PA Options against Indian Armour - ATGMs on MANPADS & Attack Gunship Helicopter - News & Discussions

[KingQamaR]

That does not always happen.
1971, surely, was an existential crisis. It lasted less than a month.

Once 100 million east Pakistanis 1000 miles revolted. The War was lost. It would have been a Hercules effort to turn that disaster a round.

Just to close the loop.
Assuming an armoured division consumes 50,000 MT per day. It's daily supply will need 5,000 lorries (standard Ashok Leyland lorries with 12 MT capacity, loaded at 10 MT).
FUEL TANK - 375 LITRES
CONSUMPTION - 5 KMS PER LITRE
RANGE - 1,875 KMS
That is at starting point
For every 10 kms forward, assume 5% losses due to attrition.
At point 0 + 10, lorries needed 5000/95*100= 5263 lorries,
and so on.
Targets within Pakistan are within 300 kms of any starting point within Indian territory (not to be taken seriously please, just to fill out the argument).
That will give a realistic picture of sustainability of operations.
Clearly there are limits due to road and load carrying capacity. This is just an outline sketch, to give a feel.
There are, on the other hand, no limits on lorry numbers. The smaller manufacturer makes 16,000 vehicles a month.

The Pakistan military to this day would largely field infantry to counter any tank offensives due to the fact that infantry, while not nearly as mobile, can fortify and hold positions easily. We invest a lot of money into anti tank systems, the Pakistani anti tank system is a good example of this.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Once 100 million east Pakistanis 1000 miles revolted. The War was lost. It would have been a Hercules effort to turn that disaster a round.



The Pakistan military to this day would largely field infantry to counter any tank offensives due to the fact that infantry, while not nearly as mobile, can fortify and hold positions easily. We invest a lot of money into anti tank systems, the Pakistani anti tank system is a good example of this.

You do know the most effective attack against infantry?
That's where this discussion started, too.

 

[KingQamaR]

You do know the most effective attack against infantry?
That's where this discussion started, too.

Finally the answer the age-old question infantry or tank first

 

[Joe Shearer]

Finally the answer the age-old question infantry or tank first

Artillery first.
10 artillery divisions on the western front, less three existing, seven new. Add another seven for Northern command. Total 14.
324 per division. So need over 4,500 guns. That's about 9 years' production.

 

[KingQamaR]

Because effectiveness of artillery depends on information Field Artillery Direct Fire is HOLY SHIT TIME, if you can see the enemy they can see you and you can bet they won't pass up on the chance to take you out.

 

[Bigda_Jatt]

Like aircraft carriers made battleships obsolete, similarly drones have almost killed the Tanks on the battlefield.
I will be happy to be proven wrong; However, Drones are soon going to become more lethal and Hard to kill, on the other hand tanks with anti-air capability are a far-fetched idea.
I don't know how tanks will perform if they move with SAM systems and considering how costly SAM systems are, it would be good if Drones can be pitched against drones on the battlefield.

 

[nahtanbob]

Yes, when the choice is to lose even more or against an existential threat. As bad as it is there are some things that are worse. So PLs do expect the Pakistanis to fight on until hostilities seize this would be there national survival it has no time frame on the length war.is short or long.

That is not the answer I expect from a military planner. If my military planner gave me such an answer I will fire him for incompetence. The truth is that you do not have money to fight beyond a week. If you fight by some chance for six months you are looking at complete economic collapse. India was in a similar situation 40 years ago. But they are well beyond that.

@Joe Shearer This is why you do not waste your resources building 10000 tanks or 1000 combat aircraft

 

[nahtanbob]

That does not always happen.
1971, surely, was an existential crisis. It lasted less than a month.

Any reason why the Pakistani army did not continue operations in West even after East Pakistan collapsed @KingQamaR

 

[Quwa]

Not with the river crossing capabilities IA has but we may also he ignoring the elephant in the room(or I could be making it up in error). Unlike Ukraine, Pakistan has a lot less land to lose before its “internal organs” are reached.

Most of the industrialization is not that far from the border in Punjab - and then the main communication arteries (currently) the same.

So its not a case of allowing the loss of territory like Ukraine and still keeping a fight on.

Aside from expediency, any idea why the industrial presence wasn't moved or extended to KP and Baluchistan? I feel as though the economic activity would've helped integrate the people there and stabilized those regions.

 

[Oscar]

That does not always happen.
1971, surely, was an existential crisis. It lasted less than a month.

Ill dispute that - from a personal perspective for the eastern front. There are too many indicators that it was a case of letting that side go - on the other hand the defense in the west was fairly spirited although in retrospect the ratio then was also 1:1.

 

[Oscar]

Aside from expediency, any idea why the industrial presence wasn't moved or extended to KP and Baluchistan? I feel as though the economic activity would've helped integrate the people there and stabilized those regions.

A lack of infrastructure to support it - and inability of the state to guarantee security especially in Balochistan.

 

[Oscar]

Any reason why the Pakistani army did not continue operations in West even after East Pakistan collapsed @KingQamaR

Complete and utter lack of commitment by the leadership. The entire counteroffensive under Tikka Khan for which the air force was asked to reserve its strength was abandoned with the stroke of a pen.

 

[Oscar]

Yes, when the choice is to lose even more or against an existential threat. As bad as it is there are some things that are worse. So PLs do expect the Pakistanis to fight on until hostilities seize this would be there national survival it has no time frame on the length war.is short or long.

You don’t see them fighting now to survive in their state as a cohesive unit - what do you expect in an actual bullets flying scenario?
That is folly but it is precisely why the nuclear weapons exist. There are very shallow red lines for the conflict and the escalation ladders exist to halt India at a point and force a retreat.

If not, the mechanisms and decision processes to essentially ensure a MAD scenario are so well baked into the Pakistani command infrastructure that it will take decades of concentrated efforts to break them or moles at every level to stop it.

That idea of irrecoverable and long standing damage to India is why the Pakistani nuclear deterrent still works.

 

[KingQamaR]

Any reason why the Pakistani army did not continue operations in West even after East Pakistan collapsed @KingQamaR

West Pakistan had lost East Pakistan long before the 1971 War. It really made no logic to continue hostilities east Pakistanis got what they wanted.

 

[Oscar]

To return to the core of the topic - measures and countermeasures are a rolling element in military warfare. But its the one with deeper pockets that will win eventually.

ATGMs have been replaced by Drones in the Ukrainian conflict but that doesn’t mean ATGMs dont have their usefulness and effectiveness since they require higher reaction times from any Active protection systems on tanks.

Keep in mind, while ATGMs can be plentiful - unless you’re firing tens upon tens of them at an advancing column - it takes a lot more to stop it coming through.

Finally, while some similarities exist in the battlefield of Eastern Ukraine - to take it as an analogy while completely ignoring the very varied and very different topography of the subcontinent along with as @nahtanbob as correctly pointed out the economics of that conflict… is folly.

Case in point - Russia still is able to not only replenish horrendous losses it is taking due to drones and Javelins in Ukraine, its doing so with a combination of new builds and an apparent blackhole of USSR stockpiles of old weapons.

For both sides in India and Pakistan - while there is plentiful armor - neither can churn out tanks nor find caverns of old stocks ready to go in a moment’s notice.