged to 155 mm, and any number of 105 mm field guns that have successfully been mated to light trucks.
The only way to stop this method of penetration would be counter battery fire, and how much of that is possible against a full division?

 

[GatlingGun]

Did pakistan buy any z-10E with Longbow typ radar ??
Has z-10E delivery begun?

 

[Oscar]

Considering the strengths and weaknesses of the Indian Armed Forces, it would be preferable for them to base their tactics on massed artillery, on ATAGS regiments, with one self propelled regiment per artillery division.
There are immediately available converted M46 Soviet era 130 mm guns, with barrels and breech block exchanged to 155 mm, and any number of 105 mm field guns that have successfully been mated to light trucks.
The only way to stop this method of penetration would be counter battery fire, and how much of that is possible against a full division?

Not too much and while expanded deployments were made in counter battery radars the problem is that even if suppression could be brought to bear - its timing might be a little late for some occasions.

Both sides have invested heavily in MLRS systems which could counter artillery but then they have their own countermeasures and so on. What might be possible is use of the loitering systems to pick out artillery systems in quick succession.

After all, is not all everyone keeps firing when you see 2-3 systems hit(the old how many crows will be left on the fence if you shoot 2… none they’ll fly away) - but eventually it will come down to the time to regroup. That probably may be the difference between a quick or extremely bloody and costly victory or forced stalemate due to TNW threat in such a scenario

 

[KingQamaR]

For both armies , Staying hydrated and keeping sand out of their machinery and weapons and depending on the desert wild temperature swings between day and night. Not a pleasant environment for man or machinery.

 

[Joe Shearer]

For both armies , Staying hydrated and keeping sand out of their machinery and weapons and depending on the desert wild temperature swings between day and night. Not a pleasant environment for man or machinery.

I think it was PanzerKiel who reminded us that the sand of the Thar was substantially different from that of the Sahara.
What worked there would not work here.
Our Russian tanks are designed for ultra cold weather. Using them south of Sri Ganganagar amounts to unnatural cruelty.
The tank that WAS designed for the Thar was resisted at every step by the Army. Go figure.

 

[nahtanbob]

Considering the strengths and weaknesses of the Indian Armed Forces, it would be preferable for them to base their tactics on massed artillery, on ATAGS regiments, with one self propelled regiment per artillery division.
There are immediately available converted M46 Soviet era 130 mm guns, with barrels and breech block exchanged to 155 mm, and any number of 105 mm field guns that have successfully been mated to light trucks.
The only way to stop this method of penetration would be counter battery fire, and how much of that is possible against a full division?

Isn't the advantage of artillery is that it can be deployed against both China and Pakistan ?