PAF Future Acquisition Plans

[Oscar]

No, but the potential fallout can.

Sure, Pakistan might not respond to Iran with an attack, but from this point on, it may join (with others) in exerting pressure on Iran. Discussions can be had with the US (and others) on what that pressure may look like and, in turn, what Pakistan needs to properly apply it.

For GHQ, Iran has upgraded itself from a shaky neighbor or frenemy to an enemy. We have now gone from weighing potential gas deals and investments with Iran to posting a proper military presence on our southwestern front. It's not trivial, and that can affect US interests.

Yes, the US doesn't need an Iran-Pakistan war on its plate (when it's actively trying to diffuse conflicts in the Middle East). However, Pakistan playing a more proactive role in curbing Iran across other domains may be welcomed, and that can open up a few ITAR permits or third-party transfers.


Honestly, even after 9/11, folks didn't see the US releasing AIM-120C5s to the PAF, or JDAMs, or even Block-52+. The most folks were expecting in 2002/2003 were used F-16A/Bs. Now, I'm NOT saying the PAF would get the latest F-16 variant, but I do think used airframes are plausible.

Pakistan lost a lot of friends in the right places through its support of Haqqanis otherwise a LOT more could have come. As is common with Pakistan - the Haqqanis were the wrong long game to bet on instead of more potent defense hardware. Having AH-1Zs and 24 more vipers along with stand off systems would have gone a longer way than 4 more angry Taliban in Afghanistan.

 

[Quwa]

Pakistan lost a lot of friends in the right places through its support of Haqqanis otherwise a LOT more could have come. As is common with Pakistan - the Haqqanis were the wrong long game to bet on instead of more potent defense hardware. Having AH-1Zs and 24 more vipers along with stand off systems would have gone a longer way than 4 more angry Taliban in Afghanistan.

I agree, but being the bludgeoner against Iran could be a way to regain ground. Of course, the US doesn't need that right now (pointlessly flare up Middle East), but there's a role to play for long-term isolation and pressure.

 

[hyperman]

but your converstaion level is going down.

Idk what this means. lol

I don't mean to be insulting but your converstaion level is going down. We decided in 2019 when india got the Rafale---which aircraft was readily available---and that was the J10-C.

Before getting the aircraft to pakistan----pilots had to be trained on the J-10C's---the maintenance crew & support staff trained on the aircraft---a service and maintenance level shop setup in pakistan---that is why it took about 2 1/2 to 3 years to bring in the J10's.

Now is that too much to understand for you.

None of this makes any sense. If the wait time is 3 years for a completely different platform with completely different maintenance and logistics, and the wait time for apparently "an equivalent" cheaper fighter is 4 years, why would they pick the a completely different platform?

Your logic does not make sense.

Note: I have not Insulted Pakistan, nor have I insulted either the JF-17 or J-10, both of which are very capable platform in terms of what they were designed for and what their cost value was supposed to yield.

All I did was challenge you rationale, don't take your own interpretation supposed personal slights and somehow extrapolate them to somehow mean that Im somehow against Pakistanis and then accuse me of being whatever. Its some real bizarre BS, You get into an argument with the Indians about their tejas program, where if anyone criticizes the project, they start accusing you of being Pakistani, you start a conversation in the Pakistani threads and any sort of pushback on claims, now suddenly you must be Indian. I get into an argument with the chinese users about something, oh them I must be some good ol boy hater. Get into an argument with the America Stronk good old boys, oh you must be a CCP shill.

Have you considered that perhaps the issue isn't your background but the silly claims being made? This whole nonsense started when someone said that the JF-17 is basically the same as the F-16V or Eurofigher, and all I did was point out no, its not actually and really if you said that in any aviation forum on the internet, it would not be a controversial, b/c its pretty evident that those aircraft are different in capabilities. Case i point, someone asked me about the sensors, I'll give an example the eurofighter Tranche 4 radar system is far superior to the KLJ-JA on the JF-17 here is a writeup thewarzone recently did on the swashplate radar if anyone would like to read(https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...r-finally-gets-advanced-swashplate-aesa-radar)

I don't have an issue with anyone b/c of their background(except Israelis lol), what i have an issue with is people blowing smoke up their own ass, and not expecting someone to point out the obvious.

 

[hyperman]

Is the sensor range of the KLJ-7A too weak for the PL-15E?

...and why would you assume that an AEW&C wouldn't be there to guide the JF-17 when the PAF is the largest operator of the Erieye?

We are comparing apples to oranges, AWACS changes everything, I'm talking about 1 vs 1 comparison of planes. You can have the best missiles, if you can't guide them and you can't detect the enemy, its useless.

The PL-15E doesn't even need to be on a JF-17, it can be on a J-7, if the guidance is being done in a network centric environment, its wouldn't matter who is carrying the load, b/c the AWACS would be guiding the missile using its superior sensors. This is why I left AWACS out of the conversation. Im only comparing aircraft for aircraft.

You brought up the sensors, here is a good read on the capabilities of the new Eurofighter Captor-E ECRS Mk2, https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...r-finally-gets-advanced-swashplate-aesa-radar The KF-7A on the JF-17 to my knowledge from what I've read on Janes and wiki, does not have the extensive Electronic warfare capabilities that the Eurofighter Tranche 4 has, among other thing, there are really only a couple of aircraft that have the capabilities of this radar, namely the AN/APG-81 on the F-35, and the NGAD in development in the US.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Turkish F-35 Jets Await Their Ultimate Fate

Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar has made remarks regarding the status of six F-35A Lightning II fighter jets produced by Lockheed Martin for Turkiye.

www.turkishdefencenews.com

It’s official: US Air Force to buy Turkish F-35s

A $862 million contract modification gives another 14 F-35As to the U.S. Air Force ... including some Turkish jets.

www.defensenews.com

US, Turkey continue talks to settle F-35 dispute

The United States and Turkey held a second round of talks geared at settling outstanding issues related to Ankara's expulsion from the international Lockheed Martin F-35...

www.janes.com

Already in the USAF man. There might even be some source with production serial numbers and where they ended up. Either way, Turkey is not getting them

 

[.44 Magnum Lever Action]

It’s official: US Air Force to buy Turkish F-35s

A $862 million contract modification gives another 14 F-35As to the U.S. Air Force ... including some Turkish jets.

www.defensenews.com

US, Turkey continue talks to settle F-35 dispute

The United States and Turkey held a second round of talks geared at settling outstanding issues related to Ankara's expulsion from the international Lockheed Martin F-35...

www.janes.com

Already in the USAF man. There might even be some source with production serial numbers and where they ended up. Either way, Turkey is not getting them

Turkey will never get them but they did absorb a lot of technical expertise as they were partners for quite a long time in the program before being ousted. Because Turkey was one of the nations that would manufacture and assemble components for the F-35, they also established assembly lines. If you have ever seen a Bayraktar Kizilelma you will know what I'm talking about.

 

[Quwa]

We are comparing apples to oranges, AWACS changes everything, I'm talking about 1 vs 1 comparison of planes. You can have the best missiles, if you can't guide them and you can't detect the enemy, its useless.

The PL-15E doesn't even need to be on a JF-17, it can be on a J-7, if the guidance is being done in a network centric environment, its wouldn't matter who is carrying the load, b/c the AWACS would be guiding the missile using its superior sensors. This is why I left AWACS out of the conversation. Im only comparing aircraft for aircraft.

You brought up the sensors, here is a good read on the capabilities of the new Eurofighter Captor-E ECRS Mk2, https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...r-finally-gets-advanced-swashplate-aesa-radar The KF-7A on the JF-17 to my knowledge from what I've read on Janes and wiki, does not have the extensive Electronic warfare capabilities that the Eurofighter Tranche 4 has, among other thing, there are really only a couple of aircraft that have the capabilities of this radar, namely the AN/APG-81 on the F-35, and the NGAD in development in the US.

I don't care about the Typhoon.

I had asked a simple question: Is the sensor range of the KLJ-7A too weak for the PL-15E?

This is the crux of the issue. If the KLJ-7A has enough range and capacity to support the PL-15E, then the JF-17 with KLJ-7A has a credibly long A2A reach. It becomes a threat to whatever is on the other side, full stop.

Sure, the latest Typhoon spec has a superior sensor suite, fair, but that in itself doesn't negate the threat posed by the JF-17. To discount the JF-17 threat, you need to show me if its sensors (namely, the KLJ-7A) are too weak for its A2A munitions.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

The crux of the problem as I see it, is our obsession with using non state actors to keep small fires lit in our neighborhood. Until the start 2000's we were dabbling inside western China with this policy!! This policy or methodology has not panned out positively for Pakistan on any of the borders. Kashmir....now firmly part of Indian Union. Afghanistan a mess that has backfired royally for us. Proxies inside Iran have not delivered if anything was to be delivered. In-fact now it has put GoP in an awkward position. China...well they put a stout piece of wood up our..... and that was the end of that story.

Deploying proxies and supporting them requires a solid long term objective, steadfastness, strong political and public support for the cause, economic and military muscle, and alignment with big power goals in that particular area of operations. Now even with all of this, proxies tend to go their own way when they start exerting influence in their are of operations. US has been at the receiving end of it many a times, and Pakistan too.

Pakistan has none of the above except in one instance, the first Afghan adventure. We should learn from our mistakes and move away from this strategy, it does not work and has not worked for us without the support of the lone superpower. Even China treads with care on this strategy given the myriad complexities in its operations. The nine sisters is a case in point on north east India.

It is high time that we hunker down and look inwards as a nation and do a self check on where we have gone wrong as a nation and what has destroyed our social fabric. Look towards the economy. Don't seek foreign investment but look towards creating and eco system that supports local investment in manufacturing, agri, power distribution and energy and services sectors. There is tons of money that Pakistanis can deploy which they have invested overseas if they feel that its worth their effort and their investments are safeguarded. The trust that was destroyed in the early 70's needs to be restored. This is where entities like SIFC should concentrate. Short term patchwork is not going to work now.

And we certainly need to desist from this proxy game. Hamaray bus ki baat nahee rahee ab ye khel.!!! We have suffered and are suffering.

I still remember when in 2001 one of my acquaintances who used to work for the state department mentioned that when he spoke to a veteran diplomat who had been stationed in New Delhi for a while said that Pakistan should resolve its issues with India on Kashmir soon otherwise India is fast approaching a position in the world pecking order where Pakistan would be threatened with surrendering its side of Kashmir down to Mari!!!

It is high time we took our heads out of our behinds and smell the air.... my apologies for the harsh words and tone.


My 2C worth

 

[Ray Kalm]

https://x.com/syed_maligohar/status/1747820317198713317?s=46

 

[Oscar]

The crux of the problem as I see it, is our obsession with using non state actors to keep small fires lit in our neighborhood. Until the start 2000's we were dabbling inside western China with this policy!! This policy or methodology has not panned out positively for Pakistan on any of the borders. Kashmir....now firmly part of Indian Union. Afghanistan a mess that has backfired royally for us. Proxies inside Iran have not delivered if anything was to be delivered. In-fact now it has put GoP in an awkward position. China...well they put a stout piece of wood up our..... and that was the end of that story.

Deploying proxies and supporting them requires a solid long term objective, steadfastness, strong political and public support for the cause, economic and military muscle, and alignment with big power goals in that particular area of operations. Now even with all of this, proxies tend to go their own way when they start exerting influence in their are of operations. US has been at the receiving end of it many a times, and Pakistan too.

Pakistan has none of the above except in one instance, the first Afghan adventure. We should learn from our mistakes and move away from this strategy, it does not work and has not worked for us without the support of the lone superpower. Even China treads with care on this strategy given the myriad complexities in its operations. The nine sisters is a case in point on north east India.

It is high time that we hunker down and look inwards as a nation and do a self check on where we have gone wrong as a nation and what has destroyed our social fabric. Look towards the economy. Don't seek foreign investment but look towards creating and eco system that supports local investment in manufacturing, agri, power distribution and energy and services sectors. There is tons of money that Pakistanis can deploy which they have invested overseas if they feel that its worth their effort and their investments are safeguarded. The trust that was destroyed in the early 70's needs to be restored. This is where entities like SIFC should concentrate. Short term patchwork is not going to work now.

And we certainly need to desist from this proxy game. Hamaray bus ki baat nahee rahee ab ye khel.!!! We have suffered and are suffering.

I still remember when in 2001 one of my acquaintances who used to work for the state department mentioned that when he spoke to a veteran diplomat who had been stationed in New Delhi for while said that Pakistan should resolve its issues with India on Kashmir soon otherwise India is fast approaching a position in the world pecking order where Pakistan would be threatened with surrendering its side of Kashmir down to Mari!!!

It is high we took our heads out of our behinds and smell the air.... my apologies for the harsh words and tone.


My 2C worth

Unfortunately there is an issue of dusty playbooks from which there is no want to come out of the box and its a cyclic process within institutions.

The proxy element is at times so loosely considered that it puts doubts on the effectiveness of command and control during the onset of conflict to the point where one can be forgiven to hyperbole on whether nuclear weapons would even launch if it ever comes to that.

Moles - to moles - interests to interests and political motives at every level at outpace the norms in the developing world - save the developed one.

There is no national fabric to speak of anymore - just tatters and bubbles of alternate realities built upon layers of polarization supercharged by insecurities from the community to the individual psyche.

Even this thread is testament to it -

 

[Harbyharb]

I don't care about the Typhoon.

I had asked a simple question: Is the sensor range of the KLJ-7A too weak for the PL-15E?

This is the crux of the issue. If the KLJ-7A has enough range and capacity to support the PL-15E, then the JF-17 with KLJ-7A has a credibly long A2A reach. It becomes a threat to whatever is on the other side, full stop.

Sure, the latest Typhoon spec has a superior sensor suite, fair, but that in itself doesn't negate the threat posed by the JF-17. To discount the JF-17 threat, you need to show me if its sensors (namely, the KLJ-7A) are too weak for its A2A munitions.

Which KLJ-7A?

KLJ-7A is more marketed as an export engineering solution, a system with a specific architecture and structure that can vary in scale rather than a self contained product, for example, all of the following are technically "KLJ-7As" with vastly different aperture size, function, feature, and detection range.

Similar to their American Counterparts:

The specific model used by JF-17 blk 3 is the smallest and lightest variant in the KLJ-7A series, it has over 1000 T&R units, and is generally believed to be able to detect typical fighter targets beyond 170km. This compared to PL-15E's claimed Rmax at 145km, with typical high probability of kill range assumed between 60-80km, the radar is certainly powerful enough.

 

[White Privilege]

I lost count how many times Cheif was mentioned as if he is paying for goodies from his own pocket! These are state assets, paid by tax payer money, not for someone's PR stunt. Project solely the fire power of Pakistan, not some individual. And that 22 grade officer at the end! WHYYYY PAF WHYYY??

There are people working outside Pakistan number of years for the induction of 5th gen fighter, way before incumbent time, why is he trying to take credit as if he started it? Whoever is the chief when first bird enter Pakistani airspace, will take the glory, that is how it works.

I would like our foes to assume our air chief is an incompetent, greedy fool.....

 

[SaadH]

The crux of the problem as I see it, is our obsession with using non state actors to keep small fires lit in our neighborhood. Until the start 2000's we were dabbling inside western China with this policy!! This policy or methodology has not panned out positively for Pakistan on any of the borders. Kashmir....now firmly part of Indian Union. Afghanistan a mess that has backfired royally for us. Proxies inside Iran have not delivered if anything was to be delivered. In-fact now it has put GoP in an awkward position. China...well they put a stout piece of wood up our..... and that was the end of that story.

Deploying proxies and supporting them requires a solid long term objective, steadfastness, strong political and public support for the cause, economic and military muscle, and alignment with big power goals in that particular area of operations. Now even with all of this, proxies tend to go their own way when they start exerting influence in their are of operations. US has been at the receiving end of it many a times, and Pakistan too.

Pakistan has none of the above except in one instance, the first Afghan adventure. We should learn from our mistakes and move away from this strategy, it does not work and has not worked for us without the support of the lone superpower. Even China treads with care on this strategy given the myriad complexities in its operations. The nine sisters is a case in point on north east India.

It is high time that we hunker down and look inwards as a nation and do a self check on where we have gone wrong as a nation and what has destroyed our social fabric. Look towards the economy. Don't seek foreign investment but look towards creating and eco system that supports local investment in manufacturing, agri, power distribution and energy and services sectors. There is tons of money that Pakistanis can deploy which they have invested overseas if they feel that its worth their effort and their investments are safeguarded. The trust that was destroyed in the early 70's needs to be restored. This is where entities like SIFC should concentrate. Short term patchwork is not going to work now.

And we certainly need to desist from this proxy game. Hamaray bus ki baat nahee rahee ab ye khel.!!! We have suffered and are suffering.

I still remember when in 2001 one of my acquaintances who used to work for the state department mentioned that when he spoke to a veteran diplomat who had been stationed in New Delhi for while said that Pakistan should resolve its issues with India on Kashmir soon otherwise India is fast approaching a position in the world pecking order where Pakistan would be threatened with surrendering its side of Kashmir down to Mari!!!

It is high we took our heads out of our behinds and smell the air.... my apologies for the harsh words and tone.


My 2C worth

It was absolutely the right strategy until establishment under Busharraf's direction did a 180 degree about face and started pounding thier own proxies so the little johnnie generals, billy busharraf et al sitting in Boston or elder brother in Texas wouldn't face any heat.

This idiotic strategic retreat and capitulation would be akin to Iran aiding amerians and israelis in pounding Houthis and Hizbollah respectively.

 

[Reichmarshal]

It’s official: US Air Force to buy Turkish F-35s

A $862 million contract modification gives another 14 F-35As to the U.S. Air Force ... including some Turkish jets.

www.defensenews.com

US, Turkey continue talks to settle F-35 dispute

The United States and Turkey held a second round of talks geared at settling outstanding issues related to Ankara's expulsion from the international Lockheed Martin F-35...

www.janes.com

Already in the USAF man. There might even be some source with production serial numbers and where they ended up. Either way, Turkey is not getting them

Well never say never.....Turkey is the only country in nato with real power, while the rest have an aging population......with things going south in Ukraine for nato....u will see a more n more bligerent russia.
All in all em europeans can't alienate turkey....n they all know it

 

[arjunk]

the responsible institution(isn’t always the military)

IB jindabad