TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[FuturePAF]

A lot of development is in the works to improve the F-135 Engine. The current limitations will be addressed, and the resulting engine is expected to exceed the capabilities across all domains, including thermal cooling, or at least that’s what’s claimed.

For the KAAN, better to get the ball rolling fielding flying aircraft with what ever engine is available and progress on the engine side as quickly as possible.

 

[Archie]

Israel has F-35s , still ordered more F-15s


Problem is time ,, not technology or capability

USA gives limited F110 Engines for 20 KAAN Fighter Jets as of 2028
Turkish indigenous Turbofan Engine will be ready in 2032-2035 period

and TAI will produce 2 KAAN monthly ( 24 KAAN annualy )

That means . Turkish Air Force could have 100 KAAN Figher Jets with indigenous engine in 2036-2038 period

so Turkish Air Force needs an interim fighter jet solution until 2035 ( for the next 10 years )


therefore , Turkiye buys 40 new F-16 Block70 and modernize its 235 F-16 fleet for $25 billion

also 40 Eurofighters on agenda

Israel doesn't have a domestic 5th gen fighter program to brag about
Also they use F15s against Hamas and Hezbulla in Gaza and Lebanon
Terrorist groups don't have airforce or SAM network that can fire back
Also Israel is not spending 35 billion USD to upgrade it's 350 odd older F16 and F15s in service
Infact the 50 odd F15ex they buy will replace some of the older F15E they currently operate in the same way as the F35 is Replacing their Older Block 40 F16s though gradually

 

[MMM-E]

If KAAN was as capable as Turkiye claims
They would not be spending 25 billion USD in buying and upgrading their F16s

According to your logic

If F-35 was as capable as USA claims
Israel would not be spending Tens of billions of USD in buying and upgrading their F-15s and F16s

Israel doesn't have a domestic 5th gen fighter program to brag about
Also they use F15s against Hamas and Hezbulla in Gaza and Lebanon
Terrorist groups don't have airforce or SAM network that can fire back
Also Israel is not spending 35 billion USD to upgrade it's 350 odd older F16 and F15s in service
Infact the 50 odd F15ex they buy will replace some of the older F15E they currently operate in the same way as the F35 is Replacing their Older Block 40 F16s though gradually

Israel buys 75 F-35s and Israel has 285 F-15 , F-16 Fighter Jets
still ordered more 25 F-15


Turkiye has its own KAAN project but only 20 KAAN will be produced with American Engine
Turkiye needs more 15 years to produce 100 KAAN with indigenous turbofan Engine




so Turkish Air Force needs an interim fighter jet solution until 2035 ( for the next 10 years )
also Turkiye urgently needs new Fighter Jets to replace outdated F-4 fleet


therefore , Turkiye buys 40 new F-16 Block70 and modernize its 235 F-16 fleet for $25 billion

 

[LeGenD]

Turbine inlet temperature

F-110-GE-129 = 1510 °C
F-135 = 1980 °C

The F-135 engine runs at 1980 degrees, meaning a very high heat signature. The F35 has structural cooling to reduce this signature.

However, with this cooling, the heat signature still cannot decrease to the level of the F110.


F110 works at lower temperatures than F135. This means that it is close to F35 in terms of heat signature.
View attachment 15210

Critics of the F-35 claim that while its stealth design denies its detection by radars, infrared imagers can easily spot the aircraft at long range, by its heat signature


KAAN with F-110 Engine
View attachment 15198

If KAAN has a structural cooling system (I know it does), its heat signature would be even lower.

Low Observable Axisymmetric Nozzle
Before the development of the F-35 low observable axisymmetric nozzle (LOAN), signature demands typically drove nozzles to fixed, structurally integrated affairs (e.g., F-117). They had to have very high aspect ratio designs (e.g., F-117) or highly capable but heavy two-dimensional systems (e.g., F-22), as illustrated in Image 1. Departing from what was then the state of the art, industry and CRAD efforts developed multiple nozzle configurations to create a LOAN for the F-35. The F135 engine with a LOAN balanced the requirements of LO and efficient aeromechanical performance. This resulted in a lightweight configuration with reduced radar cross-section. --- Wiegand et al (2018)



There are additional internal considerations:



In addition to the above, airframe heating due to jet engine(s) can be reduced by use of cooling vents:




Much of the criticism directed towards F-35 stem from ignorance. Some are fishing for valuable information. Lockheed Martin has disclosed so much about F-35 to dispel bad assumptions from time to time. Pentagon could tell the company to keep it mum and let people assume that F-35 is a dud. But Lockheed Martin disclosures are in part due to F-35 being approved for exports and relevant marketing decisions.

 

[samejjangir]

Turbine inlet temperature

F-110-GE-129 = 1510 °C
F-135 = 1980 °C

The F-135 engine runs at 1980 degrees, meaning a very high heat signature. The F35 has structural cooling to reduce this signature.

However, with this cooling, the heat signature still cannot decrease to the level of the F110.


F110 works at lower temperatures than F135. This means that it is close to F35 in terms of heat signature.
View attachment 15210

Critics of the F-35 claim that while its stealth design denies its detection by radars, infrared imagers can easily spot the aircraft at long range, by its heat signature


KAAN with F-110 Engine
View attachment 15198

If KAAN has a structural cooling system (I know it does), its heat signature would be even lower.



SUPERCRUISE Capability

-- F-35 cannot do supercruise
-- KAAN can not do supercruise with F-110 Engine


TECHNOLOGY

-- BURFIS AESA Radar with GaN technology ... ( 2.000+ T/R modules )

-- with AI-enhanced battlefield awareness ( 360° situational awareness with 4 AESA radars - sensor fusion with EOTS , IRST with unique configuration )

-- high-capacity networking , AI, data fusion

-- excellent EW capabilities with ASELSAN FEWS -- Fighter Electronic Warfare Suite

-- Increased-range BVR Missile (GOKHAN ramjet powered long range networked a2a missile )

-- full data-to-decision (D2D) capability for multi-layered distributed team of diverse manned aircraft working in concert with unmanned types ( KAAN , ANKA-3, KIZILELMA )

-- DIRCM Directed Infrared Countermeasure System by high power LASER
( Only KAAN and SU-57 )

-- HMDS (Helmet Display System) with AI-enhanced battlefield awareness
( Only KAAN and F-35 )



Stealth DESIGN and Composite Material

--Internal weapon bay for stealth flight capability

-- RAM ( Radar Absorber Material )
KAAN with advanced magnetic coating and RAM panel layer it could RCS value for X band 10GHz as 0.003 m2 [ -25dbsqm ]


Air inlet Ducts : KAAN has S routing duct to hide Engine comprassor blades from direct enemy radar signals .. it can be also RAM coating on inner surface of duct

RCS improved to 0.003 m2 [ -25dbsqm ] for the KAAN achieved balance against the F-35 in head to head engagement

Also KAAN has IRST could perform a contribution to engage to F-35 beyond the 34 km

View attachment 15206
View attachment 15207
View attachment 15208


We remind that KAAN assumptions in the calculation are taken in worst value.




RESULT

If F35 is a 5th generation with F-135 Engine
KAAN is also a 5th generation with the F-110 Engine

View attachment 15209

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/376682089_TF-23_KAAN_TURKISH_5th_Gen_Fighter_Jet

https://twitter.com/x/status/1655143608171855873

Heat signature of engine? Seriously? Do you know that all stealth planes are mostly frontal stealth only? No one can hide the jet flame heat no matter what. The higher engine temperature helps in lowering engine weight and being more fuel efficient. That is why the TWR of F135 is much higher than F110. Calling F110 as stealth engine is ridiculous

 

[LeGenD]

It is too early to talk about what KAAN can do. Mission-capable operational variant will not be possible before 2028 (generous estimate) and much about it can be different at the time. One can have a wish-list about what an aircraft can do on the drawing board but it is another thing to have the industrial capability to come up with solutions to make it possible. It is easy to critic stuff from distance.

Meanwhile, F-35 will receive a significant Block 4 update and uplifted to 5++ gen.

One more thing. F-15EX is a very powerful aircraft. It is the only aircraft outside 5th gen to have scored hits on 5th gen fighters in mock drills but details are withheld. No aircraft outside 5th gen came close in comparison. It is hilarious to see people talking about wiping the floor with F-15EX in hypothetical fights. If this makes you happy. LMAO.

 

[MMM-E]

F-35 has many problems because of F-135 Engine and single engine configuration

Whole World knows about it


-- F-135 Engine lacks the ability to properly manage the heat generated by the F-35's systems
That increases the Engine's wear


F-35 has never reached its full operational capability and already needs updates and tweaks, including a New engine


F-35 Engine Running Too Hot Due To ‘Under-Speccing,’ Upgrade Now Vital (Updated)

F-35 Engine Running Too Hot Due To 'Under-Speccing,' Upgrade Now Vital (Updated)

The F-35's engine is having to work harder to cool and power the aircraft's systems, leading to a logistical mess.

www.twz.com

Vibrations caused another F-35 engine to fail before Texas mishap

Vibrations caused another F-35 engine to fail before Texas mishap

The March 2020 engine failure led to an investigation into the vibration problem. Neither was immediately disclosed.

www.defensenews.com

The engine issue concerns the aircraft's “power and thermal management system,” which transfers pressure from the fighter's single engine

F-35 Jet’s Overworked Engines May Cost Pentagon $38 Billion in Upkeep

Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35 may need $38 billion in extra engine overhauls in coming decades to meet increasing demands to help cool radar and other components of the fighter jet, according to government auditors.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[VersusChristi]

Turbine inlet temperature

F-110-GE-129 = 1510 °C
F-135 = 1980 °C

The F-135 engine runs at 1980 degrees, meaning a very high heat signature. The F35 has structural cooling to reduce this signature.

F-35 is LO aircraft alright but it was never meant to be a specialized VLO air superiority fighter like F-22. It was meant to be a general purpose "more affordable" (to America and its rich allies that is) workhorse. Further it was meant to fullfil a number of requirement of three different branches in US military. It does that nicely.

One of that requirement was VTOL. This is why F-35 does not have a sunken engine like F-22 (IR stealth) and has a single very powerful engine. It (in some variants) NEEDS to be able to turn the entire thurst 90 degree to achieve VTOL, meaning it can not hide its IR signature like F-22 or YF-23 which have sunken engines and lower turbine inlet temperature twin engines.

So yes, F-35 has compromised IR stealth as compared to F-22 but then it gets to fulfill other requirements.

 

[LeGenD]

F-35 has many problems because of F-135 Engine and single engine configuration

Whole World knows about it


-- F-135 Engine lacks the ability to properly manage the heat generated by the F-35's systems
That increases the Engine's wear


F-35 has never reached its full operational capability and already needs updates and tweaks, including a New engine


F-35 Engine Running Too Hot Due To ‘Under-Speccing,’ Upgrade Now Vital (Updated)

F-35 Engine Running Too Hot Due To 'Under-Speccing,' Upgrade Now Vital (Updated)

The F-35's engine is having to work harder to cool and power the aircraft's systems, leading to a logistical mess.

www.twz.com

Vibrations caused another F-35 engine to fail before Texas mishap

Vibrations caused another F-35 engine to fail before Texas mishap

The March 2020 engine failure led to an investigation into the vibration problem. Neither was immediately disclosed.

www.defensenews.com

Name one aircraft that performs flawlessly. There is not one out there. Every aircraft have problems. Complex stealth jets are even more likely to show issues. It is just that F-35 has received far more negative press than others. But the problems can be addressed in time.

China has spent 20 years developing J-20, it is still work in progress. But WE do not see Chinese press highlighting its problems. Chinese state does not want to lower morale of its people.

 

[VersusChristi]

Well OP is barking up the wrong tree. Higher Turbine inlet temperature means more efficient conversion of fuel into thrust - a good thing. Also, higher inlet temperature does not necessarily mean hotter exhaust emission. If the F110 was adequate for fifth generation platforms the Pentagon wouldn't spend billions on a new engine. The engine on the F-35 does much more than power the jet. The F-135 is designed to dramatically minimize IR emissions beyond 30NM. In other words, the nozzel and by-pass is designed to quickly dessipate heat so the aircraft is hard to detect at distances greater than 30NM.

Actually, I will say, F-35's ONLY goal was NEVER to have a VLO in IR domain like F-22 does. It is still LO due to its excellent thermal management and nozzle design + material selection. F-22 goes for VLO by having sunken nozzle design.

F-35 chose VTOL in its place and sacrificed IR VLO for VTOL, which is why its nozzles need to be exposed!

It was a design choice from the beginning. US has a specialist fighter with VLO in all aspect for that purpose. That is F-22.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Real question is will uncle sam be able to derial the project
Turkey needs it's own engine

According to the Turkish defense analyst, Mete Yarar, in the Haber Global TV channel, KAAN's engine prototype to be integrated into the a/c will be ready by 2028. All the building blocks in modular fashion are being manufactured now.

*The source is in Turkish. Sorry, no English version is available. The 19th century British diplomats were advised to learn Turkish for a reason.

 

[MMM-E]

Name one aircraft that performs flawlessly. There is not one out there. Every aircraft have problems. It is just that F-35 has received far more negative press than others.

F-22 didn't have many problems like F-35
Experts says responding the thrust demand with single engine for a 5th gen
fighter is giant mistake

It is necessary more fuel burnt in single engine means more thermal signature
and to reduce the F-35's thermal signature, used additional cooling countermeasures that no other Fighter Jet required.

And F-135 Engine lacks the ability to properly manage the heat generated by the F-35's systems


I dont want to talk about the F-35 anymore

You Guys what do you think about KAAN with F-110 Engine ?

Can KAAN have 5th generation features with its F110 engine against F-15 , RAFALE , Eurofighter , SU-35 ?

 

[LeGenD]

Both US and Israel have successfully utilized F-35 over Syria, the latter since 2018.

Israeli F-35I Adir hits the area protected by S-300 and S-400 SAM systems in Syria

Israel carried out an aerial attack southeast of Syria’s northern Aleppo province late Monday, reported Reuters quoting a Syrian military official. The unidentified military official, quoted by the…

www.globaldefensecorp.com

Stealth Matter: The USAF F-35A Struck Syrian position protected by S-300 and S-400

American F-35 fighters attacked the area of the Syrian army covered by S-400 and S-300 learned GDC quoting the USAF source. The USAF revealed on Monday, despite the fact that Russia and Syria dec…

www.globaldefensecorp.com

If this jet fighter had significant overheating problems, these operations would not be possible. Common sense, people.

Sorry but actual combat operations tell a different story than subjective noises. The F-35 definitely works in complex threat environments and/or as intended. Much of the criticism directed towards it is overblown.

 

[dbc]

You have retorted like a true Turk. Tebrikler.

Keep on posting on the Turkish defense matters.

Dogs bark but the caravan moves on.....

Do you have anything useful to contribute to this thread? Please stay on topic.

 

[VersusChristi]

So F-110 Engine doesnt block KAAN to have 5th generation capabilities against F-15 , F-16 , SU-35 , RAFALE , EUROFİGHTER

You will have other considerations with F-110. Thrust to Weight ratio is one. F-135 in its non afterburner thurst regime can generate 1.5 times thurst as compared to F-110 for more or less same engine weight.

This means WAY MORE range, fuel carried or payload carried for F-35. This also means to match similar thurst you will need a twin engine design. Which means your aircraft now has TWO heat sources to hide. Also it means you have larger wing area and overall larger airframe, KAAN has about 1.5 times the wing area of F-35, which itself adds to higher RCS of KAAN as compared to F-35.

Now compared to say Rafale? I think Rafale will have similar frontal RCS as KAAN (Rafale is simply sm) but then Rafale has advantage of having a world class EW suite which KAAN will find itself hard to acquire because it does not have the experience as france does.