PAF Future Acquisition Plans

[arjunk]

Getting anymore equipment form thr US now it a fantasy.

Getting it is not an issue, buying at a discounted price is

If you gave PAF a budget of 10 billion dollars you bet they would spend it all on F-16 Indus Vipers

 

[Yasser76]

Well, one side effect of recent events is that is may make US Congress and the administration more amenable to get a F-16V package along with more Vipers approved. Anything Anti-Iran goes down very well on The Hill...

 

[Corax]

Getting it is not an issue, buying at a discounted price is

If you gave PAF a budget of 10 billion dollars you bet they would spend it all on F-16 Indus Vipers

If that was the case, the T-129s wouldn't have been blocked. It's clear the US is less keen to supply Pakistan with anything significant. A few second hand ex-Belgian Hercs and other minor stuff is fine though for the US.

 

[RescueRanger]

Unfortunately - the conditions that would open up additional capabilities for the F-16 are offset by the overwhelming compulsion to focus on China. The US was trying its best to disengage from the Middle East conflicts prior to the Gaza war.

That is still a goal for US foreign policy and with elections around the corner the democrats are relying on pro-India votes and stances(which includes the Israeli lobby) to secure a win.

What is indeed surprising is that the intelligence services either missed this strike entirely through not calculating Tehran’s desperation to lash out or their assets in country are unfocused/degraded or a combination of both.

BUT, taking the trends of alerts and how they are missed up the chain - it is EQUALLY likely that intel was surfaced but dismissed up the chain of command or the responsible institution(isn’t always the military) like so many terror attack warnings are in Pakistan anyway. @RescueRanger

It’s becoming a trend now. Don’t you think so?

 

[hyperman]

I had asked a simple question: Is the sensor range of the KLJ-7A too weak for the PL-15E?

And I responded, the PL-15E cannot be used to its full capacity on a JF-17, its one thing for the missile to have the range, its another for the sensor to pick up, track and do target management to guide the missile there. I had mentioned this before, with AWACs removed from the picture, in a comparison of the eurofighter and the JF-17. Lets say there is a scenario like that, the eurofighter will detect the JF-17 earlier than the JF-17 will detect it, it will fire a meteor missle, and then bail. The only thing at that point the JF-17 would detect is the missile coming right at it. Without AWACS in that scenario in most engagements, the kill goes to the eurofighter. There is also the issue of electronic warfare that the Eurofighter can carry out, that I haven't factored in.

 

[Quwa]

And I responded, the PL-15E cannot be used to its full capacity on a JF-17, its one thing for the missile to have the range, its another for the sensor to pick up, track and do target management to guide the missile there.

KLJ-7A range for a 5m2 target: >150 km
PL-15E range: 145 km

I had mentioned this before, with AWACs removed from the picture, in a comparison of the eurofighter and the JF-17. Lets say there is a scenario like that, the eurofighter will detect the JF-17 earlier than the JF-17 will detect it, it will fire a meteor missle, and then bail. The only thing at that point the JF-17 would detect is the missile coming right at it. Without AWACS in that scenario in most engagements, the kill goes to the eurofighter. There is also the issue of electronic warfare that the Eurofighter can carry out, that I haven't factored in.

Practically, the JF-17 isn't going to fight the Typhoon. Rather, the PAF will position the JF-17C to take on threats it can manage, such as the MiG-29, Mirage 2000, and Su-30.

I'm not saying that the JF-17C is better than any of them, but rather, the question we always want to address is: can the JF-17C be a credible threat? We've ascertained that its AESA radar can support its primary AAM and, potentially, a larger RCS aircraft (like Su-30) could show up earlier on the KLJ-7A than a smaller one (like Rafale or Tejas).

BTW, I'll be consistent with my logic here. Just as the JF-17C can pose a threat to the Flanker, the Tejas can easily pose as much (if not more) of a threat to the JF-17C. This is the big reason why the PAF will not use the JF-17C as the centerpiece of any offensive air op inside India (rather, it'll defer to NGFA and stealthy UCAVs when those are available).

 

[Oscar]

It’s becoming a trend now. Don’t you think so?

As the nation so is the state - leadership impacts trickle top down. And the people’s state reflects on who they get as a leader.

 

[hyperman]

KLJ-7A range for a 5m2 target: >150 km
PL-15E range: 145 km

Practically, the JF-17 isn't going to fight the Typhoon. Rather, the PAF will position the JF-17C to take on threats it can manage, such as the MiG-29, Mirage 2000, and Su-30.

I'm not saying that the JF-17C is better than any of them, but rather, the question we always want to address is: can the JF-17C be a credible threat? We've ascertained that its AESA radar can support its primary AAM and, potentially, a larger RCS aircraft (like Su-30) could show up earlier on the KLJ-7A than a smaller one (like Rafale or Tejas).

BTW, I'll be consistent with my logic here. Just as the JF-17C can pose a threat to the Flanker, the Tejas can easily pose as much (if not more) of a threat to the JF-17C. This is the big reason why the PAF will not use the JF-17C as the centerpiece of any offensive air op inside India (rather, it'll defer to NGFA and stealthy UCAVs when those are available).

Of Course it can be a credible threat, did I ever say the JF-17 was useless or something? though it should be noted, detection range and tracking range are very different. You can detect something is out there, but to lock on and fire a missile and guide it there are two different things. For example, there are many radars that can detect the F-35, but to be able to do it clearly enough to where you can track and lock onto it and send a missile is another matter. Then you add on the other complexities of air warfare with EW and other stuff.

Listen this whole BS started when that guy made the claim that the JF-17 is equivalent to the Eurofighter and F-16V, now we seem to be having a very different conversation. If you are not contesting that they are equivalent, then I have no interest in this conversation, b/c the only reason I started arguing is b/c that guy was bloing smoke up his own ass about JF-17s being the equivalent of a Eurofighter and how Pakistani engineers this and that, can create something for $25M that it takes the Western powers $100M to create, exchange rate, purchasing power yada yada yada. and then he started accusing me of being some hindutwa guy hating on Pakistan, which I didn't do. The only issue I have is with people who like to blow smoke up their own ass, whether they are Indians bragging about Tejas, or Pakistanis, Chinese, and even other americans who discredit china in certain aspects.

 

[Fatman17]

 

[Cesur]

The Indians had no intention of buying F35 from.usa
Their plans are where to developed Amca it's own fifth gen fighters but this will not happen until.2040
The Russian Pak fa isx deemed not true fifth gen and at best rafale level.fighters...

Pakistan has thrown a spanner in the works with a real threat of Paf acquiring 20 or even 40 J35 by 2030....

The Indians will need a solution they cannot await until Amca is ready by 2040

This means imo three options
F35 with all sorts of conditions attached by USA ok no guarantee of more USA purchases proper tied to hip ... something India will not wish

Joint purchase of more rafale F5 purchase in larger no's with loyal
wingman drones from France as interim solution with help from France for quicker developments of Amca


Finally going back to RUSSIA TO work on a new much improved Su57 with a lot more Indian input
To enter service in decade or so from now ...
The current Su57 is just not good enough

The more long term solution outside of F35 is the french and British fifth gen programmes but these are entering same time as Amca IE post 2040

One very outside option might be the korean next gen fighters too

I think India has one and only option. Purchasing the Korean KF-21 although it's not a true 5th gen aircraft as of yet but will certainly become one in the near future.

 

[MasterChief]

We are comparing apples to oranges, AWACS changes everything, I'm talking about 1 vs 1 comparison of planes. You can have the best missiles, if you can't guide them and you can't detect the enemy, its useless.

The PL-15E doesn't even need to be on a JF-17, it can be on a J-7, if the guidance is being done in a network centric environment, its wouldn't matter who is carrying the load, b/c the AWACS would be guiding the missile using its superior sensors. This is why I left AWACS out of the conversation. Im only comparing aircraft for aircraft.

You brought up the sensors, here is a good read on the capabilities of the new Eurofighter Captor-E ECRS Mk2, https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...r-finally-gets-advanced-swashplate-aesa-radar The KF-7A on the JF-17 to my knowledge from what I've read on Janes and wiki, does not have the extensive Electronic warfare capabilities that the Eurofighter Tranche 4 has, among other thing, there are really only a couple of aircraft that have the capabilities of this radar, namely the AN/APG-81 on the F-35, and the NGAD in development in the US.

I want what you are smoking.

 

[Awwad]

Its not in the same class as those fighters. Its a decent buy for Pakistan to replace J-7s and very capable, but not in terms of specs and capabilities. J-10C you can argue, but the JF-17 is limited compared to those fighters.

In a technical discussion, everything is time bound. You have to name the generation, dates or year or block number. No one can make a general statement like this.

There is a flaw in the argument when people say that JF-17 is to replace J-7s and Mirages. I explain with an analogy:

F-16 was built in mid 1970s, If today I make a sweeping statement that F-16s is a 1970s aircraft, it was meant to do just dogfight and its no good in 21st century. That will be a truthful statement if F-16s were only produced in 1970s and there were no block by block evolution of the aircraft. I can never compare F-16 block 72 with F-16 of 1970s. F-16 block 72 looks same, it has even the same name, but its entirely different from the inside, its a different beast, it has whole lot of different capabilities. F-16 being produced today in 2024 are not being produced to replace Tomcats or to do WVR combat. They are of today's standards.

Similarly, if JF-17 was meant to replace the J-7s / Mirages or other third gen aircrafts than Why on earth they bothered to put lot of time & effort in producing block III ? They should have kept producing block-1. The block III if its produced in 2020s is of the standards & technology of this decade. It's different plane, its goals are aligned with its capabilities which were unheard of when first JF-17s were being developed. Capabilities like HOBS, EW suites, AESA, different weapon systems etc. Those were never in the mind when first JF-17 block was rolled out. So aircraft is just not a particular kind of airframes. Its a whole project that goes through evolution over various decades. Only thing that sticks to it is its weight-class. If its a light-weight aircraft than the advantages & dis-advantages of that particular weight class will more of less stick to it over the decades.

 

[Oscar]

Its not in the same class as those fighters. Its a decent buy for Pakistan to replace J-7s and very capable, but not in terms of specs and capabilities. J-10C you can argue, but the JF-17 is limited compared to those fighters.

Good luck to any fool who keeps these assumptions just to assuage their own ego. For certain functions - the JF-17 poses a fairly potent threat.

 

[Dreamer]

why are u so concern and trying to correct us all that JFT is not as we thnk it is?

Secondly, why are you bend over to proof that JFT is no match to latest F16V or similar fighters?

lastly, do you understand the comparative analysis is mostly/ never 1 : 1 . and if it is, then it is based on certain aspects of it?

Please elaborate

NO, he shouldn't elaborate anything about Jf-17 in J-31 thread. There's a whole section for JF-17 discussions.

 

[MastanKhan]

why are u so concern and trying to correct us all that JFT is not as we thnk it is?

Secondly, why are you bend over to proof that JFT is no match to latest F16V or similar fighters?

lastly, do you understand the comparative analysis is mostly/ never 1 : 1 . and if it is, then it is based on certain aspects of it?

Please elaborate

Hi,

Because he is indian ---.