PAF F-16 | Discussions

[Meengla]

4 years to approve a simple maintenance and upgrade contract, but people still think new builds are possible….

4 years of wait is giving the F-16 credible airworthy extension 'through 2040' and Indians are in angst about it.

 

[Meengla]

Because this proposal does not align with China’s diplomatic strategy, China does not practice power politics; whether it is war or trade war, China is the passive countering side.

Friend: China does practice power politics. Every country which has the military power does. Those without the military power, such as the modern Japan, are the mercy of greater powers.
As to the rest of your post: It would be either offtopic or I just don't agree with you. But I hope you change your profile name to something where people are able to reference/quote you? That would be helpful to your own self, you know?! In that vein, non-Latin characters should not be allowed in an international forum like this at least in profile names? @Fatman17 ??

 

[Oscar]

Yes, agreed, and I don't know about others but what I'm opining is: phase out older MLUs after the current upgrade.

What I mean is to have the older F-16s replace the even older Mirage systems. So the MLUs can take up the role of rear defense formation, interceptors inside Pakistan's airspace, and for Western operations (which with the current upgrade on table makes them more formidable than the Mirages?).

So, simply, retire the Mirages and replace them with MLUs. The remaining numbers can then be balanced out with Block 52+ getting full V-upgrade (possibly even inducting a squardon or two of new F-16V) + more J-10s and JFTs Block III + one squadron at least of J-35s.

IMO, if done as above, PAF can force multiply in the next 10-15 years without creating a capability vacuum (by losing the reliability of the F-system) and financially/diplomatically burdening itself.

MLUs are going to be phased out. The options for the PAF that makes the most sense is to upgrade the Block-52s to V standard and do a new buy of 18 Block 72s.

The MLUs will continue to work as bomb trucks and also help out in operations against the Afghan menace. JF-17s will take up the work of the F-7s as they have and eventually by the time the MLUs get to the end of their lives the PAF should have a 5th Gen system ready to take over those squadrons.

PAF should ideally aim for no more than 4 Fighter types or families at most.
The F-16s can do exactly what the Mirages have been - keep the common type with various variants(MLU, V, 72s). The JF-17 can also take that concept with Block-2s,3s and whatever final form PFX will be. That will leave two options on the 5th Gen side with one very focused on air superiority in J-35 and one more of an all round deep strike aircraft in Kaan.

 

[White Privilege]

View attachment 164722

What are 6 inert bomb bodies for?? Can those be mated with nuclear warheads??
Do the new ADU-981 missile adapters essentially enable the aircraft to carry C8 and 9X ??

 

[White Privilege]

.....But yes, there's a thing in the deal that is purely F-16V/Blk72; it's not SLEP .....

Are those the C8/D3 and 9X capable ADU 981 missile adapters??

 

[rafale]

AIM-120 C8's are hella expensive and D3 is crazy expensive. 200 rounds of C8 cost around 400-500 Million$ and 400-500 D3 rounds are upwards of Billion dollar.

The V-Upgrade costs for 75 planes are not something that can be covered with CSF funds.

those many missiles will not be needed since PAF will definitely not go for MLU F-16s upgrades to V standard.......so at best you are looking at two squadrons worth of F-16s that are V standard.........so 200 C8/D3 missiles will suffice.

Also, Isn't C8 and D3 the same missile, with minor exceptions in software and USAF specific control logics? One is for export customers (considering how close that export customer is) and the other is for USAF/USN own use?

 

[东风夜放花千树]

Friend: China does practice power politics. Every country which has the military power does. Those without the military power, such as the modern Japan, are the mercy of greater powers.
As to the rest of your post: It would be either offtopic or I just don't agree with you. But I hope you change your profile name to something where people are able to reference/quote you? That would be helpful to your own self, you know?! In that vein, non-Latin characters should not be allowed in an international forum like this at least in profile names? @Fatman17 ??

The name I applied to register complies with the regulations, so why am I being asked to change it? If you don’t like my comments, you can report them or choose not to reply; that’s your freedom. I’m expressing my opinions, not just for you to see—it’s my freedom. If you quote my remarks, wait until I respond before criticizing me. Are you out of your mind? Have you been in the U.S. too long that you’ve started acting like Americans, always quick to blame others?

You say Japan has no military force but possesses greater benevolence. Japan directly discharged nuclear wastewater into the ocean, endangering all humanity—is that benevolence? Japan invaded Asian countries, massacred their people, and continues to visit war criminals—is that benevolence? Yesterday was a day of remembrance in China. In 1937, Japan killed 300,000 Chinese civilians in Nanjing and still hasn’t apologized for it—is that benevolence?

Pakistan needs change, which should come from the efforts of Pakistanis. Pakistan raised you, you got an education and went to the U.S., and now you point fingers at domestic affairs in Pakistan, as if your status is so high. Are you comfortable in the U.S.? Have you taken U.S. citizenship?

Go quickly find a mirror, look at yourself carefully, and remind yourself to communicate with others as equals. Don’t blindly criticize others; suggestions are more effective than blame. This is what I’m teaching you. If you learn it, there’s no need to say thank you. Reducing one arrogant person in the world is my contribution to it.

 

[hnn]

MLUs are going to be phased out. The options for the PAF that makes the most sense is to upgrade the Block-52s to V standard and do a new buy of 18 Block 72s.

The MLUs will continue to work as bomb trucks and also help out in operations against the Afghan menace. JF-17s will take up the work of the F-7s as they have and eventually by the time the MLUs get to the end of their lives the PAF should have a 5th Gen system ready to take over those squadrons.

PAF should ideally aim for no more than 4 Fighter types or families at most.
The F-16s can do exactly what the Mirages have been - keep the common type with various variants(MLU, V, 72s). The JF-17 can also take that concept with Block-2s,3s and whatever final form PFX will be. That will leave two options on the 5th Gen side with one very focused on air superiority in J-35 and one more of an all round deep strike aircraft in Kaan.

Yes we are thinking along the same lines except for J-10s. We currently operates 1+ squardon strength of each F-16C/D and J-10CE. I think while another squardon of F-16 Block 72 is sensible but so is another squadron of J-10. One of the main reason I'm in favor of more J-10s is that over the next two decades the margin of evolution (both software + hardware) on J-10 is more than on Block 72 (mostly software now).

Over the next two decades, even before 5th Gen becomes more common worldwide there will be a lot of evolution in radars, EW, and weapons system. I'm skeptic about how much of that evolution in the hardware will Block 72 be able to absorb compared to J-10. While this wouldn't make Block 72 obsolete per se but the capability advantage will favor the J-10 more.

Another thing here that I'm considering is, though it's a gamble, the PLAA exercises in recent times very strongly suggest that China may have an operational Networked Fire Control System - one very strong indicator for that capability present in these exercises is the "silent shooter" - so in theory, given Pakistan is already operating Chinese aircraft and ADS, there exists the possibility of dipping our toes in CEC with lessar integration hurdle (dependent on our acquisition of KJ-500 and of course Chinese willingness and approval to share/export the relevant tech).

 

[AeronautIR]

I specifically chose Turkiye, because it's the cheapest out of the recent deals. With countries like Peru and Philippines paying 280m/unit. Turkey already has significant infrastructure and weapons for the F-16 similar to us.

Less than 100m/unit is unprecedented and seems far too optimistic.

Those are even more different cases than Pakistan as both are first time users of F16. The flying away cost of aircraft is less but in a package deal, it is doubled due to additional capabilities, Training, spares etc.

 

[Mav3rick]

Chinese have that and more. I don't know what your information is based on, but I can tell you it's not exactly right. Chinese have given even more "financial services" to Pakistan with easier terms than the Americans. Countless cases come to mind.

Granted the American process is more transparent, but Chinese and Pakistan have been dealing with financing for a very long time. On top of this, Chinese offer native capacity building for many of the programs which is a strategic upside.

I don't know where you are getting your information but the Chinese are not exactly 'generous' when it comes to financial matters. The Americans are in a league of their own and no other country comes close when it is about donations and financial assistance. The US has given more to Pakistan than perhaps all other donors combined, and their donations also cover Military equipment, training and support. On the other hand, Chinese funds have been difficult to come by, contain tough conditions and are never waived or converted to assistance. The Chinese even waited for assurance from the IMF before they released funds on which the IMF program was dependent (Saudis and Emiratis did that too, I guess everyone is tired of us begging year after year; ironically, even though we beg for it, it is almost always loans on which we pay handsome interest rates too).

The only real reason we are dealing with the Chinese and have had to procure Chinese goods is 1) the US will not sell us the weapons that we want and in the quantity that we desire; 2) we simply never had the funds to wet our appetite with US weapons and 3) there are always strings attached to weapons procurement from the US, which is not the case with Chinese weapons.

That the Chinese weapons performed better than any of us non-Force members could have dreamt of is another discussion altogether.

 

[rafale]

MLUs are going to be phased out. The options for the PAF that makes the most sense is to upgrade the Block-52s to V standard and do a new buy of 18 Block 72s.

The MLUs will continue to work as bomb trucks and also help out in operations against the Afghan menace. JF-17s will take up the work of the F-7s as they have and eventually by the time the MLUs get to the end of their lives the PAF should have a 5th Gen system ready to take over those squadrons.

PAF should ideally aim for no more than 4 Fighter types or families at most.
The F-16s can do exactly what the Mirages have been - keep the common type with various variants(MLU, V, 72s). The JF-17 can also take that concept with Block-2s,3s and whatever final form PFX will be. That will leave two options on the 5th Gen side with one very focused on air superiority in J-35 and one more of an all round deep strike aircraft in Kaan.

I think this is a pretty balanced and agreeable analysis.
2 squadrons of F-16s V standard, couple squadrons of J-10CEs and then JF-17 BLKIII, pretty much guarantees that Bindians even with its F4 standard Rafales will not be flying within 200km of the border.........and can only resort to having their ALCMs travel half the distance within their own airspace thereby allowing PAF a lot more reaction time to intercept.

Of course, it is now virtually guaranteed that PAF will get the first true 5th Gen aircraft in South Asia, well before Indians get anything comparable or good.....which will pretty much render F5 Rafales or Super Sukhoi duds.

 

[Yasser76]

4 years to approve a simple maintenance and upgrade contract, but people still think new builds are possible….

That was under Biden, we are under Trump, so attitude is now very different towards Pakistan and India

 

[TallGuy]

That was under Biden, we are under Trump, so attitude is now very different towards Pakistan and India

Its just to keep the defense relationship alive - all principal weapons in future and now will be of Chinese origin.

Pakistan just keeping the show on!

 

[Yasser76]

Its just to keep the defense relationship alive - all principal weapons in future and now will be of Chinese origin.

Pakistan just keeping the show on!

Agreed, this deal was the very minimum we needed to keep the current fleet working properly

 

[Vkdindian1]

Al Jazeera is reporting that this deal is an aid package and not a sale. Why would US give aid to Pakistan?

My understanding is that it is a deal for which Pakistan would pay for all the items.

Is Trump’s $686m F-16 upgrade for Pakistan a message to India?

The US has authorised the sale of advanced technology and support for Pakistan's F-16 jets.

www.aljazeera.com

The upgrade package itself is a significant one and F-16 would now remain in play for much longer. Al Jazeera also claims that this deal is to put pressure on India.