Pakistan, Kuwait discuss expanded defence pact: report

[Owaiz]

You don't sell insurance on a house that is already on fire. The Kuwaitis may be desperate, but they are not stupid. They will pay, but only for commitments that will impose very high risks and costs on Pakistan.

The Saudi situation was unique and different because of historical ties and the fig leaf that the pact was directed at Israel or even Yemen. Even so, those who negotiated on behalf of Pakistan seem to have sold the nation short. In return for the risks it has taken on, Pakistan has not even been fully compensated for the rupture with the UAE, which was one of the consequences of this pact. In the case of Kuwait , the risks are much greater than any compensation that can be reasonably expected.

 

[hussain0216]

You know, a lot of people don't understand one very important factor...

Our conflict with India is a FROZEN conflict. Meaning it can reignite at anytime.

We have an insurgency inside our own borders, and hostile neighbors to our east and our west. Then you want to go and play security guard for the gulf? Pray tell what do you think will happen if this war leads to a regional conflagration in the middle east and our Pakistan Security Services PVT Limited are put to the test?

What then?

And all these people talking about LETS GO! SECURITY GUARD!!! YAY!!! Are you going to be the one taking bombs and bullets? No, it will be some young man from Kharian who doesn't even know why he is there or what he is doing there in the first place.

I am very patriotic, but I do not confuse patriotism with stupidity. All this that is going on this is not a game of checkers, its Chess... "Big Boy Chess" that some people feel like playing, these chess pieces they will burn fingers.

You know that the King is the most important piece on the board in a game of chess, but the king is also the most vulnerable, that is why the phrase Shah Mat exists... "the King is helpless".

...

We would do well to remember this!

You are of course right about manpower and weaponry constraints when we have multiple enemies

However, if those states wish to fund further weapons purchases and raising more Pakistani divisions so we have extra capacity to support them, then it's a win win

Pakistan will be lookin for complete finding of multiple weapons purchases as well as funding for weapons programs

You can look for the negatives and you will find them

But we need to be clear about the opportunities

 

[Bratva]

Lets take a short walk down memory lane...

Key Geopolitical events in the gulf from 2018-2021
View attachment 206835

Kuwait's diplomatic relationship with Pakistan 2012-2021:
View attachment 206836

These bastards kept us away for a decade, for a decade they hired INDIANS and HINDUS, empowered the Indian economy with trade and labor exchange... Then in 2021 with the rise of ISIL in the Levant and regional states now building little private armies outside of their own borders - the Kuwaiti's suddenly woke up and remembered oh yes PAKISTAN... The FRIENDLY LOCAL IDIOTS! Throw them a bone or two, they will forget 10 years of mistreatment.

HERE IS WHAT PAKISTAN SHOULD SAY IF IT HAD ANY SENSE!

One of the key points of this defense pact is energy security. Isn't energy security or let's put it in this way, the cheapest oil we can get is the need of hour after strait of Hormuz issue?

Where do you think we can get the cheapest oil if not for such pacts? or the self-respect is more important than the energy security right now?

If i recall correctly, Kuwait is providing us diesel and several large shipments were delivered during cooldown period recently. Our relations with UAE ain't that great. We can't rely own Saudi completely. Rest is Kuwait. Iran is not in position to provide us Oil/Diesel/Lubricants.

In recent past multiple countries had to swallow their ego/self-respect just to get good business deals. India-USA, Canada-USA, EU-USA and ongoing tiff of Greenland. Qatar humiliating India but India bought large amount of Gas from them.

 

[RescueRanger]

You are of course right about manpower and weaponry constraints when we have multiple enemies

Thank you for agreeing with me brother.

However, if those states wish to fund further weapons purchases and raising more Pakistani divisions so we have extra capacity to support them, then it's a win win

Rapidly raising divisions is a disaster, we learned this in 1971 with our experiment of the 33rd infantry division.

Pakistan will be lookin for complete finding of multiple weapons purchases as well as funding for weapons programs

Again, what is the turnaround for this? 3 months? 5 months? a year? We just don't have the supply chain unless we go to Alibaba

You can look for the negatives and you will find them

Do you know why I am looking at negatives? Because I have seen WAR! That is why!

But we need to be clear about the opportunities

What opportunities? I am genuinely curious, please share.

I am not trying to be a negative Nancy; I am just looking at things objectively.

 

[RescueRanger]

One of the key points of this defense pact is energy security. Isn't energy security or let's put it in this way, the cheapest oil we can get is the need of hour after strait of Hormuz issue?

Where do you think we can get the cheapest oil if not for such pacts? or the self-respect is more important than the energy security right now?

If i recall correctly, Kuwait is providing us diesel and several large shipments were delivered during cooldown period recently. Our relations with UAE ain't that great. We can't rely own Saudi completely. Rest is Kuwait. Iran is not in position to provide us Oil/Diesel/Lubricants.

In recent past multiple countries had to swallow their ego/self-respect just to get good business deals. India-USA, Canada-USA, EU-USA and ongoing tiff of Greenland. Qatar humiliating India but India bought large amount of Gas from them.

Again, this goes back to my original post, do we have the spare personnel to commit to this? We have approx. 25,000 personnel assigned to counterinsurgency inside Balochistan alone. This figure doesn't include troops and personnel on IBOs and those operating in KPK and elsewhere or those who have been ringfenced to protect CPEC related operations.

How would we go about fulfilling our side of this bargain? What power projection do we have that we can extend? Tactical advisor? Personnel?

What would be the cost in terms of projected loss of lives and material in case of a confrontation? What impact would this have on our borders and inside Balochistan? Would our neighbors capitalize on this opportunity to conduct limited harassment strikes?

 

[hussain0216]

Thank you for agreeing with me brother.

Rapidly raising divisions is a disaster, we learned this in 1971 with our experiment of the 33rd infantry division.

Again, what is the turnaround for this? 3 months? 5 months? a year? We just don't have the supply chain unless we go to Alibaba

Do you know why I am looking at negatives? Because I have seen WAR! That is why!

What opportunities? I am genuinely curious, please share.

I am not trying to be a negative Nancy; I am just looking at things objectively.

We are talking about multiple years and decades

We are talking about the future

We want J35s we want J10s, we might even want KAAN

We have made smash ER into a 450km-500km missile, we will want funding for a smash 2 that is 800km plus

We have multiple programs that we could negotiate funding for including sales


We will want Indians frozen out, we will request more visas and work permits for Pakistani

UAE has made a mistake and now it's stuck, to both counter it Pakistan needs to be smart


If we want to be more independent of the west then we need to make these alliances with Muslim countries

Sitting won't achieve anything


Remember this: if we won't do it, then someone else will step in,
The Arabs will be forced to rely on the u.s, maybe even India, Turkey

It's up to Pakistan to take the steps and make sure we are in prime position


We hold no ill will or grudges to Iran, and we can use our positive position to help direct the Muslim world in a more positive direction against mutual enemies

 

[RescueRanger]

We are talking about multiple years and decades

We are talking about the future

We want J35s we want J10s, we might even want KAAN

We have made smash ER into a 450km-500km missile, we will want funding for a smash 2 that is 800km plus

We have multiple programs that we could negotiate funding for including sales


We will want Indians frozen out, we will request more visas and work permits for Pakistani

UAE has made a mistake and now it's stuck, to both counter it Pakistan needs to be smart


If we want to be more independent of the west then we need to make these alliances with Muslim countries

Sitting won't achieve anything


Remember this: if we won't do it, then someone else will step in,
The Arabs will be forced to rely on the u.s, maybe even India, Turkey

It's up to Pakistan to take the steps and make sure we are in prime position


We hold no ill will or grudges to Iran, and we can use our positive position to help direct the Muslim world in a more positive direction against mutual enemies

Yes all this is perfect, we need all of this, but what about the immediate term?

 

[Bratva]

Again, this goes back to my original post, do we have the spare personnel to commit to this? We have approx. 25,000 personnel assigned to counterinsurgency inside Balochistan alone. This figure doesn't include troops and personnel on IBOs and those operating in KPK and elsewhere or those who have been ringfenced to protect CPEC related operations.

How would we go about fulfilling our side of this bargain? What power projection do we have that we can extend? Tactical advisor? Personnel?

What would be the cost in terms of projected loss of lives and material in case of a confrontation? What impact would this have on our borders and inside Balochistan? Would our neighbors capitalize on this opportunity to conduct limited harassment strikes?

The answer to your post was/is in article itself. Specifically this paragraph.

including "thousands of Pakistani troops on the ground, fighter jets, drones, an air defence system, and other defence-related facilities," said a Pakistani government official.
It is unclear whether Pakistan is willing to go this far, given that its agreement with Saudi Arabia was the result of a decades-old close alliance with Riyadh.

"Kuwait's wish list includes everything," said a Pakistani security official with knowledge of the talks. "But let me be clear about one thing: We are not and we cannot consider a deployment of combat troops at this stage."


Taking Saudi deployment as an example. Pakistan can provide Airdefense, Counter drone ops and fighter jet detachments to augment the Kuwaiti airdefense systems. Solution of Kuwait for Iranian drones is to unload patriot missiles on them. Their CUAS is very weak. Their airdefense is not properly networked and hence they miss lot of drones that comes into Kuwait. The PAF experience in networking the airdefense elements and extending the network to airborne assets is what Kuwait would like to borrow.

Our first and foremost thought always goes to army and providing troops while we completely ignore PAF becoming a poster child in defense deals and hence the reason JF-17 and Airdefense detachment is in Saudia.

Is it hard to share our airforce assets with gulf in exchange for energy security? These airborne/airdefense assets can be relocated immediately to Pak incase of any threat from india.

 

[RescueRanger]

The answer to your post was/is in article itself. Specifically this paragraph.

including "thousands of Pakistani troops on the ground, fighter jets, drones, an air defence system, and other defence-related facilities," said a Pakistani government official.
It is unclear whether Pakistan is willing to go this far, given that its agreement with Saudi Arabia was the result of a decades-old close alliance with Riyadh.

"Kuwait's wish list includes everything," said a Pakistani security official with knowledge of the talks. "But let me be clear about one thing: We are not and we cannot consider a deployment of combat troops at this stage."


Taking Saudi deployment as an example. Pakistan can provide Airdefense, Counter drone ops and fighter jet detachments to augment the Kuwaiti airdefense systems. Solution of Kuwait for Iranian drones is to unload patriot missiles on them. Their CUAS is very weak. Their airdefense is not properly networked and hence they miss lot of drones that comes into Kuwait. The PAF experience in networking the airdefense elements and extending the network to airborne assets is what Kuwait would like to borough.

Our first and foremost thought always goes to army and providing troops while we completly ignore PAF becoming a poster child in defense deals and hence the reason JF-17 and Airdefense detachment is in Saudia.

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Strength Profile:

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Not sure what we are bringing to the table if I am being honest. Except TAC ADV role or our BMs.

 

[RealNapster]

This is not policy it is opportunity, national security is for many countries a marketplace, and Kuwait is a buyer and Pakistan is a provider.

Now that Pakistan have resolved all of its internal conflicts, destroyed all Pakistan based and neighbour's supported terrorists groups and experienced no-terrorism-related-death for 3 consecutive years. I agree Pakistan is now in a position to tap in that market. Otherwise we dont need a bigger army any more because all of our internal and external conflicts are over.

 

[Bratva]

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Strength Profile:

---
Not sure what we are bringing to the table if I am being honest. Except TAC ADV role or our BMs.

We can assume and analyze based on the sources in Pakistan. We don't know any sources in Kuwaiti military establishment hence we are relying on what is revealed in the article. . You and me don't know the intentions or capability gaps on Kuwaiti side and why they haven't approached the USA or EU to cover those gaps. What we do know based on the article that Kuwait asked Pakistani help on everything. It means they know something about Pakistani capabilities that make them confident in securing their airspace.

So what is on the paper and what is officially know about Kuwaiti military capabilities is not making Kuwaiti feel confident enough that they can do it by themselves. So how about we discuss things based on what is said in article?

 

[Bratva]

Now that Pakistan have resolved all of its internal conflicts, destroyed all Pakistan based and neighbour's supported terrorists groups and experienced no-terrorism-related-death for 3 consecutive years. I agree Pakistan is now in a position to tap in that market. Otherwise we dont need a bigger army any more because all of our internal and external conflicts are over.

You forgot to mention Pakistan is energy independent and oil is being sold like cheap water.

 

[RescueRanger]

We can assume and analyze based on the sources in Pakistan. We don't know any sources in Kuwaiti military establishment hence we are relying on what is revealed in the artice. . You and me don't know the intentions or capability gaps on kuwaiti side and why they haven't approached the USA or EU to cover those gaps. What we do know based on the article that Kuwait asked Pakistani help on everything. It means they know something about Pakistani capabilities that they are confident would help them securing their airspace.

So what is on the paper and what is officially know about Kuwaiti military capabilities is not making Kuwaiti feel confident enough that they can do it by themselves. So how about we discuss things based on what is said in article?

I am more concerned about what will happen to our people that what is discussed in some article. Monsoon is around the corner, we have food insecurity, energy insecurity, a rampant insurgency within our borders, not to mention energy insecurity and a weak economy.

This doesn't include hostile neighbors to our left and our right. Should we add one more to that list? What is the cost and what is the benefit...? That is what I am interested in.

 

[RealNapster]

You forgot to mention Pakistan is energy independent and oil is being sold like cheap water.

Obviously. Thanks to our offshore drilling success and those huge oil and gas reserves in baluchistan. Which private companies were only recently able to drill because of bestest security situation. Now pakistan even export oil.

 

[bafxet]

Lets take a short walk down memory lane...

Key Geopolitical events in the gulf from 2018-2021
View attachment 206835

Kuwait's diplomatic relationship with Pakistan 2012-2021:
View attachment 206836

These bastards kept us away for a decade, for a decade they hired INDIANS and HINDUS, empowered the Indian economy with trade and labor exchange... Then in 2021 with the rise of ISIL in the Levant and regional states now building little private armies outside of their own borders - the Kuwaiti's suddenly woke up and remembered oh yes PAKISTAN... The FRIENDLY LOCAL IDIOTS! Throw them a bone or two, they will forget 10 years of mistreatment.

HERE IS WHAT PAKISTAN SHOULD SAY IF IT HAD ANY SENSE!

Yeah, Kuwait sucks.