PAF Future Acquisition Plans

Oscar said:
Not sure how we got here - but this image was debated to death as the Chinese adoption of the Mig 1.44 (even appearing in the game CnC Generals as the Chinese fighter). However, to keep on topic the designs the PAF was aware of and deciding between were two from Chengdu which are NOT this and then the J-31.

Chengdu has been more innovative overall with its designs with Shenyang picking up reverse engineering ideas more these days.
That being said, a lot of Chinese designs picked up on projects left abandoned in Russia or otherwise to improve on them and create something better.

This is not a knock on their industry but rather a pragmatic approach they take to get results faster.
Speaking of the J-31, regardless of the planform looking a lot like a mix between a F-22 and F-35 - that is not "copying" but rather mathematics in play. Radar waves and their reflections follow physics and maths and certain angles and shapes work the best compromise between signature, aerodynamics and payload. Which is why the J-31, KFX, Kaan and even the F-35 to an extent all look like Children of the F-22.
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Hi,

Most posters don't understand that stealth is very limited to design---. You can only have certain numbers of angles---unlike the conventional aircraft that can build in many a shape and form---( @Deino had a hard time understanding that---actually he did not know about it---I had to teach him) .

So---basically---stealth aircraft of one nation would look like one from another nation---with small differences---due to engineering limitations---.
 
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MastanKhan said:
Hi,

Most posters don't understand that stealth is very limited to design---. You can only have certain numbers of angles---unlike the conventional aircraft that can build in many a shape and form---( @Deino had a hard time understanding that---actually he did not know about it---I had to teach him) .

So---basically---stealth aircraft of one nation would look like one from another nation---with small differences---due to engineering limitations---.
Click to expand...
There is actually an interview of the YF-23 design(or systems) engineer and program manager who is in his 70s now but was shown the B-21 and asked why it looks the same and he said because we’ve gone through all the math already and that’s the best shape that works for that use case to get RCS low. Now there are iterations for that flying wing design - additional changed and so on but in general you’re not seeing flying hexagons because it doesn’t work when you put all of it together.

The same reason why people who were talking to the PAF NASTP borrowing from the YF-23 have trouble understanding why it is still an excellent design for the requirements and is valid today. Just as why the F-16 is still an excellent design today because its NOT art - its math.

There will be different ideas - permutations - and so on - but you cannot change the principles of electromagnetism, fluid dynamics, structural design and so on. Computers will get better, we’ll get more refined values for Planck’s constant and so on - allowing us to be better at design - but the underlying laws wont change.
 
Oscar said:
There is actually an interview of the YF-23 design(or systems) engineer and program manager who is in his 70s now but was shown the B-21 and asked why it looks the same and he said because we’ve gone through all the math already and that’s the best shape that works for that use case to get RCS low. Now there are iterations for that flying wing design - additional changed and so on but in general you’re not seeing flying hexagons because it doesn’t work when you put all of it together.

The same reason why people who were talking to the PAF NASTP borrowing from the YF-23 have trouble understanding why it is still an excellent design for the requirements and is valid today. Just as why the F-16 is still an excellent design today because its NOT art - its math.

There will be different ideas - permutations - and so on - but you cannot change the principles of electromagnetism, fluid dynamics, structural design and so on. Computers will get better, we’ll get more refined values for Planck’s constant and so on - allowing us to be better at design - but the underlying laws wont change.
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Are you sure you meant YF-23? Because YF-23 and B-21 look nothing alike. And YF-23 was not a flying wing at all.
 
Oscar said:
https://www.businessinsider.com/air-superiority-only-possible-short-bursts-us-air-force-officer-2024-Speaking of air superiority systems - @Quwa
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Hi,

Oscar---let us not forget that Ukraine has extremely inferior fighter / strike aircraft---their EW / anti aircraft system not upto the par.

OTOH---russians were too slow and too sloppy to act in a timely fashion to be effective in the initial stages---.

After that---everything went downhill for them---and they have not been able to re-coupe---.
 
MastanKhan said:
Hi,

Oscar---let us not forget that Ukraine has extremely inferior fighter / strike aircraft---their EW / anti aircraft system not upto the par.

OTOH---russians were too slow and too sloppy to act in a timely fashion to be effective in the initial stages---.

After that---everything went downhill for them---and they have not been able to re-coupe---.
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He mentioned it in the context of a China conflict too - so a similar aspect does imply for the subcontinent at least in the opening week or two for India.
 
Oscar said:
He mentioned it in the context of a China conflict too - so a similar aspect does imply for the subcontinent at least in the opening week or two for India.
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"
Russian forces were expected to achieve air superiority in the early days of its full-scale invasion, launched in February 2022, but a series operational mistakes and mishaps prevented it from happening. That failure continues to haunt Moscow, according to Western intelligence reports.

When asked how the US would operate if it found itself fighting without air superiority, a real possibility in a near-peer conflict against an adversary like China or Russia, and how to find windows of opportunity, Allvin said it would likely be necessary to synchronize different capabilities, like electronic warfare, cyber operations, and other kinetic effects".

Hi,

This was the context I was talking about---.
 
hyperman said:
The powerplant is much weaker, the sensor range is much smaller, idk why this is being even debated. You can have amazing range AAM, but assuming there isn't an AWACS to guide them, and you are operating solo, the other guy will have a longer detection range and will launch before you will.

Payload capacity is also smaller. Look I'm not knocking the JF-17, its a good aircraft for what its designed for, to provide bulk. And its probably the most budget friendly option on the market for what it delivers, but this idea that its in the same class an a F-16V or Eurofighter Tranche 4, its just silly.
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USA is the birthplace of capitalism. Everything in the west is inflated in cost due to corporate greed. Just like your medicines, the same inhaler sold in US for 380$, is probably sold for 15$ in China and 5$ in Pakistan. Mind you, that 5$ price still has enough times of profit to make it worth it for the manufacturer to sell, distributor to distribute, wholesaler to stock and retailer to retail. All of them have exactly the same chemical compound and design elements, they all work and work the same way. Somehow US thinks it should cost 380$ and their brain washed masses think its a fair price.

The inhaler sold in US for 380$ is probably also made in China and just shipped with a different label or it might just be assembled in US, with components coming from China. What I mean to tell you is, westerns have no price/cost perspective. Because they have no clue what actually anything costs, you pick anything, just name it and it would be sold dozens time cheaper in another country having same quality & functionality.

A mobile case is 20-40 bucks in US, China can design, make, package, dispatch and deliver it to US shore in like 4$ a piece. Perspective is improtant...
 
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MastanKhan said:
Hi,

Oscar---let us not forget that Ukraine has extremely inferior fighter / strike aircraft---their EW / anti aircraft system not upto the par.

OTOH---russians were too slow and too sloppy to act in a timely fashion to be effective in the initial stages---.

After that---everything went downhill for them---and they have not been able to re-coupe---.
Click to expand...
It also has to do with the Russian war fighting doctrine. They used their air force as arial artillery shooting of unguided rockets and dumb bombs from low level, thus high attrition at the hands of SAMs, esp shoulder launched ones.
They have adapted but gave the Ukrainian forces enough time to get western radars and AD systems which they can't counter.
Had Russian AF used its strategic bombers early in the war, outcome would have been very different now. Possibly they didn't want the type of destruction now happening to the cities by the front lines as their goal was to install a pro-kremlin regime.
 
UserUsing said:
Everything in the west in inflated in cost due to corporate greed. Just like your medicines, the same inhaler sold in US for 380$, is sold for 15$ in China and 5$ in Pakistan. Mind you, that 5$ price still has enough times of profit to make it worth it for the manufacturer to sell, distributor to distribute, wholesaler to stock and retailer to retail. All of them have exactly the same chemical compound and design elements, they all work and work the same way. Somehow US thinks it should cost 380$ and their brain washed masses think its a fair price.

The inhaler sold in US for 380$ is probably also made in China and just shipped with a different label or it might just be assembled in US, with components coming from China. What I mean to tell you is, westerns have no price/cost perspective. Because they have no clue what actually anything costs, you pick anything, just name it and it would be sold dozens time cheaper in another country having same quality & functionality.

A mobile case is 20-40 bucks in US, China can design, make, package, dispatch and deliver it to US shore in like 4$ a piece. Perspective is improtant...
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Hi,

I had a shoulder scan done in the USA---cost $3000.

I later had another done in pakistan---cost me $80

Same time frame a few years ago. ie---375 time more
 
lasik in USA cost 3000 to 6000 usd, same technology using same equipment cost in Pakistan 500 USD. hair transplant in USA cost 10k to 15 k usd, same procedure with same level of equipment cost 3k usd in turkey ... forget about Pakistan
 
Indian pilots ,physically and mentally are not capable of flying a high tech jet fighter like F-35 and SU-57 .
An example is , why Abhi Nandan picked up Mig-21 .
 
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