PAF Future Acquisition Plans

[GriffinsRule]

GOod luck with chinese jet

Live up to your username and I will be glad to ban you from threads

 

[Trailer23]

GOod luck with chinese jet

Cute.

Q. How long did it take you clowns to develop your eh...state-of the-art LCA Tejas, huh?!!

GOod Luck with your AMCA ...

I suppose building diecast models for Air Shows will appear a whole lot easier than building the real thing - and getting it to eventually fly.

If this projects follows in the footsteps of the LCA Tejas, I have no doubt that the youngest member on this Forum will be long dead before that is actually achieved.

@Windjammer

 

[Pioneer]

GOod luck with chinese jet

why?

Are you worried that Chinese jet cannot fly over Mount Everest? Don't worry.

 

[KingQamaR]

The J-31 is a dual engine aircraft, so it's closer to the F-22 raptor, the F-35 is a single engine aircraft. The J-31 actually looks almost identical to the F-22 raptor, can china canot built a powerful engine like from the f35. Just an observation by me I hope I’m wrong on this and get corrected by someone.

 

[alphapak]

The J-31 is a dual engine aircraft, so it's closer to the F-22 raptor, the F-35 is a single engine aircraft. The J-31 actually looks almost identical to the F-22 raptor, can china canot built a powerful engine like from the f35. Just an observation by me I hope I’m wrong on this and get corrected by someone.

Will the PAF fly 2 twin engine fighter jets (J31 and KAAN) or will they go for
single engine KAAN?

 

[studsmart]

Will the PAF fly 2 twin engine fighter jets (J31 and KAAN) or will they go for
single engine KAAN?

Not sure why not

 

[Harbyharb]

The J-31 is a dual engine aircraft, so it's closer to the F-22 raptor, the F-35 is a single engine aircraft. The J-31 actually looks almost identical to the F-22 raptor, can china canot built a powerful engine like from the f35. Just an observation by me I hope I’m wrong on this and get corrected by someone.

The short answer is, yes, the J-31/35 supposedly will get an engine that will allow it to reach the set flight performance criteria, the WS-19, giving the jet similar thrust to weight ratio, transonic-supersonic performance and supercruise ability.

The long answer is, maximum thrust alone is actually a very flawed way of evaluating how an engine would perform. The F-35's F135 engine actually have an identical gas generator as F-22's F119, aka core compressor-combustor-turbine section. But this doesn't mean F-35 only have half the thrust that F-22 does. How does that happen?

One of the key ways that F119 and F135 differs is the "Bypass ratio". It's difficult to explain in short texts, but they key takeaway is this, you can either give the engine greater maximum thrust, but as altitude and velocity increases the engine starts to lose thrust earlier, making the aircraft better at subsonic ranges, or you can have the engine more geared toward high alt high speed, even though it would have less raw thrust.

The F-35 is built as a supplement strike fighter (hence Joint Strike Fighter JSF), using stealth and powerful anti-surface weaponry capacity to exploit the aerial dominance established by F-22, usually limited to lower altitude and subsonic ranges performing air support or air patrols; while J-31/35 leans more toward the F-22 as a traditional air superiority fighter.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Real issue is to understand which chinese aircraft meets Paf's need and not what is available to the Paf or not.

The J-20 is a different kind of aircraft with a different utility that is a bit farther away from that of the J-31 that meets the needs of the Paf---.

If the J-20 was the aircraft that the Paf had wanted---then that is what we would see in Paf's colors---.

Hi,

Have any of you have considered some of the following---!!!!

Something very important to understand is that Rafales capabilities are somewhat know---but those of the JF17 BLK 3 are up in the air and same with the J-10C's as well.

Most of us can only speculate on the potency of the systems in these 2 aircraft or what the Paf wants us to know---.

And now to add the J-31 to the group---Paf has created a massive concern in the opponents camp---. They are behind in the upgrades of 100's of their aircraft---.

Upgrades mean---integration---training training training---. Older pilots to be re-trained to newer equipment---older tech need to be re-trained on newer equipment---and that is all time consuming.

I think that the opponents air force is in a quandry---. They will be playing catchup in the next 15-20 years---.

@Quwa

 

[Quwa]

Hi,

Have any of you have considered some of the following---!!!!

Something very important to understand is that Rafales capabilities are somewhat know---but those of the JF17 BLK 3 are up in the air and same with the J-10C's as well.

Most of us can only speculate on the potency of the systems in these 2 aircraft or what the Paf wants us to know---.

And now to add the J-31 to the group---Paf has created a massive concern in the opponents camp---. They are behind in the upgrades of 100's of their aircraft---.

Upgrades mean---integration---training training training---. Older pilots to be re-trained to newer equipment---older tech need to be re-trained on newer equipment---and that is all time consuming.

I think that the opponents air force is in a quandry---. They will be playing catchup in the next 15-20 years---.

@Quwa

I remember the days when all we saw of the J-20 and J-31 were vague drawings and sketches. It was so abstract back then as America was the only country with stealth aircraft. Imaging anyone else with that tech - much less China - was at best a distant possibility for some, and a joke for most.

Now, here we are... We're in a world where the reality of China being an industrial superpower (with R&D expertise, funding, and scale) is as true as the water in the sea. With a complete supplier at its doorstep, Pakistan is, understandably, leveraging them...

 

[MastanKhan]

I remember the days when all we saw of the J-20 and J-31 were vague drawings and sketches. It was so abstract back then as America was the only country with stealth aircraft. Imaging anyone else with that tech - much less China - was at best a distant possibility for some, and a joke for most.

Now, here we are... We're in a world where the reality of China being an industrial superpower (with R&D expertise, funding, and scale) is as true as the water in the sea. With a complete supplier at its doorstep, Pakistan is, understandably, leveraging them...

Hi,

I want your input on upgrade / transition to aesa---integration & re-training pilots on aesa for the opponents force---.

 

[Quwa]

Hi,

I want your input on upgrade / transition to aesa---integration & re-training pilots on aesa for the opponents force---.

tbh...it's out of my area of knowledge...I can only guess...

I guess that, for the pilot, using an AESA radar isn't fundamentally any different than a pulse-Doppler one. Yes, they have more range, more simultaneous targeting, and better resilience to ECM.

However, these are all performance features that make the radar (for the end-user or pilot) better, but there's no change in how you use the radar, at least in air-to-air.

I suppose some new features are available, like 'chirping' (using different beam-groupings of TRMs for different tasks at the same time). That's one new thing the operator has to get used to, may be useful when trying to identify both air and surface-based targets, especially at sea.

The bigger change is at a higher level, i.e., when you're integrating those AESA radars into your wider sensor stack. Each fighter radar is a lot more powerful now. In this case, you may want to lean harder into a network, e.g., keeping one fighter's radar active (and feeding its sensor feed to other fighters via data-link), while the other fighters just keep passive sensors on, like IRST.

I think this is likely the biggest change, but it may require investing in new passive sensors (like IRST) to fully leverage. Perhaps the J-10CEs are now helping the PAF understand IRST better and, in turn, push them to add it to the JF-17s. I

 

[Oscar]

tbh...it's out of my area of knowledge...I can only guess...

I guess that, for the pilot, using an AESA radar isn't fundamentally any different than a pulse-Doppler one. Yes, they have more range, more simultaneous targeting, and better resilience to ECM.

However, these are all performance features that make the radar (for the end-user or pilot) better, but there's no change in how you use the radar, at least in air-to-air.

I suppose some new features are available, like 'chirping' (using different beam-groupings of TRMs for different tasks at the same time). That's one new thing the operator has to get used to, may be useful when trying to identify both air and surface-based targets, especially at sea.

The bigger change is at a higher level, i.e., when you're integrating those AESA radars into your wider sensor stack. Each fighter radar is a lot more powerful now. In this case, you may want to lean harder into a network, e.g., keeping one fighter's radar active (and feeding its sensor feed to other fighters via data-link), while the other fighters just keep passive sensors on, like IRST.

I think this is likely the biggest change, but it may require investing in new passive sensors (like IRST) to fully leverage. Perhaps the J-10CEs are now helping the PAF understand IRST better and, in turn, push them to add it to the JF-17s. I

Its not the radar - although there is some very different ways to use AESAs in terms of SA building and how you can break up close knit formations.

They real key is how to use AESA(already in J-10C and Blk3) to build a larger picture faster. Use it to create shooters and other in LPI. Then think of AESA vis a vis signature management with the J-31.
The airspace which took 4 F-16s to cover can now be done by 2 J-10s.

 

[CSAW]

PAKISTAN AIR FORCE ANNOUNCES PLANS TO PROCURE J-31 STEALTH FIGHTERS​

QUWA 11 JAN 2024​

On 03 January 2024, the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) Chief of Air Staff (CAS), Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, announced that the PAF will be acquiring the J-31/FC-31 stealth fighter.

In an official press release, the PAF stated, “The foundation for acquiring the J-31 stealth fighter aircraft has already been laid, which is all set to become part of the PAF’s fleet in the near future.”

The CAS announced the PAF’s plans to procure the Chinese next-generation fighter aircraft (NGFA) during a recent ceremony celebrating the inducting of several systems in the PAF fleet, such as the J-10CE Dragon multirole fighter, ex-Belgian C-130H Hercules airlifters, and other auxiliary aircraft.

Currently, the PAF has not revealed its timeline or other specific procurement details. However, the PAF’s announcement marks its first official direction for an NGFA since Project AZM, an in-house program aimed at developing an original NGFA for the PAF.

[Abdurrahman Şeref Can and Uğur Zengin from Turkey's SSB visited Pakistan's NASTP [




Project AZM’s in-house NGFA program has likely been shelved, thus prompting the PAF leadership to look towards preexisting overseas programs for solutions. In August 2023, the Turkish government indicated that Pakistan was engaging it to join the TF-X KAAN program. It is unclear how the PAF’s announcement to induct the J-31 will impact its apparent interest in the Turkish KAAN.

Background: Shenyang J-31​

Developed by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC), the J-31 is a twin-engine stealth fighter originally built and promoted for export. Following the demonstrator’s maiden test flight in 2012, the J-31 underwent numerous design changes, resulting in a new prototype flying in 2016. This new version was also equipped with indigenous WS-13 turbofans, replacing the Klimov RD-93s in the first prototype.

AVIC marketed the J-31 as a multirole combat aircraft. Its use of angular shapes in the airframe, internal weapons bay, and certain materials showed a focus on stealth/low observability (LO) on radar. It offered an internal and external payload capacity of 2,000 kg and 6,000 kg, respectively, a top speed of Mach 1.8, and a combat radius of 1,200 km. It has a reported maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 25,000 kg.

In terms of subsystems, the J-31 would hose an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, helmet-mounted display and sight (HMD/S) system, in-flight refueling (IFR) probe, integrated electronic counter-measures (ECM) suite, infrared search and track (IRST), and electro-optical targeting system (EOTS).



The J-31’s munitions suite will comprise of long-range air-to-air missiles (LRAAM) like the PL-15E and SD-10, the PL-10E high off-boresight (HOBS) AAM, FT-series precision-guided bombs (PGB), and, eventually, compact air-launched cruise missiles (ALCM) and loitering munitions.

AVIC marketed the J-31 as a versatile solution, one with credible stealth characteristics paired with useful weapons carrying capacity and reach. The stealth element aside, the size and capability of the J-31 still made it a viable solution for countries that could not access a Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, or F/A-18E/F-type medium-to-heavyweight fighter solution.

However, the J-31 program had an unclear future, especially since AVIC promoted it as a solely export solution. However, in 2018, the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) adopted the platform the basis of its next-generation carrier fighter, designated J-35. The first prototype of the J-35 broke cover in 2021 and exhibited additional design changes, especially in its front fuselage and canopy. The final production version of the J-35 is also expected to house new turbofan engines.

The PAF’s announcement confirms that China is still making the J-31 readily available for export, despite it being adopted by the PLAN as the J-35. However, while related, the J-35 and J-31 are different projects – the former is undergoing development, while the latter’s development is mostly complete. It is unclear to what extent, if at all, work from the J-35 will transfer over to the J-31, especially when the bulk of the J-35’s work is being done to meet the PLAN’s requirements.

Currently, Quwa believes that the ‘J-31’ is the same fighter AVIC revealed in 2016, not the revised J-35 SAC is now developing for the PLAN. In 2015, AVIC said that if it received an order, SAC could fly the production-ready model in 2019, reach initial operating capability by 2022, and meet full operating capability (FOC) by 2025. Thus, with a backer, AVIC projected a 10-year runway for bringing the J-31 from demonstrator to a production-ready, serviceable fighter. If one assumes that PLAN is the primary backer of the project (i.e., both J-31 and J-35) since 2018, then the J-31 and J-35 should both be at FOC status by 2028. And, if the PAF is becoming a co-backer of the program, then the FOC date of 2028 should be more assured.

Why is Pakistan Procuring the J-31?​

On the surface, one could presume that the PAF found a feasible solution in the J-31 for its NGFA needs. It would not have access to a better fighter in terms of cost, availability, and capability in one package. Likewise, the J-31 is also free of regulatory pressure from the United States or Europe. Finally, thanks to the J-10CE and JF-17C programs, the PAF will already have an existing pool of compatible munitions.

However, there is more to the J-31 than its NGFA label and its stealth capabilities. For example, the J-31 would offer a greater payload and range than any of the PAF’s current fighters, therefore improving the PAF’s reach and strike capabilities. The latter would also draw on a built-in electro-optical system via the EOTS, giving the J-31 greater versatility in the ground attack mission than any PAF asset today.

The first question about the PAF’s intentions is the timing. While the PAF CAS stated that the J-31 will join the PAF fleet in the “near future,” the aircraft is still under development. Based on AVIC’s estimates about the time it would take to move the J-31 from demonstrator to production-ready fighter, Pakistan could receive its first batch of J-31s from 2028 to 2030…"

https://twitter.com/x/status/1746384593593549190

 

[KingQamaR]

The short answer is, yes, the J-31/35 supposedly will get an engine that will allow it to reach the set flight performance criteria, the WS-19, giving the jet similar thrust to weight ratio, transonic-supersonic performance and supercruise ability.

The long answer is, maximum thrust alone is actually a very flawed way of evaluating how an engine would perform. The F-35's F135 engine actually have an identical gas generator as F-22's F119, aka core compressor-combustor-turbine section. But this doesn't mean F-35 only have half the thrust that F-22 does. How does that happen?

One of the key ways that F119 and F135 differs is the "Bypass ratio". It's difficult to explain in short texts, but they key takeaway is this, you can either give the engine greater maximum thrust, but as altitude and velocity increases the engine starts to lose thrust earlier, making the aircraft better at subsonic ranges, or you can have the engine more geared toward high alt high speed, even though it would have less raw thrust.

The F-35 is built as a supplement strike fighter (hence Joint Strike Fighter JSF), using stealth and powerful anti-surface weaponry capacity to exploit the aerial dominance established by F-22, usually limited to lower altitude and subsonic ranges performing air support or air patrols; while J-31/35 leans more toward the F-22 as a traditional air superiority fighter.

From what I have read F35 It's designed as a multi role fighter jet with stealth capability big difference from f-22 that is an air superiority stealth fighter.
It all comes down to design decisions to creating a efficient, lower maintenance, lower operating cost, lower service life cost air plane, than the f-22. F-35 is going to be the main stay of the military fighter jet and mass produced it's totally not realistic to do that with the same capability as the f-22, cost will and did not allow it.

Importantly F-35 has one engine because no successful STOVL fighter has ever had
two?

Will the PAF fly 2 twin engine fighter jets (J31 and KAAN) or will they go for
single engine KAAN?

With on going sanction I am curios how TAI will solve the solve this sourcing issue of the engines problem. These KAAN engines are OLD- they are from 4th generation aircraft from 1980s (!!!) in a few years Turkey domestic modern engine will be integrated

So according to reports looks like we Pakistani's be going Chinese 5h Gen . Unproven platform!

 

[Hiroshi9x]

I thought we were going down the turkey route?

It appears to me that PAF is planning on expanding its arsenal. To be in a position to carry out both offensive and defensive missions. But there are two versions of the FC-31: j-31, made for ground operations and the J-35, made for the navy